Oh Gawd
So sorry to mislead you Marco ' the photo's were just that ' which Dave sent me in his Soundhifi email, i don't have the MK new platter .
Hope you enjoyed the footie and England's new Star Goalkeeper, all of Scotland must be so pleased:)
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Oh Gawd
So sorry to mislead you Marco ' the photo's were just that ' which Dave sent me in his Soundhifi email, i don't have the MK new platter .
Hope you enjoyed the footie and England's new Star Goalkeeper, all of Scotland must be so pleased:)
[QUOTE=Mike_New;129101] There is a particular user in the US (Canada really) who is using my platter with two copper mats plus center weight!! That make the total weight about 10Kg!!!!! and his initial response to me is very impressive, however it is not my position to pre-empt any comments he may post in the near future. He is probably taking his time over doing a series of subjective listening tests. ./QUOTE]
I did get the new platter from Mike - after some small modifications to a high capacitor on the drive board, so that the platter turned freely, the platter was finally ready to play.
The turntable is now using Mike's bearing and his 12 pound aluminium platter
+ 2 copper platters ( 2X4 pounds) + the concave Oracle platter + the 3 pound brass center weight.
The TT is also on a maple hard wood piece and using the multi-element cones from Adona corp (http://www.adonacorporation.com/tweaks.html)
My findings are compared to the previous iteration with the standard Technics platter and the 3 copper platters & the Oracle mat.
Using the Mike New custom aluminium platter definitely brings far superior sonics still using the modified RB 250 and the clearaudio virtuoso cart. :
1) increased depth of field
2) better separation of instruments
3) more sonic and voice information & I hear the lyrics more clearly
4) more air and space
5) more layers of sound
6) much better precision of instruments placement
7) more bass
The technics with the custom bearing and custom platter makes the whole sound incredibly lush, stable and every note and voices are held to the right pitch,
But this time the pitch is not only dead on, but with much more body, depth and substance
Its a whole new & different turntable now - like a 4 cylinder car morphed into an 8 cylinder : does all with greater ease and oumf !
When I played the famous solo by Victoria de Los Angeles, in the Faure requiem, the voice is evermore stable, forcefull and full bodied -
I also like to play Peter Gabriel " Security " album for all its phenomenal bass and complex music layers & I was not disappointed
as the bass is more deep and clean instead of being bloated.
I suspect that the original platter with the rubber undercoating does not help matters at all, as it may very well dull the sonics when I used 3 copper platters;
The 12 pound custom aliminium platter + the two copper matts makes for a much much more improoved sound.
Interestingly, I first tried the small chrome Adona cones under the maple base and pointing down into the 1.25 inch granite piece held by the Target wall TT mount.
The difference with the larger muti-element cones made the sound more open and clearner - go figure...
Getting back to the Mike New platter and bearing, I am a very happy camper & will do more listening and tests in the near future,
Yves
Hi Yves,
Sounds fab! Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the new platter.
That sort of thing worries me, though, as I don't recall Mike mentioning in his original instructions that this would be necessary. Unfortunately it takes this modification yet further away from being 'fit & play' for the non-technically minded.Quote:
after some small modifications to a high capacitor on the drive board, so that the platter turned freely, the platter was finally ready to play.
However, that aside, it certainly sounds as if the sonic results of using the new platter are very positive :)
All we need now on this side of the pond is a sample to listen to, so that people here can form some meaningful conclusions...............................
Marco.
Lol - no worries, Chris! It was just the way you came in with your pics at that particular moment :eyebrows:Quote:
Oh Gawd
So sorry to mislead you Marco ' the photo's were just that ' which Dave sent me in his Soundhifi email, i don't have the MK new platter .
Hope you enjoyed the footie and England's new Star Goalkeeper, all of Scotland must be so pleased
Regarding the match last night, I thought you guys were unlucky. On any other night you'd have won fairly comfortably. I'm sure Rob Green will recover to have a good tournament, as will the rest of the England team, and I still think they will get to the semis :)
Marco.
Marco ' i would suggest a visit to Dave's , have a listen and then he can fit it for you .
You know you want it , just in time for that bake off :) .
Go on Go on .
And have you tried it without the plethora of extra platters, mats and weights?Quote:
The turntable is now using Mike's bearing and his 12 pound aluminium platter
+ 2 copper platters ( 2X4 pounds) + the concave Oracle platter + the 3 pound brass center weight.
Yes it does seem a tad excessive , i would have thought 1 copper mat should suffice ?
Or just the Herbies mat on top of the MN
I was going to ask the same thing...
How much is each copper platter?
After this amount spent on the standard article, one would think a complete turntable upgrade would have been in order and there are some fascinating alternatives around out there that may not need several copper mats, an "orrible" concave platter and yet more mass plonked on top of the record...
Yes, it has occurred to me to listen only to the new Mike New platter.Quote:
Originally Posted by YNWaN
The fast answer is that I would have had to reconfigure the arm board height.
as I reversed the arm board depression so that its now level with the turntable plinth. The arm board comes from audiomods in the UK http://www.audiomods.co.uk/technicsarm.html
So I simply kept two copper mats, instead of 3, because the New platter is a little bit higher than the standard/original platter.
I am to soon get the micrometer arm from audiomods & it may have the adjustment range to just try the Mike New platter or with one copper platter.
Also, I made other modifications to the TT such as getting rid of the feet; using a hardwood support on its belly and binding the innards with removable silicone type weatherproofing (see previous posts)
As for the cost of the copper platter from http://www.ttweights.com/stcopmat.html
the matt is not cheap at around $300. US. - I never paid that kind of money since at one point they were selling slightly imperfect copper mats and the new copper mat was then way less expensive when the company started out.
The last one I just bought this June sold for $125. ; it had such a small defect I had to look for it... To get that deal, I simply wrote to them & asked if they had a less than perfect copper matt they would sell at a good price. (This is the fourth copper mat I got, since I will sell later my 3 motor 80 pound modified Oracle that also uses 2 copper mats & a 3 pound center weight.)
The small modification to the drive board to allow the New 12 pound platter to turn freely is not Mike’s fault ( as the platter was meant to readily install & play), as he is apparently using a different model. My turntable & power supply was bought in March 2010 from Kabusa http://kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/. That drive board has a high capacitor.
With the New heavy platter, the underside of the platter is rubbing against a 50 volt capacitor that his 16.3 mm above the motor board. Then the brake adjusting screw is 15 mm above the motor board, while the center round aluminum lip is 14 mm above the board. I had to fiddle a bit to find the offending part that rubbed against the underside of the New platter – so I used a felt marker to make a star under the platter & then turned the platter to see where the felt marking rubbed off…..and thus found the rubbing area…..
So I took out the 50V 480 mf on the motor drive board and replaced it with a 50V 680 mf capacitor connected out of the way & on its side making also longer leads. I also cut the top off the adjusting plastic screw but should have verified first if it cleared the platter by itself.
As for just testing the Mike New platter and bearing by itself with the standard TT – I am sure others will soon do this. But I would bet there is a 99.999 % (to infinity..) probability he/she will find similar improvements.
The orrible concave platter is a clever idea from Oracle.
Originally, Oracle had a flat rubber platter and used a small middle high piece at he spindle, so that the screw down clamp would effectively make the record perimeter better touch the platter... This system somewhat worked but cracked many a record center hole in clamping down the record.
The slightly concave platter mat means that the record perimeter sits very well on the perimeter of the mat. The center of the mat is just a little lower, so that the record clamp can easily & better mate the record to the mat/platter. Also the mat is made of Delrin. Delrin is a very popular material used in turntables and is also used by Clearaudio.
The only other alternative to bond the record to the mat is a record ring sold by TT Weights and also VPI and others. I have a record ring and its sonic qualities are worderfull – but it’s just an extra procedure I seldom do.
Mind you, most platter mats are flat, and flat is far from ideal for the record to properly mate to the platter, unless we are mostly playing higher priced audiophile heavy records…
So a concave mat, while sounding orrible to some, may be worth consideration…
" 'Orrible" was old school slang for "Oracle... ;)"
The original oracle bearing from a million years ago (well, 30 actually) had a "soft" ceramic pad which (deliberately) wore very quickly. I'm sure that was fixed a long time ago. Linn dealers back then very rarely looked at alternative decks and the Oracle changed distributership from Ab Sounds in the early eighties. the "Alexandria" turntable had more lengthy success in the UK IIRC. Anyway, the Gyrodeck took over much of the latent interest in this styling of turntable and was a good match to the SME V which came along a very few years later.
Yes, a million years ago, the Oracle had some issues but was an interesting turntable with wich I made my first custom mass based turntable plinth & base, using Oracle platter, bearing & motor drive & the venerable SME V.
I would love to hear about interesting alternatives to the modded technics turntable, even using just one copper mat.
The cost of the SL1200 turntable + an outboard power supply + the Mike new bearing and platter + your favorite mat comes to about $2,200. US give or take...
Most turntable makers do not dare to have a strobe built in their turntables.
The strobe would show the TT cannot keep speed: due to stylus drag, belt wear, belt material, bearing, temperature change, humidity level, etc...
Even the Teres turntable, went to many pains to get the right speed. They had motor pods at some $1300. & used a battery for DC.
They are now selling a motor rim drive for almost $2,000. US and the speed is still not quite perfect. VPI has a similar rim drive unit ( not the turntable) also at a very high cost ..
So Teres is now selling a direct drive turntable – but their price is $10,000. for a basic unit ( without the tonearm) .
So even at $2,500 US a modded Technics seems to be a very serious contender. Later, a custom plinth will again change/level the playing field...
The Verus drive (Teres) is a great addition to a TT but the VPI rim drive is not in the same league. For me the major issue is the reliabilty issues with the Verus drive There is another path but I leave that for another thread when I have the TTQuote:
Originally Posted by Citation16
But to sum it up DC rim drive works really well and need not be expensive like the Teres... sorry for hijacking the thread for a moment
I have a Verus here, it has some foibles, sounds torquey if you know what I mean, but it has some rumble issues due to the type of bearing the motor uses. Speed control is admirable but I'm not convinced the complexity involved is worth it though it does ensure the motor will work with a wide variety of decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by John
I'm still going to plug a Heavy'd AceSpace with Wave Mechanic supply. Full speed adjustment available, the graphite platter (in the heavy kit) doesn't need ANY copper mats as the vinyl is perfectly terminated and the bearing is very well conceived and made for long and utterly reliable life. The belt is a silicon-rubber composite which retains its "memory" almost indefinitely too and the inertia in the platter exhibits no flutter and wow is better than a Garrard and inaudible to me.
I'm not so sure about the graphite. As part of my deck development I had both graphite platters and graphite mats made. In the end I didn't like the effect of either.
If the Wave Mechanic makes a difference, it does suggest to me that the inertia in the platter isn't actually ensuring no flutter.Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation16
I use a little rubber O ring on my Oracle Delphi mk4, works a treat :) for the clamp to push the record label against.
Regards D S D L
Possibly you refer to the new TT that Larry from TT Weights will put out (its a rim drive I beleive) at the $3,000. price range ??Quote:
Originally Posted by John
In any case we are far from Mike's new platter discussion ; hope to read other people trying it...
As for extra copper mats on the Mike's new platter,
Consider the copper pieces as more weight to the platter,
The mat is something else to put on top...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
My Oracle Delphi mk4 got from Gamepath has never missed a beat. Keeps its set-up, works perfectly and sounds wonderful. Oh yes and spare parts are not a problem :)
Regards D S D L
That is a brilliant idea !Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalek Supreme D L
Try also adding a bit of removable silicone on the 3 extremities of the suspended chassi; changes everything you heard before...
Oracle now uses a similar idea with 3 vertical pieces dipped into silicone with their latest TT model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation16
The weird thing about this is that Oracle are now doing what Project did with their first turntable which was a copy of an Oracle Delphi but on the cheap, with no nice fit and finish or metal work. It had a little pot under it and adjustable paddle. Silicon sat in the pot.
Regards D S D L
It will make a difference. It alters (reduces) the amount of isolation afforded by the suspension system. But it also reduces the amount that the motor is able to pull the suspended part around so that the platter's rotation actually follows the motor pulley's rotation more accurately.
A fair point.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
_____________________________________________
Well, I've also experimented with this and I would say; yes you are right but only up to a point. In theory it does reduce isolation but this is very frequency dependent and, not surprisingly, partly depends on the specific implementation. I use a silicone damped suspension on my current deck and it has made it virtually immune to footfall whilst maintaining good rejection at higher frequencies. I'm still experimenting but, at present, I would say there are more pros than cons to such a design. Your second point regarding motor and platter stability I entirely agree with. The damping system I use has relatively low resistance in the vertical plane and increasingly greater resistance in the horizontal dependant on deflection.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
Keith Howard did an interesting piece on isolation/suspension systems a year or two back in HiFi News. While damping the resonance of a suspension did improve its behaviour in terms of the time taken to return to rest it did also compromise the attenuation afforded by the filter aswell. There's unfortunately no such thing as a free lunch. The effectiveness of filters is always frequency dependent.
I suppose the values you choose depend how much attenuation is enough at any particular frequency.
Max Townshend always posits an optimum Q but I can't recall the value he uses. For home use I'll tolerate a high Q suspension with a longer settling time for the better isolation it offers but it certainly wouldn't be very 'commercial' *
* NB. this only applies in turntables where the drive system doesn't have a significant role in the suspension system. A sloppy High Q suspension wouldn't be much use on an AR/Linn/Thorens type deck.
True, true and true.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
Tom took great pains to ensure that his designs ran close to true speed, BUT, the motors are still synchronous I believe, and isolating the mains frequency with a re-generated one which is variable if necessary, must be a good thing for these motors.Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
Does the Wave Mechanic regenerate the 50Hz cycle then?
I quote-
NOTTINGHAM ANALOGUE STUDIO
128 CORDY LANE, UNDERWOOD, NOTTINGHAM NG16 5FD
Design and Manufacture of Quality Audio Equipment
Telephone: +(44) (0) 1773 762947
Fax: +(44) (0) 1773 533566
V.A.T. REGISTRATION NO. 667 3729 92
WAVE MECHANIC POWER SUPPLY
Why a power supply? But first, why an AC turntable motor? Nottingham Analogue turntables excel by virtue of their almost elemental simplicity, relying as they do on the fact that a rotating platter will continue to do so at absolutely constant speed unless acted upon by outside forces. By coupling this steadily rotating mass to an arm base that is stable around the axis of
rotation of the platter, the result is a truly integrated unit.
By giving the platter adequate moment of inertia, the effects of any variability in outside forces are minimized. However, the most important force, bearing friction, should if the bearing is correctly made and lubricated remain essentially constant; hence, all that is required is to supply a small amount of energy to the platter at a constant rate – just sufficient to counter the friction and maintain a steady speed.
DC motors and their highly developed control systems may rightly dominate the small motor market for “movement and placement” applications such as robotics, but are they what we need in order to maintain this steady state? For this purpose, an AC synchronous motor backed by the “mass” of the National Grid should be the answer. Unfortunately, although the laws of mechanics show no sign of changing, electricity supplies are – and apparently always for the worse. There are four main areas of concern.
1. Voltage variations
As a case in point, since “harmonizing” with the rest of the EC, the nominal UK domestic supply voltage has fallen from 240V to 230V, but the permissible range of voltage has increased vastly, now being from –6% (216.2V) to +10% (253V). This whole range will not be seen in any one locality, but wide variations do occur between different areas.
For an AC synchronous motor, such voltage variations will not affect its overall speed, but will affect its torque: not what we need for constant energy input (torque x speed = power). In addition, the absolute voltage level has a very distinct effect on the dynamics and detail of the music, with a clearly audible optimum voltage range. We need, then, to be able to optimize the motor supply voltage and to hold it stable.
2. Frequency variations
These, by definition, will directly affect the speed of a synchronous motor. Supply frequency variations are generally slow, but are easily demonstrated using an independent precision strobe illuminator such as the “Zapper”.
Permissible variation in the UK is +/- 1% (6% equates to a semitone). Over 24 hours the frequency must average exactly 50Hz to satisfy users of synchronous clocks, so that if the frequency is slow at one point in the 24 hours, it must be fast at some other point as night follows day (sometimes literally!). For a power supply, some slight adjustment of frequency is desirable for pitch purposes but once set, it must remain stable.
3. Supply waveform
This is an aspect that has been becoming universally and insidiously more of a problem over the years largely as a result of the “switched mode” power supplies that have generally supplanted transformers in much modern electronic equipment.
The supply waveform does not now have a clean sinusoidal shape, but shows drastically clipped peaks – the equivalent of adding numerous high order harmonics to the fundamental 50 or 60 Hz. These can be shown to exist at significant levels far up into the audio frequency range, and even if attenuated by damping in the drive belt will still feed through to the platter. We need to synthesize a new clean waveform; “filtering” is not an answer.
4. Voltage spikes, and other “hash”
These are another part of the fallout from the volume and complexity of modern consumer demands, and are sufficiently worrying to have provoked restrictive regulations on equipment manufacturers. Our AC motor supply needs to be free of all such intrusions.
THE WAVE MECHANIC
The “Wave Mechanic” power supply addresses all of these issues, and provides a clean waveform, stable in voltage and frequency even when run off voltages well below the permissible level. The output voltage is pre-set internally to be in the optimum range, and there is a single control on the front panel to allow minor adjustment of the frequency for pitch control. Other than for this purpose it will probably remain untouched.
Both 50Hz and 60Hz version are available configured to suit local frequency and voltage. For a Turntable speed reference to partner the “Wave Mechanic” power supply, the “Zapper” hand-held battery-operated strobe illuminator is ideal. This is available in 50Hz and 60Hz version, either with the power supply or separately for more general use.
The audible benefits of the power supply are very clear. Detail, dynamics and sound stage are all much improved, but perhaps the most evident feature is the way that the whole pace and rhythm of the music sound natural and true. Pitch stability is impeccable, giving complete confidence and much deeper involvement in the musical performance. The benefits should not be expected to replace those from upgrading the turntable, but rather to complement them. Al of the Nottingham Analogue turntables will benefit, whether your current one or your next upgraded one!
Specifications:
Supply voltage/frequency: Version for 230V/50Hz, 115V/60Hz, 100V/50Hz, 100V60Hz
Power consumption: 6.5W
Fuse: Ceramic HRC 5mm x 20mm T250mA (230V), T500mA (115V and 100V)
Output frequency: 50Hz or 60Hz (depending on model) with control in center position.
Case Dimensions: (H x W x D) 2.55” x 4.13” x 11.22”
Weight: (w/ packaging) 5.6 lbs.
I've no doubt that with the wave mechanic the platter rotates very smoothly, but if it is needed then evidently the platter does respond to unevenness in the drive and the rotating mass by itself isn't enough to ensure smooth rotation.
It must do, but I suspect not from a crystal oscillator if it is adjustable.Quote:
Originally Posted by YNWaN
Guy, I believe it's more to do with frequency and voltage stability, rather than an external bodge to correct platter-drive problems.
I have seen the mains frequency vary widely here (using an external battery 300Hz strobe as a reference to the SL-150 and Dual 701 neon lit strobes). The argument regarding lower voltage affecting torque makes sense too, as the Linn Lingo (for instance) takes the voltage down from 110 to 70V or so once started and running). NAS make the point that over the UK, the mean voltage can change from area to area, so the Wave mechanic should help minimise these differences. Is it worth £528? I don't know, but it seems to have a lot more in it than the Techie supplies (two transformers at least) and it's sold to supportive dealers, who take their cut out of the selling price.
I'm not having a go, but the NAS decks are all but ignored on here in the great Direct-Drive revolution and the Wave Mechanic was designed to enhance the consistency of performance from area to area, rather than being an essential item to the decks' performance.
I've no problem with the NAS decks, I've heard them giving very good results. They aren't quite my thing but I can understand why people like them. The point I was making was that a turntable motor is a transducer just like a speaker driver. It will try to follow & reproduce whatever you feed it. If you feed it a waveform containing hash it will try to 'play' that hash as well as rotating and to some degree a platter, regardless of how heavy, will also end up trying to follow that motor. Of course the belt compliance and the mass of the platter provides a kind of filter but it isn't perfect.
The point being that the mass of the platter alone is not enough to smooth out fluctuations in how the motor pulls it round. The wave mechanic is an integral part of the design as far as I can see.
With respect Guy, I see it as a way of giving constant voltage and frequency to a motor susceptable to changes in these, rather than specifically improving the smoothness of rotation, which it may do (as the Naim Armageddon did/does over a Lingo).
Anyway, it's a moot point on this site as few posters here know, let alone use/have used, one of these fine turntables and we're way off topic..
The info that DSJR supplied seems to imply that it does (though I admit I thought it did not).Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
I believe its difficult to do a precise variable frequency output from a fixed frequency oscillator. You normally need two different crystals to divide down from to give 33 & 45 never mind any other speeds. Unless its some new fangled & dastardly digital trickery.
DSJR. That's true. It's the new platter information vacuum that's causing it! Must resist...
That bit is actually very easy. For example Technics SP-15 had a variable crystal locked speed. Today one can use a digital frequency synthesizer chip to do that, however there is an even simpler way - a standard CMOS logic IC "4059".Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
Alex
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
Sorry I've been absent for a while, I was travelling around northern France and Belgium in a Z3 visiting mostly WW2 sites but also took a diversion to Agincourt for some 14th century gratification.
Anyway, now that I've caught up with posts here I'm glad to see that at least one member has had a listen to the platter. Dave has told me that he won't support me running a bake-off so I'm only going to be able to buy a platter as a customer when funds permit. That isn't likely until the end of the year. At that point, I shall try to review it with as many options as possible, certainly with/without the Copper mat and with at least the Timestep HE and possibly another PSU.
Hi Martin,
Glad yer back, matey. Hope you had a nice time! :)
Now why doesn't that surprise me! :rolleyes: ;)Quote:
Dave has told me that he won't support me running a bake-off so I'm only going to be able to buy a platter as a customer when funds permit.
I can't believe that he's expecting people to buy a completely unknown quantity like this which costs a not inconsiderable £650 without listening to it first in their own system.......
Note to Mike New: why did you mention here that this was a possibility?
Well I can supply the other PSU (probably two, actually), so when you buy the platter, we can have the bake-off then, dude, (if you're up for it) and it'll have bugger all to do with Dave.Quote:
That isn't likely until the end of the year. At that point, I shall try to review it with as many options as possible, certainly with/without the Copper mat and with at least the Timestep HE and possibly another PSU.
No disrespect to your reviewing abilities, but I must hear the effect of the platter with my own ears and with my own T/T before I'd entertain buying one, and we can do that together and report our findings on the forum for the benefit of other potential customers - that's the fairest and most sensible way to do it. It'd be good to hook up again, too :cool:
Marco.
I'd have thought it made sense to have say one to use as a sample to send around various folks to evaluate and post feedback :scratch: Even if it was just sent to customers he knew well it would be worth it imo, they can have the bake off etc , surely he'd trust it to get sent back .
Indeed, Leo, in normal circumstances, yes that makes perfect sense, but where Dave's concerned nothing is ever as simple or as straightforward as that due to his various agendas. He's hardly endearing himself to future customers with his defensive and unhelpful behaviour. It's bloody ridiculous :rolleyes:
I could say plenty here, but I'l refrain from losing the plot...!
Marco.
Marco ' i think your being very unfair , i don't sense any hidden agenda's , just caution! its still very early days with this new platter.
I'm being unfair? Oh come off it, Chris, it's not me behaving utterly unreasonably. Even Leo thinks it's riduculous, and so do many other people I've spoken to about it but who won't comment here. The agenda is there for all to see if people take off the blinkers: he can't handle competition or constructive criticism! Those are not endearing traits, in my opinion.
Caution? Where's the harm in allowing a product, once you're finished and are happy with it, to be demonstrated to a small group of trusted potential buyers prior to purchase? That's quite a normal thing to do, no? If you're confident in the efficacy of your products, then exposing them to scrutiny in order to make a sale is part and parcel of being in business. At least in my world it is.
If Dave wants to behave like a petulant primadonna and shoot himself in the foot in the process, in terms of selling platters, then that's his prerogative, but I'll certainly not be holding back in my criticism of his decision, as I think it's entirely justified.
Anyway, I really don't think we need any more discussion on that side of the matter, as I can't see it turning into anything remotely constructive. I merely wanted to express my disdain at what he's told Martin, and now I've done that, I think we should leave it there and return to discussing specifics about the platter itself, so please, let's do that :)
[QUOTE=Citation16;129262]I believe Mike has modified the platter so that the Cap is no longer a problem on the Mk5 decks. Dave appears to have 10 platters on order.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_New
Les
I can confirm that David has ordered ten platters from me last week. I understand that he has orders for five of them!! Plus I am shipping to the US and Canada.
I believe Marco you should carefully read the review of Yves and then form an opinion.
All this rather shrill talk and argument about motor dynamics is just that, its the listening experience that counts in the final yards. and I am no authority on sonics, rather a precision engineer.
If David does not want to loan any platters out for evaluation, then I guess I cannot do much about it. He does have the right to handle his sales territory the way he wants to. That does not mean I always agree with his approach.
The large capacitor that Yves mentioned, and that Marco seemed to think would negate anyone being able to fit the new platter themselves has been corrected. In fact this cap situation was highlighted by a helpful contributor to theses pages some months ago, who sent me an image and measurements of the latest PCB. In fact, in making some other design changes in an attemp to get the centre of gravity as low as possible, I miscalculated the distances. This has now been corrected.
Although as always when one is designing a product to piggyback an established design and production variations, there will always be the need for design reviews.
Hi Mike,
Nice one - and may you sell plenty more, my friend! Everyone has different criteria before deciding to buy something, so good luck to those who've ordered platters. I hope for them that it proves to be an excellent upgrade :)Quote:
I can confirm that David has ordered ten platters from me last week. I understand that he has orders for five of them!! Plus I am shipping to the US and Canada.
I have done, and don't doubt that what Yves says is true, however, I cannot form a definitive opinion on something which I've not heard for myself, and/or where there is (so far) no measurement data with which to allay the concerns I have expressed for this modifcation.Quote:
I believe Marco you should carefully read the review of Yves and then form an opinion.
I just like to be thorough, Mike, that's all!
Fair enough, and I respect that, but I've already said that this is one modification of the SL-1200 I would not trust my ears solely to judge, and I will stick by that. If others don't wish to do this then that is their prerogative.Quote:
All this rather shrill talk and argument about motor dynamics is just that, its the listening experience that counts in the final yards. and I am no authority on sonics, rather a precision engineer.
Indeed so, however reading between the lines of your last sentence, I'm glad that we share a degree of similar thinking in that respect ;)Quote:
If David does not want to loan any platters out for evaluation, then I guess I cannot do much about it. He does have the right to handle his sales territory the way he wants to. That does not mean I always agree with his approach.
Don't worry, that was my fault. I didn't realise that Yves had a KAB PSU.Quote:
The large capacitor that Yves mentioned, and that Marco seemed to think would negate anyone being able to fit the new platter themselves has been corrected. In fact this cap situation was highlighted by a helpful contributor to theses pages some months ago, who sent me an image and measurements of the latest PCB.
I applaud your honesty, Mike, and your willingness to be so forthcoming about these things. If only some other people could take a leaf out of your book!Quote:
In fact, in making some other design changes in an attemp to get the centre of gravity as low as possible, I miscalculated the distances. This has now been corrected.
Although as always when one is designing a product to piggyback an established design and production variations, there will always be the need for design reviews.
I very much agree with your last paragraph, which is why I would wait until all the 'teething troubles' have been ironed out before I'd consider taking the plunge with one of your platters.
We therefore await future developments with interest.
Mike, be under no illusions that my scrutinising things is done with the best of intentions, and if the sonic effect of the new platter is unquestionably as good as Yves says, AOS will promote its use to all SL-1200/1210 aficionados as a viable and effective upgrade, and in turn I'm sure you will have lots of success with it! Don't underestimate the influence AOS has in that respect ;)
The platter being an unquestionably successful and effective upgrade is what I would like to be the case, just the same as all the other Techie fans here would, too. It's just a pity that on this side of the pond one has to negotiate with such an awkward and intransigent character as Mr Cawley (judging by his behaviour here, not how he is in person).
However, onwards and upwards.... When you have any more interesting news, please be sure to share it with us! :cool:
Take care.
Marco.
Marco, may I say that these words can be easily addressed to you on this matter. I am only an outside observer here, however I understand Dave's position very well and in this case I am rather on his side. What you're demanding on the measurements side is not sensible. To measure the platter influence on the performance or indeed changes in the dynamics is not a trivial task and involves a lot of work and specialized equipment. Moreover, the release of the information from this kind of measurements may be not in the interest of either Mike or Dave as it may give some ideas to potential competitors. I think it is up to Dave how he handles the measurements and the sales (as Mike said) and your behaviour on this matter does look childish and unreasonable to me as I am following this thread :( - sorry!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Alex
Hi Alex,
No problem. You're entitled to your opinion, but although I see where you're coming from, I happen to (mostly) disagree.
Fair enough, I don't doubt it, but I was under the impression that measurements were Dave's 'thing', and that he had plenty of the relevant apparatus (and the knowledge to use it) to supply at least a credible analysis of the effects outlined.Quote:
What you're demanding on the measurements side is not sensible. To measure the platter influence on the performance or indeed changes in the dynamics is not a trivial task and involves a lot of work and specialized equipment.
Fair point, however I still maintain that Dave could offer some kind of feedback as to what he's discovered when measuring the behaviour of the new platter and its effect on the drive system of the SL-1200; he doesn't have to go into such detail that any secrets are given away.Quote:
Moreover, the release of the information from this kind of measurements may be not in the interest of either Mike or Dave as it may give some ideas to potential competitors.
All I was looking for, Alex, from Dave was something along the lines of:
'Hi guys, I've been playing with the new platter today and have discovered X, Y, Z, which clearly shows to me that the new platter doesn't in any way negatively impact on the speed stabilty of the drive system, so worry not! Oh, and it sounds fantastic and makes a significant improvement to the performance of the SL-1200...'
Had he done something that, instead of creating a shroud of silence on the matter, I can assure you that we wouldn't be in this unfortunate position now!
All others and I would like is some form of reassurance of the concerns we've raised here. Instead we get indignant silence and a rather arrogant and dismissive air of 'I don't have to justify my products to anyone' from Dave, which I'm sorry, I find completely unacceptable. Look how helpful and forthcoming people like Stan Beresford and Paul Hynes are with enquires about their products. Why can't Dave be more like them?? It certainly wouldn't do him any harm!
I can also ASSURE you that his attitude in this matter is not reflecting well on him, despite him putting a favourable spin on it. I've had discussions in private with numerous people and they are all telling me that he's doing himself no favours whatsoever. However, if he wants to put his ego ahead of his best business interests, then of course that's entirely his decision!
I do however fully understand that things are still under development with the platter, so I'm not looking for definitive answers at this stage; merely some basic feedback as to what he has learned so far. Surely to God that's not too much to ask???
No need to apologise. Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion. However, for "childish and unreasonable" see Dave's refusal to loan a test platter to Martin for serious potential buyers to evaluate prior to possible purchase :rolleyes: - even when, quite clearly, Mike himself and eveyone else thinks this is a sensible idea!!Quote:
I think it is up to Dave how he handles the measurements and the sales (as Mike said) and your behaviour on this matter does look childish and unreasonable to me as I am following this thread - sorry!
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Alex. Let's not forget too that you're a personal friend and business partner of Dave's, so I wouldn't expect you to take any other stance on this matter than what you're currently doing, which is fine by me and entirely understandable :)
Marco.