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I am trying to compile a list from my memory of the amp companies lost due the activities of the Hi-Fi mafia (and government created recessions) during the 80's and 90's. There may be mistakes, and I know a couple have been taken over as shadows of their former products. I will do similar list of T/T and speaker companies.
Anyway - additions and corrections please
Albarry
Aura
Exposure
Incatech
Magnum
Myryad
Myst
Onix
Really we should also add Quad to this list.
What positive purpose will that serve other than to deepen your resentment of “the establishment”.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Being a maverick is a good thing, and you may be surprised that I’m actually rooting for you! (You might just want to go back and read that bit again.) IMO anything that gets consumers to think outside the box is a good thing. But be realistic too. Just because you’ve decided to go direct doesn’t mean that the rest of the industry is suddenly going to wave the white flag.
It’s old news that the Hi-Fi industry has been in recession for a very long time. The world economic climate is going to accelerate that process but the casualties aren’t going to be the big brands. They have enough fat to survive starvation for a while. It’s the smaller more innovative brands and companies that will suffer first and that’s a real shame because it with reduce consumer choice. That’s not something to be celebrated, is it.
Complete nonsense - the world has changed, the smaller inovative companies like Beresford are direct and like the other smaller ones trading on ebay. They will weather this recesion perfectly well. AND if the other smaller companies who have decided to rely on retailers have any sense they will quickly switch to direct. It is the big companies with big overheads and their partners in crime the foot tapping retailers who will suffer. In the old recessions the large companies had such a hold on the industry the companies mentioned here didn't stand a chance as they couldn't sell anywhere else. Now if the designers are still around and they managed to retain rights to their design and company name then THIS is the moment to restart and sell on ebay. If they just look and see the prices their old stuff is going for now to astute buyers and collectors. For example there is a lovely set of Albarry mono power amps at ebay. Hens teeth as very few were made, but a zonking good amp with a mellowness that would very much appeal to todays valve enthusiasts. Works well with a passive. So an amp system for low dosh and high pleasure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Frost
Roll on the recession, bargains for everyone, if you have the spare dosh. Pity about the foot tapping marketing men, but oh well someone has to suffer :eyebrows::eyebrows::lol::lol:
I think you place too much faith in the internet. It might work for you and your cottage business and other niche producers, but I remain sceptical that the general Hi-Fi consumer would consider it a viable route.
Struth, I have posted on this and the history of the industry so many times. It *is* a cottage industry, which means it is a hobby industry, not a mainstream industry. The mainstream is going somewhere else, computers and television and games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Frost
I have to say that when I buy hi-fi equipment from a dealer or direct from a manufacturer I would do it only by either hearing it at his or her premises first, or if they would sent it to me to audition at home prior to purchase on the strength of a valid credit card number (without the card being charged).
I would not buy hi-fi equipment of high value from the Internet where this facility is not available unless I knew the person selling the equipment or they had an established reputation. I also dislike the 'buy it first and if you don't like it I'll refund it' policy of some people selling direct (sorry, Richard!) as it inconveniences the customer in the event that goods sold are unsuitable, whilst at the same time being out of pocket until a refund is processed. If I buy goods I want the service to back it up, too, not to have to do everything myself.
When I've 'sampled the goods', so to speak, decided they're suitable, and I want to buy them, that's when I pay, not before. It's the same in restaurants. If I enter a premises that insists on me paying upfront for my food, I refuse and go elsewhere. What if the food is shit and the management refuse later to give me a refund? Nope - I like to be the one in control of my money, thank you very much!!
Marco.
We obviously have different views of the industry. I wouldn't call companies such as Linn, Naim, Meridian, B&W, KEF, Monitor Audio etc etc cottage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
So you are willing to pay an extra 50 to 100% depending on product for this convenience. OK no problem it is a process of choice which at least is freedom allowed now. It was not allowed in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
The world is going in the other direction Marco. The convenience store is dying apart from emergency fags. I suppose the addicted equivelent in Hi-Fi is the NLPed Linn-ite. But an industry cannot be run that way now, pandoras box has been opened.
Your point of credit cards also is invalid as that would mean increased margins to pay for it so it would have to be retailers again providing this service, so you might as well visit then in person. OK credit cards via a manufacturers website I suppose could be dodgy, but if it is a genuine authorised merchant you are completely protected. Via ebay and paypal you are protected even more as long as you avoid the scammers who are very easy to see. Both paypal and ebay err on the side of the buyer in any dispute.
Experience tell me the only people who wish to try product without being willing to pay for it are those who don't have the money but want to try things. Remember in relative terms the web and online selling is new. I bet in 10 years it will be unrecognisable to now and methods may have been arrived at to do this. We have proxy servers so proxy money holding the way paypal is going more and more into may end up being the answer. Money is not taken or given but a contract is made, it is then fullfilled by either keeping or returning.
I am sure this is the way ebay and paypal are leaning. I just wish someone else would come up with an alternative route though as a monoploy is never a good thing.
I don't doubt that's the case, but you have to judge things on an individual basis and rely on a person's reputation (if they have one) good or bad. I'm a serious buyer, and if I want something I have the money to pay for it, no problem.Quote:
Experience tell me the only people who wish to try product without being willing to pay for it are those who don't have the money but want to try things
I would not mess anyone about unless they've messed me about. I'm in business myself (art dealer/framer) so I know what it's like. If I'm asking to audition equipment then it means I'm in the market to buy it, or to review a manufacturer's product for the forum ;)
However, as the customer, I want to be the one in control of the situation, especially when it involves my finances. It's kind of 'catch 22', but there you go.
Marco.
Shame we can't add Musical Fidelity to that list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
lolQuote:
Shame we can't add Musical Fidelity to that list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. C
Richard,
I believe you when you say you do not self promote. Possibly others are batting on your behalf with incentives.
This allegation about NVA was repeated on Wigwam as well, from the boss there. I queried him about this (as my dealings with Richard indicated that this rumour was unlikely in the extreme). I received the reply that it was a rumour only, and that he had seen no evidence whatsoever to back it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince of Darkness
Tony, you owe Richard an open apology, imho. .... unless you have evidence, in which case present it.
They just got too big for their shoes and became semi detached for a while. In this recession they will all be downsizing to smaller houses or trying to sell up and rent, or going on the council housing list :lol::lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Frost
More like Musical non-Fidelity, or even Musical Infidelity! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Filterlab
Anthony Michaelson lost the plot years ago. MF used to do some decent products but not now. This 'Supercharger' shite, and 'If your amp doesn't have at least 300W it's shit' nonsense was the last straw :mental:
Marco.
Yeah, that really got my goat actually. I'd just spent £2500 on an MF source, and here was Anthony Michaelson telling me my system sounded bad just because the dynamic range wasn't the same as a concert hall (???). Bearing in mind I play mainly electronica through my system, vast dynamic range isn't called for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Moreover he has never heard my system so where does he get off telling me it's bad? Tosser, now that's one company director who wants to see his business fall flat.
Your refering to a Clarinetist turned marketing man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Filterlab
MF is and always has been a marketing exercise. AM is not an electronic designer he is an ideas man looking for angles to sell things, he employs designers. He is another Ashley basically.
He has used some very good designers and then messed up those designs by substituting cheap components. I posted this before, his best designer he employed back in the 80's was Tim de Paravicini. Go to Heathrow and ask Tim about him and the products he designed for him like the original A1.
Richard,
Who do you rate as the best British designers still alive? - Guys who really know their shit and/or who have been responsible for innovative/landmark products.
My top two would be Glenn Croft and Tim De Paravicini, not forgetting of course our own resident valve guru Anthony Matthews, and maybe even your good self ;)
I'd probably put Mike Creek in there, and Roy Gandy of Rega, but I'm struggling to think of anyone else.
Marco.
Peter C currently of WD fame and Andy Grove.
Very few who are innovative and most are shadow men kept in the background by the marketers / pretend designers. Tim is probably the most innovative Brit (with an Italian name :doh:).Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
The most unsung innovative designer is a Yank - Andy Rappaport - I think he is still alive, he should be anyway.
Yes, one very similar to my own ;)Quote:
Very few who are innovative and most are shadow men kept in the background by the marketers / pretend designers. Tim is probably the most innovative Brit (with an Italian name :doh:).
I've spoken to Tim and his parents come from Tuscany, just like mine. Italians just have so much class in all areas of life!! :lol:
Marco.
Excuse my ignorance, Neal, but who's Andy Grove?Quote:
Peter C currently of WD fame and Andy Grove.
Marco.
I think he's the chap that designs the Glasshouse stuff. He used to work for Audio Note too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Ah... Cheers, Rob.
Audio Note - that's another manufacturer I rate highly. Perhaps their equipment is a little overpriced, though. It certainly sounds excellent.
Marco.
Arh! Peter Q another ex retailer turned marketing man. You don't really think he is a designer do you. If you want a laugh talk to Guy about him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
His skill - going bust and surviving more (company) crashes than Evil Knievel. Also he has a very good ability at acquiring company names and products.
Yes they have extemely good taste in uniforms, real class :lolsign:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
El Duce had soooo much taste :mental:
"Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco View Post
Excuse my ignorance, Neal, but who's Andy Grove?
Marco.
I think he's the chap that designs the Glasshouse stuff. He used to work for Audio Note too."
Also designed the WD amps and most of the WAD amps, and the recent QUAD valve amps.
I'd go along with Andy Rappaport based on listening to his old power amp a few times (Octave Research OR-1) Probably the best SS amp I've heard. Sadly he's moved onto grander things now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_S._Rappaport
All in this series from my list will contain inf I remember, things I don't will have () around them. So if you know then post and I will edit this as a reference.
Albarry built amplifiers in the 1980's (dates). Started by Albert (Henshaw?) and Barry (?), hence the name, in Stockport Manchester as an adenda to their Hi-Fi Retail business called Bespoke Audio. They were also importers of Alison Loudspeakers from the US. They built a Pre-Amp Model (?) and stereo Power Amp Model M408 a set of Monoblock Power Amps model M1008 and finally an Integrated Amp model (?). Failed in the late 80's recession and due to lack of dealer support. Excellent products from designer (?) with a very smooth presentation and in the power amps a very advanced and interesting case design. Albert continued in the business selling stylii and carts from his home. The company is called Pinzan Needles.
Currently a set of the M1008s up at ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...Name=WDVW&rd=1
Albert still does his 'Pinzan needles' business. The shop was called 'Bespoke Audio'.
Ed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Ed
Ta Ed - do you know Albert, have you a phone number. I haven't spoken to him for about 15 years it would be nice to catch up on things.
Albert's number is 01663 742695.
Ed.
I will come back to the heritage hi-fi companies latter, but I am in need of a new rant.
Loudspeaker Manufacturers.
Where do they think they get off!!
They think *they are* the industry and everyone else is just here to serve them and provide the means for their beauties to show how wonderfull they are. Well then if they don't sound wonderfull it is obviously the fault of - pick from many - the acoustic, source manufacturer, amplifier manufacturer, cable manufacturer, recording studio, pressing plant, the weather, the designers wife is at the wrong time of the month etc etc. Anything but their bloody awfull loudspeakers.
Plus they think the industry revolves around them and they are cutting edge technology, what a load of old poop. Speakers are so easy to make any bloke here could do it by just buying drivers from Wilmslow and using an old cupboard and a saw. And I will tell you what, they will probably sound better than 50% of the crap out there being foisted on us.
Anechoic chambers, computer modelling, digital design, space age materials - all justification for creating over complicated, over designed, over ego-ed, monstrosities. Speakers are simple, understand simple and they simply work or they don't, and what is the arbetter, well your good old lugholes. Now you have probably gathered from my rants that I am not a flat earth loving man, well by and large you will be wrong. I hate the BS of it, and the NLP, and basically the arrogance of the likes of Ivor T after making a fortune from a dead mans work, that just makes me boil. BUT flat earth concepts of source and subjective reasoning is still spot on. A speaker cannot perform unless the rest is right, and falls apart if what is before it is only partly right. But get source right then get amplifier then get cable right and a partly right loudspeaker will sing. There have even been retailers who get the system right and give you loudspeakers because in the past there were little marvels who sang like the devil for next to nothing - JPW - Diamonds etc. Put some of the over designed monstrosities from the likes of BMW and Kef on the end and you likely have just a flat fart.
This concept applies to many things in life and is very true of my other love Tai-Chi. In terms of structure if your feet are wrong then everything else is wrong no matter how right it is. Think of your feet (your root) as source - you centre as amplifier - your arms are the loudspeakers - the sinues and bones are stands and cables. Well without your reference (root) and your power (centre) what comes out of the hands and arms is weak energetically, it may be hard but it has no power.
There are analogies all over many different aspects for this.
So please can we have some manufacturers of loudspeakers back in the UK that just try to be simple, not trying to over power us with their technical excellence, as it is just another industry bullshit. Speakers are simple - keep it that way - to improve go for quality not design quantity. Stop killing cabinets with over damping and design freaks (like snails). Just go for rigidity and coupling. Stop killing amplifiers by designing crossovers that make ridiculous phase changes by over complication, too many legs, too many component, too steep a filters. Stop killing the music by blocking the good work done by source and amplifiers from ever even meeting the air, because you want to show your design skill.
Answer - lets get some good UK speakers back, the Yanks are overtaking us in good simple design, look at Zu for one - get (original) JPW and Royd back into production for a start that will help. Just ask Jerry if he can find a modern speaker to compete with the good oldies. And stop buying speakers and then trying to get everything else to match them. Like starting a race standing on your head, complete nonsense.
Better but still not good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shian7
Why not try to design a cabinet that needs no damping, it can be done, damping is a cure not an essential.
Why not design a bass / mid driver than needs no filtering to be relatively flat. It can be done, crossover filters are a cure not an essential.
Why not design HF drivers to only need a blocking cap, it can be done, croosover filters are a cure not an essential.
Hmmm..... sounds like you're saying "why not design an Epos ES14" (you'll have to ignore the foam inside though)!
:lolsign:
You still don't understand. Nothing is essential not even the design process. If I could grow a pea that played music what would be the point of designing and building *equipment*.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shian7
Arse about face - cart before horse - design for the sake of design - justification of job title and salary.
Start at the begining with your source (unless you want to change that and then you have real politics and another set of fun entirely). LP - CD - Computer - Tuner. OK now do the minimum necessary to reproduce that source at the level you need it. Everything else is just so much BS.
Eh?...
It was just a light hearted reply to your previous post where you say "why not design...." quite a lot!
The ES14 is just such a speaker, apart from having a bit of foam inside!
I give up....
You've got speaker design experience don't you? Here's an idea. Why don't you come up with some BS Free designs that the average DIY'er can put together without special tools, then post those designs FOC on the net?Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Let's see what you come up with for in three categories - < £200/pr, < £500/pr and < £1000/pr
If a few of the other forum members chipped in we could build the £200 design and put it to the test. It would make an interesting bakeoff, don't you think?
So you want to give me more work - well do it your bloody self.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Frost
If you were capable of reading and understanding the thread you will see that my point is that you do not need designers. In fact more often than not if they get involved they mess it up as the process is "entirely" subjective. Buy some drive units, bolt them in an old cupboard and then listen. If they don't work properly then change them, change the cabinet, change the drivers until it does. What you get then is a simple loudspeaker that sings. Usual way if it doesn't work straight off is to compensate for it not working. Instead of stopping the illness in the first place they try to cure it. So now you put in damping panels, foam etc. You put in filters and many legged crossovers. YOU COCK IT UP! You end up with a music strangler.
If you want complete simplicity then buy a Fostex full range and mount it on a piece of marine ply, open baffle. As simple as you can get, and it works, it is not perfect but it doesn't strangle the music.
I see the old chesnut "music strangler" has raised its head again :lolsign:
Only pulling your leg - I know exactly where you're coming from. You're making sense, but perhaps generalising too much (again).
Marco.
Doubt you could get cheaper/simpler than this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m8fb...eature=related
Regards,Ali
Do you know, for someone into the purity of Eastern martial arts you aren't half aggressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
...and a big pile of redundant cabinets and drivers, not to mention a gaping hole in the walletQuote:
Originally Posted by Richard
:lolsign:
That's ace. Now all the guy needs is to make a tripod for under a Dollar (or does he really have only one hand ;) )Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Tait
I'm sorry to say this Richard, but that IS designing - be it reactively rather than proactively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Bit sexist, that, Richard! ;) Supposing the wife is the designer. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Jerry,
I think Richard is currently having 'a wee mood', after his recent hissy fit with Chris. Normal service should be resumed shortly ;)
Marco.
:D
The big squeeze is on, fun and bargains for everyone.
For those non ebay watchers who haven't noticed, the retailers are jumping on ebay to try and shift stock, and prices are plummeting. If you pay full retailer whack for something at the moment you are daft, 30% discount will become the norm as they steadily go bust.
Linn dealers are trying to offload stock, which is very interesting, as it is known the company has problems. Even some Naim dealers are panicking.
But it is trade ins and old stock that is mostly being put up and is also mostly going up with no reserve, and going prices are 50% less (equivelent) than last year I estimate.
So the process starts, I will enjoy watching it.
Well I'm not surprised at all, even those prices are more than some of the stuff is worth.
Also it's good to be able to buy hifi now that doesn't use any of those "magic" interconnects.
Welcome back, Richard! :clap:
Marco.