I've just ordered a Pro-ject RCM, bit of an impulse buy but I've always wanted a RCM.
Will report my findings once it arrives and I start using it. In the meantime, any tips for a complete RCM novice would be greatly appreciated. :)
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I've just ordered a Pro-ject RCM, bit of an impulse buy but I've always wanted a RCM.
Will report my findings once it arrives and I start using it. In the meantime, any tips for a complete RCM novice would be greatly appreciated. :)
Snap!...:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon_LDT
howdy folks ... dipping a toe back into vinyl again, but keeping it simple and (to be frank) as cheap as poss. this time.
dealing with static and dirty records effectively remain two much-desired for goals, and I've read through the thread here accordingly.
I've no desire or dosh for vac-cleaning at this point (have had a moth and loricraft in the past), so had pretty much decided to go with Paul Stewart's potion and micro-fiber cloths, and was googling last night for the 'right' kind of the latter when I came across this page:
http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl...cords-by-hand/
It's the fourth paragraph down that's got me wondering, where he robustly (and apparently with evidence, although not provided) argues against the use of isopropyl alchohol ... any comments on the matter would be much appreciated - particularly from you Paul (Stewart), as you clearly know your stuff.
Hi Marc,
The problem with articles like this is they are well written, but sadly complete clap trap. There is a myth that isopropyl is de plasticising when it comes to vinyl. This is frankly nonsense, we tested pur cleaner with over a thousand cleaning and drying cycles, having built a test rig to measure the degree of bend, we also soaked a strip cut from a record in various strengths of alcohol for a week and then dried them and again there was no difference in the degree of flexibility. We then used a constant pressure scribing tool to see if the cleaned vinyl was more likely to scratch, it wasn't.
Next the idea that there is a protective coating on records is just nonsense. I've been invoved with the production of records for many years and it simply does not exist. There are some release compounds, on SOME records, not all presses needed them. However, alchohol on it's own does not work well, it needs to be mixed with other ingredients to make it clean effectively.
Hope this helps
cheers, Paul.
Interesting stuff, and thought / hoped that would be the case.
odd, in that he claims to have 'proof' and also that the article is on a record-manufacturing company's website (re: the protective coating) ... but your testing was obviously comprehensive (to say the least!). Thanks again for your answer.
Marc
If you want a full explanation from a bioscience perspective then there are 25 pages of interest in the link below!
He covers stuff like Photoflo, washing liquid, rinse-aid, alcohols and a host of other liquids that enthusiasts use, talks about Ph, acid etching, static etc.
However the gist of it is: never more than 10% alcohol and a couple of drops of a detergent per litre. The thread is mostly, but not exclusively american and the preferred detergent is Triton X-100. Take inspiration from the title: Record Cleaning - You're doing it all wrong!
If you manage the first 5 pages, then you can skip to the end until your motivation returns!
http://www.audiokarm...t-wrong.689430/
uh oh ... here we go :D vinyl craziness :eek:
couldn't get your link to work StuN, old chap?
here's what I googled:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.p...-wrong.689430/
but thanks - not sure I'll come out the 'other side' any more certain of stuff than usual, but it's interesting reading for sure.
ok -next question folks - hope there's still some interest in this thread.
I've bought this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...ilpage_o01_s00
but have, typically, managed to come across record cleaning instructions online that say de-mineralised water (as opposed to distilled) is a definite no-no (although they don't say why of course...) ...
anyone reassure, or otherwise, that what I've bought is fit for purpose?
Marc
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...ilpage_o01_s00
de-mineralised water (as opposed to distilled)
Irons , Batteries, Coolant/Anti-Freeze, Windscreen Wash
for a RCM you need distilled , ultrapure or RO ( Reverse osmosis ) water
I use triple distilled as it has the broadest capabilities...ive not tried de ionised ..... Sure there will be some with better knowledge around who will guide you.
Here is a guide for what its worth...:)
Effectiveness of Distillation
Biological contaminants (viruses, bacteria, pyrogens, cysts):......Very Good
Dissolved gases (CO2, chlorine, radon):....................................Poor
Soluble organics (except VOC):............................................. ...Good
Particulates (sand, dust):............................................ .............Very Good
Soluble minerals (salts, hardness, iron, heavy metals):...............Very Good
Effectiveness of De-ionization
Biological contaminants (viruses, bacteria, pyrogens, cysts):.......Poor
Dissolved gases (CO2, chlorine, radon):.....................................Good
Soluble organics (charged ions only):........................................Good
Particulates (sand, dust, colloids):........................................ .....Poor
Soluble minerals (salts, hardness, iron, heavy metals):...............Outstanding
Effectiveness of Reverse-Osmosis Filtration
Biological contaminants (viruses, bacteria, pyrogens, cysts):......Very Good
Dissolved gases (chlorine only):............................................ ....Poor
Soluble organics (charged ions only):........................................Good
Particulates (sand, dust, colloids):........................................ .....Very good
Soluble minerals (salts, hardness, iron, heavy metals):...............Very Good
Effectiveness of Activated-Carbon Filtration
Biological contaminants (viruses, bacteria, pyrogens, cysts):........Poor
Dissolved gases (chlorine):....................................... .................Good
Dissolved organics (herbicides, pesticides, industrial solvents):....Outstanding
Particulates (sand, dust, colloids):........................................ ......Poor
Soluble minerals (salts, hardness, iron, heavy metals):.................Poor
ok... answering my own question :D
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable...ic.php?t=38459
but shows how easy it is to stop with mis-information.
'Alex' in post two says de-minerlised 'fine', but if you go down to 'Guy's he seems to give a fuller explanation of why it isn't ... . Probably (in the sense that the stuff I've bought off amazon may well use additional processes that deal with the dissolved ionic goobers). Sigh.
On the plus side you're not going to run short of screen wash for your car for a while ;)
that's true.
I've emailed the company that 'make' the de-mineralised water, and will update with their opinion, if one's forthcoming...
Daytona, Struth - thanks for your replies and info - I wasn't seeing them until a 'refresh' just now.
triple-distilled it is I guess (at 5 times the price ... sign [again])
Just get distilled water, no point in skimping on a few quid. I got 2L worth for about £5-6 from APC Pure.
All this talk about Isopro not being good for LP's is worrying. Although there are just as many saying it's safe so it must just be a myth.
Still waiting on my bloody Pro-Ject RCM...
Listen to Paul - he has done the tests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon_LDT
And if he says it's safe to surf this beach - then it's safe to surf this beach!
Isopropyl is fine with vinyl..its been used for years..ive used it for years too... As said dont skimp on ingredients as its still cheap in long run. Goes a long way does a 5 litre tub of iso and bulk distilled h2o. If you dont want to experiment or save a bit then Pauls stuff is a good as your gonna find on market
I will be picking up some of Paul's stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
His brush is too rich for my blood however, and I'll have to see how micro-fibers do / alt. natural brush.
+ 1 for distilled water, I get mine delivered from a lab supplier for less than £15 for 10 litres and have found it excellent.:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
details on who you buy from please, Gary?Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioFreak
Lots of suppliers / prices on ebay, but unclear as to how well 'distilled' their product is....
by gum, this vinyl business is a lark...
I've never had much time for carbon brushes - the sort one holds on the disc while it spins before a play etc, always finding they add static rather than otherwise...., as well as doing a poor job of actually getting the dust they collect actually 'off' the disc surface...
I recently came across the advice of grounding the brush to the spindle as you take it off and I must admit that does seem to work better ... but having been testing such techniques with a new disc (fairly dodgy pressing of Minstrel in the Gallery, but that's another story), I'm appalled by the 'micro-abrasions' (to be honest, they don't look that 'micro!) left in the two areas I'd used the brush (right across one radius of the grooves of course).
The brush I have is a no-name one, and the bristles do seem stiffer than some (deram?) that I've had in the past ... but even so, I won't be doing that again.
found a (bad-tempered and inconclusive, as per...) thread on it here:
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thread....281574/page-6
what particularly irks me is that I've just bought (delivered) one of these:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/css/orde...ya_st_oh_crumb
I've had these on the past, and they do at least work in the terms of collecting dust ahead of the stylus, and the idea of a grounding cable always appeals (can't remember if it seemed to work in the past or not!) ... but now I don't know whether to use it or not. On the face of it, it would be daft after what I've seen using a brush.
I will try and get a pic or two of the 'scratches' when I can.
Any comments / advice much appreciated as ever.
Marc
(btw, should this really be a new thread? if a passing mod thinks so, and is able to oblige, that would be great)
I use stiff nail brush on some bad ones and it doesnt scratch if used right way so you shouldn't cause any marks with a fibre one if you do it right. Dusting a clean one i put it on turntable and spin it .lay brush on and work in to label to spindle then lift..usually not much there if its been cleaned and anti staticed at last use or clean.. The antistatic pistols are good to reinforce what your cleaning solution should do static wise
thanks Struth.
this brush I mention does seem on the 'stiff' side for carbon fibre ... as I say I'll try and get a piccy or two up at some point. Although you have to get the light 'right' to see the marks, once you do, they certainly aint subtle...
the dustbug I mention is much less likely to cause trouble I would hope, if balanced correctly... but then again ... :scratch:
Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
Off the bay mate. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Distilled-...kAAOSwFNZWxOq4 This product tells how the water is distilled:Quote:
Originally Posted by Slippershod
•Pretreated through carbon filters
•Softened by Water Softener
•Pre-purified via Reverse Osmosis System
•Distilled (Glass)
•Treated with UV Ultraviolet High Intensity Light
•Filtered through 0.2 Micron Microbial Particulate System
•Polished
I have found this stuff excellent and now less than £14 delivered, you can't go wrong.
thanks a lot, Gary. I'll give 'em a go.
(mind you, after all of that, I'm surprised there's any water left at all :eek: !)
How do you accomplish that? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioFreak
Tin of polish lol
Think it's like a filtration chamber use them in wine making. Can be done with a chemical in water that falls to bottom and taking small partials with it
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...d/DSCN1530.jpg
hope that's showing - ages since I linked a photo...
assuming it is: this photo shows the marks I mentioned caused by (my attempt at) 'standard' use of a carbon fibre brush - and I have to say - it can be very difficult to see them, depending on light and angle of disc.
feel free to dismiss it as no more than evidence of my cack-handedness, but it's certainly given me pause for thought in terms of using any kind of carbon fibre brush now.
As mentioned, Ive got one of those carbon-fibre brushed dustbugs, but am thinking of sticking a sable-haired one onto it instead - I seem to have countered static by spraying water with an atomiser in the area around my deck ...
are you brushing across the grooves? i always brush diagonally outwards
that's what I used to do - but came across advice (youtube vid I think) which said you should move the brush directly off in a quick movement to the side ... you can see how well it worked :rolleyes:
I haven't tested methodically yet to see if these 'scratches' are audible (working up to actually cleaning the disc again, first!)
I appreciate the assertive and authoritative replies and advice above, and am certainly not trying to provoke and irritate, but given the large amount of dosh I have spent on this in the past (and it's rising again now, G** help me...) I'm still trying to reassure myself I've reached a clear conclusion:
this ebay seller of de-ionised water: is their product / process description relevant to what is suitable for cleaning / rinsing:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DE-IONISED...25.m3641.l6368
I ask particularly as I've had a reply from the makers of the 'vinyl revival' cleaning set available on Amazon. I'd ordered a set of this before joining in with this thread and thinking more in terms of Paul's product: but what caught my eye is their admonition to avoid using distilled water.
In asking why, I've been told the following:
"Distilled water will contain cations and anions ie. positive and negative charge, which in turn can result in static - the record player's enemy."
Does this imply that water needs de-ionising as well (you can tell I'm not a chemistry major, right :D ) ... ? :scratch:
De-ionised water is purer than distilled water. http://www.distilleddeionizedwater.c...stilled-water/
Ultimately you need the purest water possible. So water that uses a combination of all the purification methods possible would be the best way. This is why I use laboratory water, it's the best that I have found.
thanks for info / opinion, Barry ... gosh, hard to find that elusive 'consensus' !! Do you use any purified water for this purpose yourself - and if so, source?
got some of the acpure stuff coming today, Gary - but now not clear - is it actually de-ionised?
Have failed to get any further elaboration from 'Vinyl Revival' (which I don't blame them for: it must be irksome trying to communicate with the scientifically illiterate, such as I), but as I mentioned above, what they did say seemed to imply that de-ionisation was important.
as such I was wondering about this stuff (I'll be able to open a swimming-pool at this rate):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2219649160...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
considerably less expensive than the other suppliers too... :scratch:
Are you vacuum cleaning? If you are I wouldn't get too hung up on what water to use.
I've used distilled and deionised water and both are fine
Still waiting on my goddamn Pro-ject RCM - apparently another 2 weeks wait for the next shipment, after already waiting 3 weeks...
no, not vacuuming.
had a moth and loricraft in the past, and most records were none the better for their use - and I used any number of powders and potions. I also damaged a few records with the moth before I realised how careful you've got to be in keeping the nozzle felts clean with that design.
I wont go that route again if I can get decent results with 'hand-washing' and rinsing.
But, then, the photo Paul Stewart posted earlier of grooves 'before and after' using a loricraft (I think) is compelling, and so why I had such little joy with all my earlier efforts I'm not quite sure. Combination of things: naivety and being un-methodical in main, probably.
But then again: have you seen what the guy behind Merrill record players and accessories has to say about vac-cleaning - and he's got photos to prove it too...! (http://www.hifigem.com/hydraulic-lp-...ratusMKII.html)
I went for his line a few years back and bought the MK1 cleaner (GEM dandy thing) ... and... found it no better :lol: :doh: :mental: Could have been the quality of my tap-water and my attempts to filter it being inadequate...
As you can see: I've been through the mill with this, to put it mildly, and this time I'm aiming to keep it as quiet, simple and 'cheap' as possible.
Vacuuming is pretty essential as is good cleaner and brush...then its technique and practice.. Difference is astonishing to me and wouldnt be without my moth or similar machine. Alas they are not cheap to buy but if you look after it it will last a lifetime. Mine is 8 years old and still working perfect and still on original pads
Have a look here for simple and cheap and excellent results. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...g-on-the-cheapQuote:
Originally Posted by Slippershod
that is absolutely brilliant Jamie.
questions:
1) in the linked thread you say the pipe you use is kind of rectangular - which one do you mean, as neither look it in the photo?
2) as the pad around the end of the tube must be getting pretty soaked, how do you avoid it leaving dampness 'around' the vacummed area- this was a problem I had with my moth machine, where you'd end up with a damp 'band' across the record where you stop vacuuming... (I'm just wondering if you use more than one vacuuming set actually, as you change cleaning brushes between your two cycles?)
3) any chance you can supply more details for the parts you used?
some people such as yourself have a real gift for this kind of thing and 'making it work' while others (like me) get bogged down in the detail and making wrong choices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamie123
i bought the lot from b&q,the pipe is approx 18mm by 12,i only use one pipe for cleaning and rinsing but i do change the felt end regularly,all i use are moth ones cut to size.
i dont get a damp band as i always finish in the run off of the records :)
i basically adapt what this guy uses,it also has some good advice too . http://cleaningvinyllps.blogspot.co....right-way.html
what glue did you use to attach the moth felt to the end of the plastic tube (I can see the 'wrong' sort soaking through the velvet and making scratch-making hard bits) ?
that guy's blog is great btw - thanks for the link to that (the gem dandy gets a special mention :doh:).
hmmm, having skimmed through it (bit of a stream of consciousness to say the least) I'm getting close to giving up on cleaning again :D :scratch:... he robustly dismisses using alchohol ... shows a guy hand-cleaning with an expensive Monks fluid (I remember seeing this stuff before online) in a way that surely can't clean the record effectively (watch the youtube video); I mean, if that method does work, well... by gum ... ... doesn't explain his home-made vac. cleaner properly at all (i.e. photos or diagrams) - if you read the comments it finally becomes apparent that he's approximating his own version of the loricraft approach with cotton thread over the end of his vac's tube, but there's no clear illustration of exactly what he does (btw, Jaime, he does this to avoid contamination from felt pads etc - but then you say you change them frequently, which is fair enough...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Slippershod
I guess it bugs me: there are folk like Jaime here who are resourceful and acute enough to go through stuff like this and work out a method of their own that's effective, but others (umm, me) could do with rather more transparent and coherent explanations. With some of these guys it's like they've been on a course that lets them excel in tantalising you with an 'answer' only to then hide it in obfuscation ... mind you, I'll get a pump sprayer at least, so I thank him for that :ner:
No - seriously, there's a lot of interesting / good stuff there. But also a lot of stuff that contradicts much of what others assert (in this very thread of course - particularly as regards the use of alcohol and the need for lab-grade water) ... what to do :confused:
I think you're thinking too hard on everything (I do it myself sometimes!). Just get yourself a cheap vaccum RCM (be it 2nd hand or DIY project) or even get one on credit (I've ordered the Pro-ject on credit for 6 months at £40 a month which evens out the cost rather than lumping it all down in one go). Use 'The Right One' fluid (many people here recommend it so it can't be bad, eh?) and you're good to go.
In regards to using carbon brushes. I use a Milty and never had it scratch a record. Always hold it parallel to the grooves and apply the tiniest amount of pressure. After 1-2 rotations, gently sweep the brush away from the record in one swift motion.
well... possibly. But something's odd in my experience of this activity, for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon_LDT
I went through Scott Nagle's 'record cleaning' section in his shop (Daytona on this site), and I've used almost every item of hardware / 'software' that he sells short of the Ultrasonic cleaners (not meaning I bought them from Scott or that this is a comment on his shop by the way: just an example to show the range of stuff I've tried!). Seriously.
To have apparently failed with so much stuff where others succeed routinely is certainly puzzling, and explains why I'm trying to find that 'consensus' this time before getting too far in again...
As far as Carbon Fibre brushes go, well .... you've seen my photo in this thread I imagine.
Ironically as far as those go, is it possible 'good' technique is disguising the damage they can cause (I mean if you're making sure the filaments are aligned with the grooves and are careful in removing the brush)? Dunno - but I have evidence that the substance is capable of scratching vinyl whatever other variables there may be...
anyhow, Paul Stewart's posts in this thread are certainly authoritative and compelling, and maybe I should just go with that, and try and be more ... careful.
Hopefully will be having a go at cleaning some records soon with my new Pro-ject RCM. :)
I do have what may seem a bit of a silly question: What do folks here do with the goats hair brush (for application) once finished with a cleaning session? Obviously it'll have some fluid still on it and I would have thought cleaning it under the tap is a no-no. Rinse with distilled water? Leave to dry naturally without rinsing off the fluid?
I use a goat brush. Its specifically for wet use. I just use a micro fibre cloth. Laying the cloth on counter i just run the brush across it with the hairs so as not to damage it. Then it will dry quite quickly and stay nice n clean
Thanks Grant, sounds good to me. I suppose there shouldn't be too much fluid left on it anyway as long as the right amount is applied per side.
Like this one?Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...8f64f5a84b.jpg
How do you pay him? Certain favours? :rofl:
Another idiot question here: The Right One stuff is already diluted right? I've just tried cleaning my first LP and found it quite hard to distribute the fluid - or maybe I'm just not using enough. There's a very strong pure alcohol smell and it has me worried I've done it wrong already lol.