It's great to be 'famous'!!

Hi Rav,

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The decks were, an Audio-Note w/ Io-Gold MC, an Avid-Acutus/SME-V, and a Feickert Blackbird/Kuzma arm. (I also heard some mid-line OL decks.)

Of course we are talking about unfamiliar decks, listened to in unfamiliar systems, with at times unfamiliar music setup in hotel rooms. So the comparisons are pretty vague.

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Sure, but at the same time, if there had been any genuine vast sonic improvements, compared with what you're used to, you'd soon have heard them! :exactly:

It's interesting what you say, as those were some serious T/Ts.

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I am not saying that either of the two turntables I have at home are better than any of the above. But my overall feeling was that I am not missing all that much....

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I feel the exact same way whenever I go to shows. I find most high-end modern T/Ts flatter to decieve, are ridiculously overpriced, and generally offer little (if any) improvement over the classic designs from yesteryear, when most of the important engineering challenges, in terms of designing a high-quality turntable, were solved with some considerable aplomb! ;)

Marco.

And that's exactly where he seems to be missing the point/plot. We are all in this, passionately so, because we firmly believe that our components or systems truly reflect our personal tastes whether in music or simple aesthetics. We chose our equipment after careful listening, research and discourse with other "enthusiasts", to reach something that best does it for us. We spend more time and effort (and maybe money) on system building than buying a car - we are dead serious about it. On this premise alone I would never counter-argue with anyone over his choice of equipment. I think he knows best what stuff his ears like listen too.
So, I couldn't possibly agree with any of the points he raises - if a "pimped up" Hyundai with a turbocharged 164 valve, quadruple intercoolers, faster than light engine with Kevlar doors and gold door knobs is one's cup of tea and he enjoys owning/driving it then what's the problem? I'd certainly prefer the above over that poseur's delight the Porsche Cayenne.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Hi Rav,
It's interesting what you say, as those were some serious T/Ts.

Marco.

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If you mean digitally, then I would agree? How much better is 1989 GREAT than 2012 GREAT? I am with you on that one.

Regs
Pete

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Originally Posted by vouk

And that's exactly where he seems to be missing the point/plot. We are all in this, passionately so, because we firmly believe that our components or systems truly reflect our personal tastes whether in music or simple aesthetics. We chose our equipment after careful listening, research and discourse with other "enthusiasts", to reach something that best does it for us. We spend more time and effort (and maybe money) on system building than buying a car - we are dead serious about it. On this premise alone I would never counter-argue with anyone over his choice of equipment. I think he knows best what stuff his ears like listen too.
So, I couldn't possibly agree with any of the points he raises - if a "pimped up" Hyundai with a turbocharged 164 valve, quadruple intercoolers, faster than light engine with Kevlar doors and gold door knobs is one's cup of tea and he enjoys owning/driving it then what's the problem? I'd certainly prefer the above over that poseur's delight the Porsche Cayenne.

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But you have an opinion and counter-argued as expressed by you choice of descriptions.

How many times have you heard something and thought to yourself, the equipment chooser was deaf and missing something?

Regs
Pete

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Originally Posted by gx502

The decks were, an Audio-Note w/ Io-Gold MC, an Avid-Acutus/SME-V, and a Feickert Blackbird/Kuzma arm. (I also heard some mid-line OL decks.)

Of course we are talking about unfamiliar decks, listened to in unfamiliar systems, with at times unfamiliar music setup in hotel rooms. So the comparisons are pretty vague.

I am not saying that either of the two turntables I have at home are better than any of the above. But my overall feeling was that I am not missing all that much....

Kind regards....

PS: I only mentioned the brand new LP12, since Linn is a very established hifi manufacturer, and is indicative of a off the shelf solution.

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I think there are a couple major factors at play here. Firstly show exhibitors seem to be largely incapable of setting up a system to produce it's potential due to environmental problems or plain lazyness. Also the law of diminishing returns sets in rapidly. I have yet to hear a TT that shows a completely clean set of heels to a Mitchell Orbe within a sensibly priced system and in all round sound reproduction.

I have heard a few good ones that would be worth buying but for their very high price. There are a number of new decks that from reviews and forum comments may be worth the money but I haven't heard them. They all have subtle differences in presentation and any manufacturers top of the range model takes a particular approach to its limits.

The result is the expensive deck may be harder to live with for most listeners than something that is built with a good balance of compromises. This also applies very much to flagship speaker models. I think a lot of high pricing is a result of superfluous cosmetics and unecessary overengineering as well as limiting demand to a restricted manufacturing capability. To some buyers exclusivity is all in hi-end hi-fi. This is similar to ownership of Rolex watches and Ferraris.

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Originally Posted by Audioman

I have yet to hear a TT that shows a completely clean set of heels to a Mitchell Orbe within a sensibly priced system and in all round sound reproduction.

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It depends on what you mean by "a completely clean set of heels". I've heard my Techy, in an earlier stage of its development, against an Orbe, in a familiar system.

The Techy did not piss all over the Orbe, but rather it offered an equally valid take on the music listened to. I could still hear what I don't like about belt-drive T/Ts, but I could also hear what the owner preferred about his Orbe.

If you value wide soundstaging and a sense of delicacy and air and space around voices and instruments, more than anything else, then Michell T/Ts have few rivals - it's the 'thing' that they do right the most, just as unwavering speed stability, solidity, and its impact on music reproduced, is what the Techy (and other D/D T/Ts of similar quality), do best. It's simply a matter of defining what aspects of music reproduction are the most important to you.

There is no 'perfect' anything in audio - only different flavours of one's own definition of 'perfection'.

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I think a lot of high pricing is a result of superfluous cosmetics and unecessary overengineering as well as limiting demand to a restricted manufacturing capability.

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I completely agree. What it appears to be mostly about now, in the high-end, is who can sell the best 'sizzle', and thus create the greatest cachet with their products, amongst well-heeled audiophiles, through the desirability of owning the badge with their brand name on it.

Bullshit to that, I say, even though I could afford to play in that playground! :mental: :wanker:

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To some buyers exclusivity is all in hi-end hi-fi. This is similar to ownership of Rolex watches and Ferraris.

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Good luck to them. The majority of these people, however, in my experience, are rarely genuine music lovers, which for me is the whole point of owning a high-end hi-fi system!! It shouldn't be there as an ornament or a status symbol - if it is, then you've got it for the wrong reasons.

Marco.

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Originally Posted by bogle111

But you have an opinion and counter-argued as expressed by you choice of descriptions.

How many times have you heard something and thought to yourself, the equipment chooser was deaf and missing something?

Regs
Pete

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The essence of the argument remains the same though. I obviously have my own opinion on many things and know what I personally like/dislike - and I have certainly heard or read great things about equipment that I would personally never buy or recommend. But as it's all a matter of personal taste and we are all in a position to chose what suits us best - any counter argument becomes by definition redundant.

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Originally Posted by vouk

The essence of the argument remains the same though. I obviously have my own opinion on many things and know what I personally like/dislike - and I have certainly heard or read great things about equipment that I would personally never buy or recommend. But as it's all a matter of personal taste and we are all in a position to chose what suits us best - any counter argument becomes by definition redundant.

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Yes, I agree.

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Originally Posted by Audioman

I think there are a couple major factors at play here. Firstly show exhibitors seem to be largely incapable of setting up a system to produce it's potential due to environmental problems or plain lazyness. Also the law of diminishing returns sets in rapidly. I have yet to hear a TT that shows a completely clean set of heels to a Mitchell Orbe within a sensibly priced system and in all round sound reproduction.

I have heard a few good ones that would be worth buying but for their very high price. There are a number of new decks that from reviews and forum comments may be worth the money but I haven't heard them. They all have subtle differences in presentation and any manufacturers top of the range model takes a particular approach to its limits.

The result is the expensive deck may be harder to live with for most listeners than something that is built with a good balance of compromises. This also applies very much to flagship speaker models. I think a lot of high pricing is a result of superfluous cosmetics and unecessary overengineering as well as limiting demand to a restricted manufacturing capability. To some buyers exclusivity is all in hi-end hi-fi. This is similar to ownership of Rolex watches and Ferraris.

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Wholeheartedly agree. But then again there are many out there that wouldn't consider a Rolex or Ferrari as exclusive. Far from it.

Here's something that just occured to me & another point that Marc missed by way more than a country mile :lol:

I think Marco kind of alluded to it, but maybe even he didn't hit the nail on the head quite as squarely as he'd have liked ;)

This bloke appears to want something straight out of a box to be the be all & end all of the situation. I get the impression that if he didn't have to set the deck up in any way or even fit a cartridge he'd be a happy bunny.

Well there are people out there that don't like moving into a Barratt show home, they like to maybe renovate an older property to create something that is exactly what they are looking for, rather than simply keeping up with the Jones's.

What pride in ownership is there for people that can simply afford to drop a good few thousand on a TT compared to a person that has taken their time & built something that will do exactly what they want with far few compromises.

As Marco states, you'll be looking for a needle in a very substantial haystack if you want to find a modern top qualty direct drive turntable. While there is one that I believe uses the Techie motor (maybe), I can't think of another..

So you build it or compromise...

While I know there are manufacturers making incredibly expensive subwoofers out there, I neither have the money & neither am I willing to accept the compromises that these manufacturers have built into their own products!

No, I'd rather design & build my own & not compromise & have a heck of a lot more pride in ownership of what would be a unique item.

But then it's so much easier to compromise if you have a fat wallet isn't it :rfl: