Thank God I do not get into TT debates LOL!
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Thank God I do not get into TT debates LOL!
I've had a couple of 103's, both of them the original type with the conical stylus. They were used in several different arms with perhaps the best results in an Eminent Technology II and a Mayware Unipivot. It has a full bodied colourful sound with a vigour that many modern cartridges can't match however I think that its too crude an instrument to play my nice old late 50's & early 60's classical music on! The top end response is too coarse for me. Whether its the diamond used or the generator, I don't know. I can understand why people like it, but I'd take a vintage Ortofon every time and even the venerable Goldring 1040 mm with the vdH tip made more sense of string tone & brass. It'd be interesting to hear one of the souped up ones properly though.
Well... Here's an idea. Maybe!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Have you considered writing to/emailing Mr Keywood for an explanation rather than asking someone else to answer in his place?
It would seem like the decent thing to do IMHO.
Personally I think you might be being just a bit too 'touchy' about the whole thing. There are plenty of people who have no particular love for the 103, myself included as you know, but it doesn't need to effect the enjoyment of those that are a fan.
Just be happy with what YOU like and try not to take it so personally when others express a, erm, 'alternative opinion' about equipment that you happen to own and enjoy. ;)
Peace...
I agree its good for the money I've also had 2 and on another forum some moved to the spu-SL-15 and called the 103 a tractor.
I used it in a Hadcock and then a 12" home brew Shroeder instead of being limited to the first couple of tracks I was now limited to the LP's that it could handle.
I now have a 70's SL-15 and it does very well with everything thrown at it, so 103 is a TR7:)
1st post, so here goes........Quote:
Originally Posted by D Louth
I've been using a Denon 103R in an SME V for while now and I'm very happy with the the combination.:)
The SME V is mounted on an obsidian Technics plinth with an SP-10. I've also used the 103R in a Garrard 401/SME 3012/Loricraft combo with good results.
To get the best out of it you need to do some matching with a good phono pre. With the Technics combo, I have an upgraded WAD valve Pre3/Phono3S pre which they tailored for the impedance/output of the 103R.
Previously (with the Garrard 401/SME 3012), I have used a Denon AU-103 step up which was once sold (in Japan only, I think) with the 103R. This again was specifically made for the 103R. This fed in to a Lehmann Audio Cube SE with good results.
I don't have any inclination to change cartridge as I'm very happy listening to
the music, which is what it's all about, right?
When the 103R's have worn out, I'm think of having them retipped at Expert Stylus.
I won't bore you with amp/speaker bits just yet but they are in keeping with the bits of kit mentioned above.
Cheers
s
Guy,
There's much truth in what you say, and of course you can only report what your experience has told you. When you heard my KAB-1210 recently, however, I think you were quite impressed, and that was fitted with a DL-103R, but then I've 'gone the extra mile' necessary to get the most from it. The 103R is quite a bit better than a standard 103, but is nowhere near as good as 103Pro, and miles away from a 103SA. I've tried almost every version of the 103, 'souped-up' and otherwise, including in the 80s some of the rarer models such as the 'SL', 'D' and 'M' versions, so I know this cartridge inside out.Quote:
I've had a couple of 103's, both of them the original type with the conical stylus. They were used in several different arms with perhaps the best results in an Eminent Technology II and a Mayware Unipivot. It has a full bodied colourful sound with a vigour that many modern cartridges can't match however I think that its too crude an instrument to play my nice old late 50's & early 60's classical music on! The top end response is too coarse for me. Whether its the diamond used or the generator, I don't know. I can understand why people like it, but I'd take a vintage Ortofon every time and even the venerable Goldring 1040 mm with the vdH tip made more sense of string tone & brass. It'd be interesting to hear one of the souped up ones properly though.
Undoubtedly the standard 103 has its limitations, and you've highlighted some of them, but I think you'd be surprised just how much the crudeness and coarseness in the top end you refer to is ameliorated when using one of the better 'souped-up' models, and when the set-up and partnering ancillaries have been optimised down to the nth detail (particularly ensuring there is sufficient mass in the headshell used - the lack of which is largely the cause of the coarseness you describe), although the armtube itself need only be of medium to high mass. This is where the expense and knowledge comes in, and is the key to unlocking its quite considerable magic.
The question I would ask is this: how many people have gone to such lengths and expense, and therefore, *really* know what this cartridge is capable of?
It'll be very interesting to see what system David used last time in which to assess the 103 to have arrived at his current conclusions, particularly what deck he used, which version of the 103 it was, how the cartridge was set-up, what headshell and tonearm were used (this is absolutely crucial), and equally as crucial, what step-up transformer was used, or indeed if one was used at all - all this will show me whether or not he has heard the 103 properly and thus whether his experience is extensive enough to justify his extremely negative views.
It's interesting that you should mention vintage Ortofons. As you know, I've been experimenting with an SL-15 and results have been very promising, although I've yet to hear it at its best. What is quite clear though is that it shares similar traits with the 103 (it's that Alnico magnet thing again) but it had rather more refinement overall, although that was before I got the 103SA, which is very tasty indeed especially in the FR headshell - more on that later! However, I've certainly not heard the SL-15 at its best, but this will be rectified shortly with the arrival of its original matching transformer, so hopefully I'll be able to get to grips with it fully and compare it to the various Denons I have: 103SA, 'R', and Pro. I'll report my findings in due course.
Oh, incidentally, I personally wouldn't touch the Goldring with a bargepole! :nocomment:
Marco.
Thank you and welcome to AOS
I was hoping for a bit more info in any reply to my question( specific details). What sort of tracking weight, loading, gain needed and above all which is the best version. to look at getting and from where.
Marco is very caught up in his championing of the Denon, so he has now missed replying to two posts from me in the past days. Not an issue as such but in one case he said that he would and in the other, this one the question was asked of him.
I appreciate your response to my question Shahsy, and that you joined AOS to do so. Maybe you could share some more of your experience and what other bits of kit you use to get the results you get.
I quite like the Goldring MM carts. My first Cartridges were Goldrings used on an Ariston Q deck and then a Void Vadi, with Rega Rb 300 arm. First a Golring 1022 then a 1042 ( styli ) and finally an Eroica on the Valdi. For a quality upgradeable cart the 1000 seriers Goldrings are hard to beat IMHO. You can work your way up the better styli (the body stays the same).
regards D S D L ----- Neil :)
Mikey,
That's not what this is about at all. Please re-read what I wrote earlier on the other thread:Quote:
Personally I think you might be being just a bit too 'touchy' about the whole thing. There are plenty of people who have no particular love for the 103, myself included as you know, but it doesn't need to effect the enjoyment of those that are a fan.
Just be happy with what YOU like and try not to take it so personally when others express a, erm, 'alternative opinion' about equipment that you happen to own and enjoy.
Note in particular the bit in bold; you must have missed it the last time! ;)Quote:
All I'm asking for is some parity. I don't really give a monkey's what Noel thinks of the 103 (I will continue to use and enjoy it regardless), providing his opinion is grounded on sound knowledge and experience, otherwise there's no point in him expressing it in a well-established and respected national hi-fi magazine when his views appear to be based on a large dose of ignorance. Despite how it may seem, I'm not a 103 'fanboy'; I simply seek accuracy and informed comment on the matter so that people whom are less knowledgeable on the subject can make an informed choice and not be put off by someone's (apparently) deeply-ingrained bias.
Let me make one thing abundantly clear once and for all, so could everyone please 'listen up' and make sure this penetrates:
I personally don't give a flying toss whether Noel or anyone else likes or dislikes the cartridge I use. *However*, what I most certainly do care about is others not being put off the 103 (which could be exactly what they're looking for) by the heavily biased opinions being expressed in one of the UK's leading hi-fi magazines.
What David and Noel write in HFW, and the advice they give in the letters section, influences readers - of that there is no doubt - therefore it could make the difference between someone achieving satisfaction from their hi-fi system or not. That's why it's so important that they get it right. Regardless of whether one thinks they've got it right or not about the 103 (I personally don't) replying to a reader regarding his cartridge and telling him to "sell that tat" is not professional or in any way constructive advice.
Furthermore, it's always the same old cartridges that are recommended: Ortofon this, Audio Technica that, Goldring the next thing - what if you don't like their analytical style of presentation and seek something more 'wholesome' and 'organic', along the lines of the 103? Noel is as guilty of 'plugging' his beloved Ortofons and Goldrings as I am of the Denon! I think it's about time he started looking more 'outside the box'. The fact is, cartridges, like any other aspect of hi-fi, are not 'one size fits all'. A bit more variety of recommendations would perhaps ensure that David's and Noel's advice covers the needs of a wider audience.
What I'm aiming to achieve from this episode is for David and Noel to (hopefully) take on board my criticism, and bear it in mind in future when readers are writing into the magazine about the 103 - that's all; it's merely advice given with the best of intentions. Hopefully it might ensure that their comments in future don't alienate a proportion of their readership which happen to rate this classic little gem - there are a few of us around you know buying the magazine every month ;)
I've seen the 103 featured most months in the letters section, so it's essential that those writing in about it receive the best advice, and not advice based on 'politics' or ingrained individual bias.
As for writing to Mr Keywood, perhaps I might do that, but he is also welcome to register here just like David has done, and offer his thoughts, where he will be treated with the usual respect given to all our members.
Marco.
Indeed, my apologies Neil. I'll do the best I can to rectify this, but I can't guarantee anything as I have a busy day ahead and will be away for a few days up north from tomorrow.Quote:
Marco is very caught up in his championing of the Denon, so he has now missed replying to two posts from me in the past days...
Thanks for counting, though - it shows you care :) ;)
Shashy,
Welcome to AOS! We'll chat soon.
Marco.
Hi Neil,Quote:
Originally Posted by D Louth
The WAD Phono3S I had built for me by WAD as I am useless at kits. I believe the gain was set at 20:1 and the loading was set at 40 ohms.
According to the 103R manual the loading used should be a minimum of 100 ohms BUT 40 ohms when going in to a transformer.
As far as tracking weight goes, I am using 2.5g's. I did find that a bit of lead cut to the shape of the cartridge spacer that's needed with the SME V between the cartridge and the headshell made the sound richer.
The bit of lead in the headshell also helped things along with the SME 3012 when I was using that.
I went the whole hog later and got the WAD Pre3 XL but found that the usable range on the volume control was about 1cm. WAD then attenuated the Pre so I could have a more useable range of volume adjustment.
The kit being used with this is a Musical Fidelity A5CR power amp and some Tannoy DMT15's. The Tannoys being on the sensitive side (98db/1W@1M) obviously contributed to why so little of the volume control range was usable.
What I've ended up with is valve sweetness with effortless solid state grunt.
Anyway, 'hope this answers some of your questions and just to reiterate, I am very happy with the results and haven't found the need to 'experiment'.
Cheers
s