And how is WAF coming into effect here?
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And how is WAF coming into effect here?
Very well at the moment. No resistance!:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
:popcorn:
Whilst I was doing some evaluation I tried some improvised Bass traps. Killed the sound. Damped the Bass and killed the openess of the sound. Also lost some of the soundstage.:doh:
Inspired by this thread I removed several pictures with glass coverings. It appears things sound better, surely this is psychological ???
Jim, which bits of the soundstage are you trying to fine tune? What's your objectives?
Mainly the imaging and top end information. Controlling the first reflection points has had a dramatic effect on all aspects of the soundstage. It is now wider, deeper and all aspects of the recording can now be pin pointed and observed more clearly. Some of the information previously had been obscured by the screwed up reflections and timing I was getting from the tweeters which had bounced it round the room a bit too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakefield Turntables
Now everything in the recording is clearer and more intelligible. Acoustic reflections and recorded ambience are easier to discern and in some cases previously hidden aspects are now resolved far clearer. Bit like focussing a camera lens where you can see the image far clearer.
If you look through some of the links I have put up Andy you will understand what I am trying to achieve and some of the benefits I am now hearing.
:popcorn:
Lol..good news. You gonna push yer luck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Great result for small outlay. Some of us spend thousands to try to achieve what you're achieving here. Are you going further with thicker panels or are you leaving things as they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Any chance of some pictures of size/positioning James.
That's interesting re bass traps James.
Very likely what you hear is correct, if the pictures with glass covering are of a reasonable size they will be lovely reflectors, the wall is likelier a deader and less reflective medium so hence the perceived SQ improvement. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakefield Turntables
A great result, James. I think many do not realise just how SQ improvement can be made with some care speaker adjustments and sympathetic room treatment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I did a similar exercise a few months ago, and using REW measurements as I made changes I could not only hear the improvements but also see the changes in the frequency response at my listening position. I started tuning the speaker postion to its optimum within my room constraints and then added temporary dampers(curtains, fleece throes) and removed or cover up reflective items(TV, pictures). If I hang old thick curtains at the 1st & 2nd reflection points this really improves imaging and definition. I have put 2 art acoustic panels on the wall I face when listening and this also helps definition. On the wall behind me I put up all my old CD shelving and CDs randomly spaced along with some other objects this also helped. From the REW measurements I could achieve more improvement but that would mean installing bass traps and that would be a step too far for SWMBO. The temporary curtains at the 1st, 2nd reflection points I put up on 1m poles I hang in hooks on walls when I feel like it.
Great stuff Adrian and thanks for sharing your acoustic room journey. I agree that much can be achieved with heavy curtains and just rearranging pictures and furniture. I will be measuring my room with EQ Wizard when I get round to it. But in the meantime I am placing acoustic panels where I think I need them most which will be at the first reflection points. However I have much bigger ideas going forward so this is just the start!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by AJSki2fly
First panel made mate. Very happy with it so will continue this afternoon with next. I have some even bigger plans going forward which will mean a fair bit of construction and not only more panels but bigger as I have had the go ahead for Wall Art. Now I know how to construct these panels I have plans to go a lot further!:eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
I will put some pics up when they are up.
It was recommended to me to not get too hung up on a flattish frequencies response, but to try and get the reverb figures across the Frequencies to below 300ms, I have managed to get everything to around this apart from below 200Hz which varies up to 400msQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
So first finished panels are rolling of the production line....
These will be the first of many as I wanted to work out how to make effective panels first and then move on to larger and more ambitious stuff later. These are just for first reflection points in the critical positions but I do intend to produce a much larger one for the rear of the room and maybe two more if needed for the front of the room. Looking forward to assessing them this evening as they are rather better than the prototypes I constructed earlier in the week.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...e7316293_k.jpg35B7DC7A-773B-4BC7-B00C-8CA55480C6BA by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/]/url], on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...907f040b_k.jpg234910CF-A371-4898-B97E-0805825814D8 by Jy, on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...117c2ce3_k.jpgE411A1AC-66EC-42F5-8D76-571420391C29 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/y[/url], on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ce486def_k.jpg306698F6-94E4-42AA-A105-9CFF6687DEA9 by y, on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...f565ca62_k.jpgB1E12D6B-F645-486A-BEB9-EE4578252356 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/]/url], on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...9279fd58_k.jpgF2F7F1EC-B61A-4A2C-B780-25A088A4BF8B by , on Flickr
They look the business, but has your better half seen then or are they a surprise?:D
Yes they have been seen and approved, in fact she has requested more!:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by AJSki2fly
Can we see a picture with the curtains closed?
I want to see if they have any holes in them.... :ner:
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH
Panels look fab mate. They look as if they belong there. WAF off the scale then ;)
nice one jimbo,i keep meaning to knock some up myself so i will be interested in your findings mate.
:eek::lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
Just having a good listen tonight with the finished panels and have noticed considerable difference to well known material on my system. Once I get my head round everything going on I will pop some comments down.Quote:
Originally Posted by karma1967
Jim, I had a couple of pictures up in my listening room sitting slightly higher and just opposite my speakers. I've now removed these and I'm enjoying more coherence to the soundstage and I would even say it appears wider and deeper. I initially thought I was hearing things but it appears to have had a positive result. I've downloaded REW on will be hopefully getting a microphone, what have you started!!!
Brilliant Andy, to be honest I have been quite amazed at the difference treating the room with even just a bit of acoustic material. I will be adding more in future if I can hear a benefit. At the moment it is all producing great results and it all makes logical sense. The most profound differences are the soundstage,imaging and uplift in clarity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakefield Turntables
If you can do it cheaply and don't go mad I think it a no brainer to improve the sound you are getting from your system. I have had bigger benefits from the acoustic treatment than all the sound isolation improvements I have done on my turntable and system.:)
After a long session last night a few more observations for anyone who's interested.
1. Soundstage improvement. I have mentioned previously that I noticed a difference to the soundstage and that it was a tad bigger but actually it a little deeper with information in the recording now thrown even further back. Small but significant.
2. Clarity. This has been an intriguing one. Most folk, including myself when they here an improvement in clarity often say " I have heard things in the recording that I have never heard before" A bit like ultra resolution DACs and amps. All resolution and no soul. I never let myself get fooled by this as its a bit like turning up the treble years ago or similar to the VIVID setting on your TV.
What I observed was more subtle than that. I will try and articulate what I mean my talking specifically about vocals.
You know when you are listening to a piece of music and you can hear the vocals but can't quite catch what the actual words are and then you change something in your system and you can hear suddenly clearly what is being sung, how they are singing it and the intonation etc. This is the improvement in clarity I observed in the system. Along with greater tonal quality, naturalness and simple believability.
3. Tonal quality. I was not expecting any difference here but the panels have also attenuated the midrange driver somewhat as it is at the top of the speakers and so directly in firing line with the acoustic panels. `I noticed midrange and lower midrange information now had more tonal quality, a bit more layering of harmonics and weight in the notes especially piano.
4. Imaging. This was significantly improved. As I mentioned on early listening I noticed distinct "untangling" of information in the recording. Where a singer double tracked themselves and sounded muddy I could now hear two distinct vocals in the mix.
I must mention that I am only at the beginning of my room treatment project and have much greater plans but I don't want and in fact would not be allowed to get away with just throwing large slabs of rock wool in all the corners and putting corrugated dispersion panels everywhere as this is a living room and not a "Man Cave". If I did have such a room I would move a bit quicker but because of the WAF factor I have to tread carefully. However some of my later plans have been given the green light.:) So I intend to improve the rear wall behind my listening position and there will be quite a number of more panels on the walls. I am not expecting huge gains from lots of further acoustic treatment but we will see?
As I have mentioned I have a large amount of damping in the room with 3 sofas and I have actually tried some rough Bass traps with no discernible improvement what so ever. My speakers currently don't have large bass drivers anyway and I would say are a bit bass shy so I don't think I need more in this area. The walls are still a bit echoey further down to the listening position and there is still a fair amount of reverberation in the room but the speaker area once the heavy curtains are drawn now sounds way more controlled.
The project will continue as I am now more than convinced room treatment is an essential factor in obtaining the best from your system `But it does change the sound. If you have put together a system to work in your room and fine tuned it to your liking, throwing in lots of room treatment does produce quite a significant difference which you may or may not like. Speakers that were once bright can suddenly sound rolled off. You can loose bass and like I say go too far and kill the sound you enjoy so best tread slowly and carefully.
All of the improvements I have had are however positive and have greatly enhanced my listening experience to the point I am rediscovering records in a new light and hearing shades of information that were previously hidden by the room reflections.
One last thing. I have recently seen an article that measured room reflection timings from different parts of the listening environment and they found that at each timing difference certain aspects of the music were detrimentally affected so the conclusion was to limit these reflections and the multiple timings reaching your ear and you will hear a much improved sound from your system and all that implies. In other words try and get you top end information in particular to stop bouncing round the room too much and aim to receive more directly from the tweeter. This all makes logical sense to me and it will be in my thoughts as I proceed forward with the room.
Well explained James, sounds like you are getting good improvements. I think the key is to use room treatment up to the point where you are happy with what you are hearing, or you can go down the acoustics rabbit hole of flatness and blandness, if you get my meaning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
One thing I noticed when investigating is that Bass traps can be quiet tricky to deploy and get good results, a lot either don't go low enough or the have too large a frequency range which can dull everything down. I was recommended 2 panel Bass Traps with range limiter on the wall behind me, and one on the wall I was facing. But SWMBO balked at 0.6m by 1.2m panels 5.25' deep on the wall.
I agree Adrian, Bass is a tricky one to sort if you want to get the right balance. From most of the articles I have read the average size listening room does not suffer too much with Bass as it is often filled with furniture and people! The problem always occurs with speakers that are two big in a small room, then your fighting for control.Quote:
Originally Posted by AJSki2fly
Great post again James. I really like the way you take time to explain the process and the benefits. This thread is rapidly turning into an excellent reference point for anyone who is planning to explore the area of room treatment. I will be using it myself in the coming months when I go down this road, albeit on a smaller scale :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
That is brilliant and well described.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I have had gains like this specifically from two kit upgrades, firstly with the new speakers - Arke built Troel Gravesen Ekta Mk2, stunning performance.
Secondly when I finally removed the digital mush by installing a SOtM DDC into the USB output from the music server. I'm guessing the galvanic isolation may have been the reason for this improvement.
I have always had a high regard for Troel Gravensen projects and I can quite believe his speaker designs if implemented well, which I am sure Jason does perfectly, are fabulous sounding. I have not heard any but would definitely put them on my list of speakers to aspire too. I have looked at many of his designs which include some very big beasts which would probably suit my room very well.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebottle
The SOtM digital gear has always been very highly regarded too so not surprised their DDC is doing good things in your system. Anything that brings greater clarity to a system is a winner in my book as long as it does not reduce other aspects of the sound you enjoy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
Cheers Brian, writing my thoughts down as I go through any process helps me as a reference point for the future as I quickly forget! :doh: but if it is of any use to anyone else that is always a bonus. Not always easy to articulate what is going on with your system sometimes and you need time and thought to work it through so I try and capture this on my blog.
After a few more evenings and racking up quite a few hours listening to the new room arrangement I have to admit a "schoolboy error"! Sometimes when your doing stuff with your system you make stupid mistakes like wiring amps up wrongly or forgetting to check overhang on cartridges. In my eagerness to optimise the potential of any room treatment I had moved the speakers back and forth a number of times BUT I forgot to put them back in their original position!:doh: They have a sweet spot which is 90-100cm from the front wall to the front baffle. I had moved them 150-200cm and used acoustic panels to ameliorate the effects. This as I found out yesterday was a big mistake.
When I moved the speakers back to their original position all the benefits I had been hearing jumped a number of notches in SQ. I checked the alignment of the acoustic panels using the mirror method and I could still see the speakers tweeters and midrange units perfectly clear. The improvement once again was quite amazing.
Next stage will be to add more panels as I have already heard benefits from using acoustic material further down the side walls. I am yet to try anything on the back wall as I don't have anything large enough currently that will suit. As I have mentioned there seems to be no downsides in addressing the acoustics of the room apart maybe aesthetics. Improvements are across the board and improve everything audiophiles look for. I have lost nothing but gained so much in every respect to the sound and information I am hearing from my system.
Sounds good to me James!:)
Cheers Adrian. Just shows how easy it is to make silly mistakes in the rush to try something new!:doh::)Quote:
Originally Posted by AJSki2fly
Yes James I did the stupid mistake thing yesterday. I wanted to try a different ohm setting on the phono in the new Krell pre-amp(new to me). So I unplugged it all took off the lid, changed the dip switches and put it all back. Powered up, but total silence [emoji33][emoji22] I struggled round the back to check the connections, still nothing so panic setting in I removed it again and checked inside, all good so put it all back, powered on. No, no, no nothing still. [emoji22][emoji22]Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I was entering melt down phase and then suddenly noticed the Tape knob was pointing to tape not select. [emoji849] I must have moved it without realising, turned it to select and presto I had sound[emoji3]
Later I noticed a slight hum when not playing music but with had phono selected, not occurring on other inputs. Initially I thought I might have caused it but then I thought well it was not there when using the Sunilda phono stage. I sat down and had a cuppa tea and considered what might cause it. So I thought first this time rather than just unplug it all. Then a light bulb moment, the 90’s Hitachi tuner was sat on top of the Krell pre and but was not on, could it be it was causing the hum. I unplugged the mains to it and instantly silence, joy of joys, the Hitachi had power to its transformer and this was inducing the hum in the phono of the Krell phono. [emoji1]
So I have taken the tuner out of the system for know. The vinyl replay using the Krell phono is now very, very good, so I got there in the end[emoji23]
Great you managed to track down the gremlins and sort your system out! I bet the Krell amplification sounds sweet!Quote:
Originally Posted by AJSki2fly
I had a slight hum/buzz on my system at Christmas which drove me mad. Tracked it down to bloody fairy lights plugged into the same ring main. :doh::)
Don’t talk to me about fairy lights, my wife is an obsessive about them. You could land a small aircraft using the outside lights hung of the guttering and the trees are festooned. I’m sure I can here the transformers buzzing as I walk up the drive [emoji33][emoji51]Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by AJSki2fly
Good post again James. Just shows the importance of speaker positioning relative to listening position. Unfortunately due to a door I don't have much leeway with speaker positioning, although I haven't consciously or carefully adjusted speaker position to maximise SQ. Another job I need to take care of soon :)
Sometimes having a larger room can bring about its own issues as you have more options where as in a small room you can be limited regarding speaker position and related listening position. With larger rooms the options mean you can try a lot more positioning and it took me about 6 months before I found there really was only one ideal speaker position where they worked well with the room acoustics. As I found, it is important to always remember this as any room treatment should only be added in relation to this position and not the other way round!:doh:Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
I wouldn't have thought about maximising speaker position before adding room treatment but when I think about it, yes that rings true. I will be having a think about getting the most from my speakers in the coming weeks, then considering what to add in the way of room treatment after that.
Well, I've been very slowly messing about with my room. I banished all my pictures with a glass covering, I have to say that things do sound better. I'm always sceptical of such things but the soundstage just sounds a lot better. Difficult to pin down. I've had the same kit now for a number of years and you just know when things sound better or take a tumble and sounds worse. So, for me it's probably going to be some towels and sheets draped around the place, maybe at the sides of the speakers.
Does anyone have any thoughts on the effects of thick curtains sitting behind forward ported cabs? I have a thin bling sitting in front of my window which probably does next to bugger all with respects to reflections pinging around of the glass. I'm thinking big old thick curtains may work as a decent reflection damper?
It is quite a change Andy once you start treating the room with acoustic material and I found it took sometime for me to work out what had changed. Its a subtle but noticeable effect but so far I have found no downsides.
Without committing to any proper acoustic materials it is a good idea to try stuff you have lying around. Cushions, duvets and thick curtains are all good candidates to start with and even a blind drawn down over a window will. stop some first reflections. Furniture and carpet make a big difference and all add up!
However when you commit to making a few panels I can help point you in the right direction for very little money! See how you get on with the other stuff first. I would concentrate on first reflections first, they are the biggest bang for bucks!:)
A couple of quick bodge jobs. And no before you ask I'm not trying to dry the towels with the valve amps :lol:.
https://i.ibb.co/5BsrY8G/IMG-0319.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/VxK1bj8/IMG-0315.jpg
I've rolled the speakers back another couple of inches. I've also done my own school boy error in the ear position is not the same height as central speaker cone position. Central cone position in the Tannoys is 91cm from the ground, I tend to listen in a semi-slouched position, my ear height is approx 85cm from the ground, 6cm difference, so I'll be raising my listening chair with some castors. I'm already sitting up and I can tell that I'm missing out on a better soundstage experience. That's me just being bloody lazy!
pizzo tweeters??
No just Batpure (sic)?? tweeters from fleabay.Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
Sorry Jim, thread drift.
https://www.musicoff.com/musica-e-cu...-hi-fi-system/
yup. i have a set somewhere... think they are pizzoQuote:
Originally Posted by Wakefield Turntables
Piezo?
It does look a bit like your just drying some towels mate.:lol: