Caiman passive output mod revealed

We are in unchartered territory here Jerry. I myself have just ordered two of THESE in order to try out a solid cap instead of an electrolytic. I expect a loss in bass though with the drop in capacitance from 47uF.

I have a couple of Sanyo Os-Con polymer electrolytics and Wima MKS2 film capacitors on their way, will evaluate them and report my findings.

Clarity Caps are made by ICW. You can get free samples. I got some (although it was a few years ago) and they had my name printed on them!

They are very good IMO

I think that the Soniqs sold by World Designs are the same.

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Originally Posted by StanleyB

I expect a loss in bass though with the drop in capacitance from 47uF.

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It depends on the input impedance of your preamp. Mine is 47k so a drop to 22uF for the WIMAs should be fine, and even your 10uF polypropylenes (I assume, that's what they look like) would be ok. Are you driving a significantly lower input impedance?

f = 1 / (2 * Pi * R * C) to calculate the corner frequency, assuming low output impedance of the DAC chip.

One problem with using film caps here is size,there's not a lot of room,but yes,it's like coupling caps in valve amps,they all sound different.There's a lot of scope here for tuning the sound of the dac to suit your own taste.The Clarity Caps are very good-as coupling caps in a valve amp-but they are rated at 630v,and from what I've heard,high voltage caps don't work very well at the voltages in the dac.I've bought some of these to try-

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/comp...p_bipolar.html

These are quite large at 25 by 38mm.Haven't fitted them yet as I'm waiting for some 100nF caps to bypass these with.

But really,there are lots of different caps you could try here.Buy a few different ones and experiment.

I suspect film caps of some type will be best,but good ones of this value would not be cheap.

It's weird how the Caiman defies the law of diminishing returns. I can't think of a cheaper 'bangs for bucks' mod on any DAC right now.

You could send me a free Caiman! :lolsign:

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Originally Posted by MartinT

I have a couple of Sanyo Os-Con polymer electrolytics and Wima MKS2 film capacitors on their way, will evaluate them and report my findings.

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Oscons work well in digital supply decoupling applications but in the signal path I've always without exception found them poor, dull and grey sounding, never coming on song, this coming from bitter experience! YMMV but I think you'll waste a lot of burn in hours....

Ooh, I found a spare pair of Nichicon MUSE bipolar caps. They're inserted now, having a listen and letting them burn in.

Neal - I've had great results with Os-Cons in the past, must admit not as coupling caps. I thought it was worth the punt.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8070/8...e605aa3b_b.jpg

Well for me so far the 47uf FK's are the ones ;) Their fast, detailed and have the lowest distortion out of the ones I've tried , in comparison the polypropylenes and polyester sounded quite strained , excuse the description but they sounded plasticy in comparison to the FK's :rolleyes: The BG NX Hi-Q's was too soft. I tried a couple of polarised Nichicon FG's but these was sharp almost glassy in the high's . I've not tried the non polar Nichicons or Rubycons here yet

A note of warning, be very cautious with polymer based caps, these do tend to be electrically leaky so can give some unpleasant results used as coupling

BTW, the caps (TC1,TC4) going to pins 11 and 18 of the dac chip internal bias have quite an influence on the sound especially with the passive out mod, folks with the stock tants finding the sound a little bright can try changing those to something like Silmics , BG's, Nichicons etc if they wish.
I've now fitted a pair of used 10uf BG N's here and will have a good listen when its had chance to settle down, oh I had one spare used 100uf 25v BG FK so decided to stick that on part of the dacs decoupling (replacing the stock electrolytic TC1 ) I can go back to the stock caps easy enough if they don't suit

Hi Stan,

Just out of curiosity, did this new mod come to you by chance, or from experiments towards a more streamlined DAC only project with minimal components in the path?

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Originally Posted by leo

Well for me so far the 47uf FK's are the ones ;) Their fast, detailed and have the lowest distortion out of the ones I've tried , in comparison the polypropylenes and polyester sounded quite strained , excuse the description but they sounded plasticy in comparison to the FK's :rolleyes: The BG NX Hi-Q's was too soft. I tried a couple of polarised Nichicon FG's but these was sharp almost glassy in the high's . I've not tried the non polar Nichicons or Rubycons here yet

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Hi leo,

Glad to see you are having at least as much success out of the FKs as I am - I just love their bass, gorgeous texture and amazing levels of ambient info. Quality is fluctuating and generally improving as they are breaking in - will probably take two weeks. I'd be keen to read your thoughts on the Rubycon Bipolars - which might lead to another order from Tirna. Silmics or Cerafines on the outputs might be worth a try as well.

Andrew

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Originally Posted by AndrewR

Okay guys, before you get your soldering irons out, leo's post (number 106) inspired me to remove the op-amp board and directly insert the 47uF caps into the PIN3A socket in the board underneath.

http://www.hifiwatcher.com/wp-conten...ified-7520.jpg

From back to front of PIN3A (actually called "PIN3B" on the lower board) the connections are:

o Cap A +ve
o Cap A -ve
o no connection
o Cap B -ve
o Cap B +ve

I happened to find I had some spare 16V Blackgate 47uF (FK Series) - while I've previously had a rough time breaking in BGs in valve amps in the past, these are starting to improve quite rapidly (15 mins now).

The great thing about doing it this way is that I can swap in/out caps to find my favourite - probably a better final result than sticking with the first or second iteration that's been soldered in. Also better for the resale value when upgrading to any lovely future recipe exiting Stan's front door :)

Just using headphones, but the sound is already more "direct" and far better bass. Also starting to get some more texture to the sound. The volume setting on my amp had to be adjusted from 73/100 to 90/100.

Might consider making a standalone headphone board. Anyone know the name of the PIN3A and PIN4A connectors?

Andrew

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Sorry to be thick - does this mod improve the variable out and retain use of the volume control (i.e. Caiman used as a preamp). I only ask because I have no way of testing first (only have a multimeter) and really like my speakers and am scared to try it!

Regards

Chris

It doen't look like Hifi Collective have the Black Gate 47uf FK's in stock. Anywhere else they are available?

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Originally Posted by chrism

Sorry to be thick - does this mod improve the variable out and retain use of the volume control (i.e. Caiman used as a preamp).

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Yes it does, but bear in mind that the volume level is at least 3dB less without the line opamp.

OK guys, help an ignorant tool out. I am at work, there are a couple of Maplin's branches within walking distance and I would love to try the non-destructuve version of this mod over the weekend.

Given Maplin's typical stock, what should I go for - happy to get a few different pairs. Can anyone take the time to look at what they do and point me at the right spec in their catalogue ? From the thread I don't want anything too high in voltage specs and never lower (than 15V).

Would grwatly appreciate it. A quick search gets me 8 types: http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criteria=47uF

Hi Peter, I can't see anything useful on their site. I have a couple of non-polarized 47uF/16V to try. You can pass by after work and have a pair if you wish:). I have one Rubycon you can have as well. Dunno if I can find another one though.

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Originally Posted by Peter Galbavy

OK guys, help an ignorant tool out. I am at work, there are a couple of Maplin's branches within walking distance and I would love to try the non-destructuve version of this mod over the weekend.

Given Maplin's typical stock, what should I go for - happy to get a few different pairs. Can anyone take the time to look at what they do and point me at the right spec in their catalogue ? From the thread I don't want anything too high in voltage specs and never lower (than 15V).

Would grwatly appreciate it. A quick search gets me 8 types: http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criteria=47uF

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Trouble is those Maplins caps are all pretty crap TBH, the SE looks like it may be the best of them, the AT96E or AU01B. There's only 2.5v across the cap in cct so a 6.3v would work OK.....

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Originally Posted by Covenant

It doen't look like Hifi Collective have the Black Gate 47uf FK's in stock. Anywhere else they are available?

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Try the standard ones if Nick has them, there's not a huge difference between them TBH

I'm going to continue to use the standards for now and try the replacing the two caps Leo mentioned above, if that doesn't improve the vocal presentation then I'll knock up a linear supply and try that...

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Originally Posted by Covenant

It doen't look like Hifi Collective have the Black Gate 47uf FK's in stock. Anywhere else they are available?

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Hi Jerry

I've ordered several items from Parts Connection, good service.

It appears they have some in stock. I don't own a Beresford but others here may like to make up an order.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/capaci...ackgate_f.html

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Originally Posted by StanleyB

Hi Peter, I can't see anything useful on their site. I have a couple of non-polarized 47uF/16V to try. You can pass by after work and have a pair if you wish:). I have one Rubycon you can have as well. Dunno if I can find another one though.

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Thanks Stan, I may well do that - but over the w/e if it's OK ? Supposed to be social tonight :)

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Originally Posted by Peter Galbavy

Thanks Stan, I may well do that - but over the w/e if it's OK ? Supposed to be social tonight :)

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OK:).

Oh wow. Don't you just love cap burn in.....the china in the cabinet is now dancing around to the bass notes :eek:

Close miked female vocals are much better, still some hardness but it's improved, I don't think it will improve much more....time for some more cap Rollin' and tweakin'

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Originally Posted by NRG

Oh wow. Don't you just love cap burn in.....the china in the cabinet is now dancing around to the bass notes :eek:'

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I did mention it in my opening statement of this mod ;). Anyone wishing to pit their CDP or DAC against the Caiman with passive mod :)?

Could someone please explain what difference putting a 100nF cap across the main cap used in the passive output mod will make to the sound? Also, what type of cap should be used for this? Electrolytic, polyester, polystyrene, silver mica etc etc?

Also, my power amps have a 50K input impedance, so what are the maximum and minimum capacitance ratings suitable for the main cap?

Thanks. :)

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Originally Posted by StanleyB

Yes it does, but bear in mind that the volume level is at least 3dB less without the line opamp.

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Thanks Stan,

Does the mod stop use of the headphones? I only ask as I tried non polar caps into the Pin 3B socket and no sound - was trying this before feeding it into my power amp (still scared to have full vol into my speakers).

Regards

Chris

If you take out the audio PCB you won't have any headphone output.

Thanks again Stan, Will just have to go for it and be ready to pull the plug - fast! Now where are my old Kinn Keilidhs to use as a sacrificial lamb.

Regards

Chris

Thanks Stan,

Got is going (no mishaps) and it sounds good. Volume control needs to be up at around 1 oclock to get a nice vol level - is there a mod that helps this?

Gone for the non-polar Rubycons 47/16v initially.

Regards

Chris

I'm waiting for most of mine to arrive and will then conduct a little 'coupling cap bake-off'. The Nichicon MUSE caps are burning in at home right now, will have a proper listen tonight via CD rather than Sky HD.

Leaving the lid off and using the socket means that caps can be swapped around very quickly.

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Originally Posted by HighFidelityGuy

Could someone please explain what difference putting a 100nF cap across the main cap used in the passive output mod will make to the sound? Also, what type of cap should be used for this? Electrolytic, polyester, polystyrene, silver mica etc etc?

Also, my power amps have a 50K input impedance, so what are the maximum and minimum capacitance ratings suitable for the main cap?

Thanks. :)

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Small bypass caps are usually good quality metal film plastic ones, avoid ceramic in the signal path IMHO. The idea is normally used on 'lytics to improve HF performance where nearly always 'lytics have poor performance. However, this tends not to apply IME to good quality caps like BlackGates who's HF performance is very good if not better than some plastic caps, so unless you are using cheapo 'lytics just stick to a single good quality cap.

With your 50K input a 22uF in the signal path will form a high pass filter with the knee (-3db) at 0.14 Hz! That means all signals above 0.14Hz are said to pass unattenuated....47uF halves that to 0.07Hz...essentially everything will get through!

If we aim for around 1Hz then your cap can shrink easily to 4.7uF or 2.2uF meaning it may be possible to avoid a 'lytic completely and go for a quality film n foil cap like the Mudorf's etc.

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Originally Posted by NRG

Small bypass caps are usually good quality metal film plastic ones, avoid ceramic in the signal path IMHO. The idea is normally used on 'lytics to improve HF performance where nearly always 'lytics have poor performance. However, this tends not to apply IME to good quality caps like BlackGates who's HF performance is very good if not better than some plastic caps, so unless you are using cheapo 'lytics just stick to a single good quality cap.

With your 50K input a 22uF in the signal path will form a high pass filter with the knee (-3db) at 0.14 Hz! That means all signals above 0.14Hz are said to pass unattenuated....47uF halves that to 0.07Hz...essentially everything will get through!

If we aim for around 1Hz then your cap can shrink easily to 4.7uF or 2.2uF meaning it may be possible to avoid a 'lytic completely and go for a quality film n foil cap like the Mudorf's etc.

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Awesome, thanks for taking the time to explain all that. It all makes sense now. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Covenant

It doen't look like Hifi Collective have the Black Gate 47uf FK's in stock. Anywhere else they are available?

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I had the same response from HiFi collective too, I put an order into HiFi connections though and it seems they have them so with a bit of luck you should be able to get some too.

Cheers Andy

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Originally Posted by OLED

I had the same response from HiFi collective too, I put an order into HiFi connections though and it seems they have them so with a bit of luck you should be able to get some too.

Cheers Andy

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Could you give a link to them please Andy?

Try this http://www.partsconnexion.com/capaci...ackgate_f.html

Thanks Leo but they have a minimum order value.

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Originally Posted by leo

Try this http://www.partsconnexion.com/capaci...ackgate_f.html

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Two minds but a single thought :eyebrows:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showp...&postcount=171

I've tried more caps and still yet to find anything to better the FK's :doh: The idea is try and find something as good and in current production . Still not tried the non polar Rubycons or Nichicons.

Its funny because I've never been a huge fan of BG's, they seem to work well in this application though :)

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Originally Posted by Tripmaster

Two minds but a single thought :eyebrows:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showp...&postcount=171

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:lolsign:

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Originally Posted by leo

I've tried more caps and still yet to find anything to better the FK's

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I have polar Elna Silmic II and Nichicon KZ coming, as well as Sanyo Os-Con polymer and Wima film caps. The Nichicon MUSE bipolars I'm running at the moment are clean, distortion-free with a lovely midrange and tight bass, but perhaps just a touch light in the latter.

More next week.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

Thanks Leo but they have a minimum order value.

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MINIMUM ORDER:
There is no minimum order, but ALL ORDERS UNDER $25 (before shipping is calculated) are subject to a $5 HANDLING FEE in addition to the shipping fee.

Its only a £3.20 handling charge

Oh boy, :rolleyes: don't get hung up on must have FK's...try the standard ones if they are available, the FK's are not better just different, the standard may suit your system better.

Edit: I have some FK's I'll try 'em tomorrow and report back....

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Originally Posted by NRG

Oh boy, :rolleyes: don't get hung up on must have FK's...try the standard ones if they are available, the FK's are not better just different, the standard may suit your system better.

Edit: I have some FK's I'll try 'em tomorrow and report back....

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You are right-I will just get a couple of muse.

Somehow I get the feeling that there's a lot of listening to the passive Caiman going on;). Dispatches from the battle front on the state of play are few and far between:cool:.

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Originally Posted by NRG

Oh boy, :rolleyes: don't get hung up on must have FK's...try the standard ones if they are available, the FK's are not better just different, the standard may suit your system better.

Edit: I have some FK's I'll try 'em tomorrow and report back....

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That would be good Neal, I don't have any standards so can't compare myself, the thing is I think its because the FK's I tried are just way infront of everything else I have so if the standards are as good or maybe better that'll be great :cool:

Going with the linear psu, better 5v reg, BG's for the coupling and decoupling of the dacs 5v and its internal bias , I must say this is the best (to my ears) I've heard this dac .

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Originally Posted by MartinT

I have polar Elna Silmic II and Nichicon KZ coming, as well as Sanyo Os-Con polymer and Wima film caps. The Nichicon MUSE bipolars I'm running at the moment are clean, distortion-free with a lovely midrange and tight bass, but perhaps just a touch light in the latter.

More next week.

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Just be very careful with those Polymers mate, they can be leaky electrically . I knew a guy who used Sanyo SEP's as coupling in his linestage , he started noticing weird cone movements on one of his speakers , long story short it was DC offset caused from one of the SEP's .
Not wanting to scaremonger and they could of course be fine, just wanted to let you know:)

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Originally Posted by StanleyB

Somehow I get the feeling that there's a lot of listening to the passive Caiman going on;). Dispatches from the battle front on the state of play are few and far between:cool:.

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I'm finding the passive output to have more finesse so far, not had any sharpness and no loss of detail :cool:
Its a real nice mod if its suited to the rest of your kit

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Originally Posted by Covenant

It doen't look like Hifi Collective have the Black Gate 47uf FK's in stock. Anywhere else they are available?

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I just found that the links for Nichicon and Black Gate are mixed-up on the Hi-Fi Collective website. Just click the Nichicon link and you'll find the Black Gates.

Andrew

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Originally Posted by AndrewR

I just found that the links for Nichicon and Black Gate are mixed-up on the Hi-Fi Collective website. Just click the Nichicon link and you'll find the Black Gates.

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But they appear to have no useful values left of the standard, C or N types.