What it sounds like is all that matters :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Printable View
What it sounds like is all that matters :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Hi Mark,
Indeed - perhaps then the DC cable linking the PSU to the T/T is acting like an aerial and thus picking up some RFI and transferring it to the internal circuitry of the turntable?Quote:
There should be no noise at all on the DC output of a high quality PSU such as Pauls.
Whatever it is, I can definitely hear the noise floor with music significantly reduced when a woven cable, like the Kimber, is used instead of the 'el cheapo' black & white DC cable supplied with the likes of the Timestep PSU :)
I like that idea! We'll need to try it next time you come down :cool:Quote:
My thought on a DC lead would be to use something screened.
Rather than trying to cancel out any noise the cable picks up from the atmosphere with a braid, stop anything getting in to the cable with a screen. The high quality PSU should be a clean DC output anyway.
If Anyone is interested in experimenting, the cable used in my DSP 1.0 power cable should be ideal.
Marco.
The weave cancels inductance and introduces capacitance, which is fine for a DC application as it will help to reduce RFI.Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
Indeed, and that's precisely what I'm hearing :)
There's definitely mileage in future PH SR3/5s and Timestep PSUs being supplied with high quality DC cables at whatever extra cost.
Marco.
Marco
Is the Kimber cable that you have a 3-way braid, or a twisted pair? I had notably better results when powering the KD-770D from the SR5, using Kimber twisted pair, than with some shielded Belden stuff. Paul Hynes did supply the Belden stuff against his own recommendation, which I should have heeded!
Hi Hugo,
The Kimber cable I have is a twisted set of three thin cables: red, black and blue.
In use, the black and blue cables are simply twisted together and connected to the earth point on the main PCB, as Leo and you showed earlier on your pictures, and the red wire to its usual place on the PCB.
I don't know about the merits of shielded vs. twisted pairs, as I haven't compared the two yet, but I can say for certain that employing the RFI-cancelling effect of the woven Kimber DC cable is a sonic no-brainer :)
I had simply not realised until now how badly the cheapo black & white DC cable was holding back the performance of my T/T!!
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Are you using the DC plug as in the pic you posted? I know that for his other power supplies Paul would place such plugs right at the bottom of his list, contact resistance is somewhat hit and miss.
Hi Clive,
No, I'm using it with an XLR plug instead.
I've got no idea whether that made a difference or not, sonically, but the nice 'clunk' as the XLR plug slots into the back of the SR5 is rather more reassuring than the somewhat 'floppy' and less precise contact obtained when using the DC plug! :)
However, I'm sure that addressing contact resistance is a viable consideration. Regardless if one can hear a sonic improvement or not, using XLRs is quite simply a neater and more professional solution.
Marco.
Perfect. Probably I would have realised that if I'd paid more attention!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
For everyone's information, the Kimber Link cable is actually Kimber PBJ signal cable with a sleeve over it, and is £14.40 for 1m off the reel. You can see it here:
http://www.russandrews.com/product.a...WPPOUWVBGLUMCR
I have used this cable in the past for interconnect applications and it's excellent, I hadn't realised that it lends itself to DC applications too. I am ordering a length now.
Hi Marco,
The DC leads I normally supply with the SR3, the SR5 and the SR7 are constructed from three cores that are braided, either with oxygen free copper with synthetic silicone rubber insulation, or fine silver with Teflon insulation. I am not claiming any originality for this construction method. It has been used by Ray Kimber, and others in the audio industry. I like the way this type of cable works whether for signal or power leads.
Martin is correct in stating that the construction method increases the core to core capacitance, and reduces inductive effects. It’s also good at rejecting RFI. This is precisely what is required when the power source is any distance from the load. This type of cable is beneficial in this instance as the very low impedance at high frequencies, of the SR power supplies, would be progressively decoupled along a cable without these characteristics, which would reduce the effectiveness of the power supply in damping RFI along the cable. An inductive cable would show rising impedance with frequency, allowing more RFI pickup. Longer leads would exasperate this situation as the further away from the power supply the higher the high frequency impedance would be. It’s all a question of degree, as with anything in HiFi, you have to look at the operating conditions and optimise the working environment in the best way you can. This is why the remote power supply is not the whole answer and why internal regulator installation in the SL1200/SL1210 provides optimisation of the power supply to load distance issue allowing lower impedance at the load itself as well as isolating circuit section power feeds from each other.
I used to provide design consultancy to Russ Andrews circa late 1980’s and early 1990’s, and everything we worked on had the Kimber version of the woven triple core cable in the signal path, either copper or silver, and the multicore woven cable in the power distribution for DC and mains. I have to say that Ray’s cable products are excellent and I am happy to endorse them.
Regards
Paul
Woops! I forgot to discuss the connector issue.
A quality XLR with a typical contact resistance when new of around 3 milliohms is a far better connector than the low cost DC connectors. Even better is the Jaeger industrial connector with a typical contact resistance of less than 1 milliohm. As a custom option I fit the Jaeger to all my power supplies for the DC outlet.
Regards
Paul
I think the kimber speaker cable and kimber mains cable or one and the same, any decent mains cable will work better than the thin ones supplied by most manufacturers with their kit.
I have always used the Kimber classicPowerKord which comes fitted with a 13amp fuse and a sticker on the MK plug stating that warranty is denied if this sticker is removed, so far I've never had to replace a blown fuse, except on my Naim XPS2 but thats another story and a half. The Timestep mains cable that came with my TS HE PSU is fused for 5 amps but I'm not going to put a 5amp in the Kimber cable, which I will use, as Russ once advised me that it was the correct fuse for his/Kimber cable, I take that as being correct unless someone knows better?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
The 'ordinaire' cable that came with my TS HE has joined others in a gubbins box for emergencies, anyone want to buy it for your electric car :lol:? Don't think it will give you extra mileage?
Now, at last, I have found my TS HE PSU, lost in the loft (I'm sure I'm haunted or summat :scratch:) and the connecting chord to the PSU is a four hole locking collar type, looks good too and maybe it should fit the PH PSU making any furture comparisons for me that much easier?
If I could get my brain and ability around posting pictures I would do a set on the TS HE with connecting chord as you can get a better idea. Have tried following the directives given, herein, but Photobucket will not download?????? Can email the pics to anyone and they put them up? The underside of the unit is locked by a large cross head bolt, presumably to hold a tranformer and make it awkward to slide the innards out for viewing, but it can be done by the really inquisitive boffin or two:eyebrows.
Who amongst us have messed around with ferrite rings? I've put one on the aforementioned Kimber PowerKord but as yet it has not had a test flight.
Ron
I use all Kimber PowerKords in my system and have replaced all the fuses with the special Russ Andrews audiophile 13A fuses (I believe all new PowerKords come with these new fuses fitted). They sound excellent and work really well with the PS Audio Powerplant regenerator. This is not an area I intend to change.
Oh no not another mains cable debate starting up!
Isn't that right up your street? :)
There is no 'debate'.... Furutech-modified MG DSP2.5s are best, so sez me - end of! :eyebrows:Quote:
Oh no not another mains cable debate starting up!
;)
Marco.
Not really because they always end up with fall outs and heated arguments and various slanging matches etc, etc, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
AOS is probably slightly different in that a lot of the members have good enough systems to hear the differences mains cables make. If you had a Marantz CD62 Mk II then maybe not!
Aside I hear very good reports about the PS audio power plant, 2 of my customers have one and say that it's the business!
You were endorsing everyone's favorite cable seller earlier Marco.... Russ Andrews, make your mind up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Bet you don't have a decent fuse inside the Furutech plugs eh??? £85 for a mains plug and it comes with a 9p fuse in it.
Lol - how do you know I haven't changed the stock fuses for something better? (I have actually!) ;)
The DC cable I mentioned is one of the few RA cables I'd endorse, as it suits the particular application concerned perfectly.
Generally though, I'm not a big fan of their cables, out with of the ridiculously expensive Select range, which I've heard work superbly well in Martin's system :)
Marco.
Just guessing with the fuses as you have already experienced people becoming a bit militant about them! Some think they are a gimmick, others not.
RA is a good marketeer and woven cable has it's place in some systems but not in others. The DC cable you can use kimber speaker cable as that is all it is I reckon!
Indeed. I don't like woven cable as mains leads in my system, and instead prefer Mark Grant's shielding approach with his DSP2.5s.
Regarding the Kimber DC cable, to be precise, it is PBJ internal signal cable, as Martin outlined earlier, shown here:
http://www.russandrews.com/product.a...WPPOUWVBGLUMCR
And because in this application one should really not use any more than a metre, if at all possible, I'd say that £14.40 is total bargain, given the sonic upgrade this cable provides :)
Marco.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for a detailed analysis as usual of the subject at hand :)Quote:
Hi Marco,
The DC leads I normally supply with the SR3, the SR5 and the SR7 are constructed from three cores that are braided, either with oxygen free copper with synthetic silicone rubber insulation, or fine silver with Teflon insulation. I am not claiming any originality for this construction method. It has been used by Ray Kimber, and others in the audio industry. I like the way this type of cable works whether for signal or power leads.
Martin is correct in stating that the construction method increases the core to core capacitance, and reduces inductive effects. It’s also good at rejecting RFI. This is precisely what is required when the power source is any distance from the load. This type of cable is beneficial in this instance as the very low impedance at high frequencies, of the SR power supplies, would be progressively decoupled along a cable without these characteristics, which would reduce the effectiveness of the power supply in damping RFI along the cable. An inductive cable would show rising impedance with frequency, allowing more RFI pickup. Longer leads would exasperate this situation as the further away from the power supply the higher the high frequency impedance would be. It’s all a question of degree, as with anything in HiFi, you have to look at the operating conditions and optimise the working environment in the best way you can. This is why the remote power supply is not the whole answer and why internal regulator installation in the SL1200/SL1210 provides optimisation of the power supply to load distance issue allowing lower impedance at the load itself as well as isolating circuit section power feeds from each other.
I used to provide design consultancy to Russ Andrews circa late 1980’s and early 1990’s, and everything we worked on had the Kimber version of the woven triple core cable in the signal path, either copper or silver, and the multicore woven cable in the power distribution for DC and mains. I have to say that Ray’s cable products are excellent and I am happy to endorse them.
My experience with Kimber cables is somewhat hit and miss. Some are undoubtedly excellent designs, but the current range I feel lacks some consistency.
However, the woven PBJ cable is undoubtedly superb when used as a DC cable.
It would be interesting at some point to compare either the oxygen free copper with synthetic silicone rubber insulation, or fine silver with Teflon insulation cables you use with the Kimber DC cable I have here :cool:
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I haven’t tried Ray Kimber’s latest offerings so I should have ring fenced the cables statement to the period I was using them.
My favourite ones were the KCAG for signal or low current power where cost wasn’t an issue and PSB for signal and low current power or 8TC/16TC for loudspeaker and high current power when cost had to be considered.
I just use 3 cores woven now but with different materials and wire gauges suitable for the current rating required. Using larger guage wire flies in the face of audio wire theory for some applications but it offers very good sound quality without complex construction requirements and this is all I am looking for in my system where I keep everything in the signal path as simple as possible. The fine silver also makes good interconnects and loudspeaker leads.
Next time I am making cables (usually monthly) I will prepare a copper and a silver cable for you to try. How long do you need them for your current installation?
Regards
Paul
Hi Paul,
That would be great - say 1.5m, just to be safe? PM me when you have some ready :)
I agree regarding Kimber cables. RA has in my opinion extended the range to a ridiculous level for the sake of profit. Personally, I would prune the range to about half of what it is just now, retaining only the stuff that represents the best SPPV :cool:
Marco.
I have an old Kimber power cord, which doesn't work well for me as a mains cable for audio. it does well on one of the computers though and hopefully helps isolate the noisy smps from the mains as a whole. For now, Mark Grants excellent value mains leads are fine, even with bog standard plugs (only well off obsessives need look at the Furutek plug alternatives - and I'm NOT having a pop here either :)), as with the standard plugs, there is a very beneficial difference, especially from wall to distribution block.
If you visit the 'Cable Company" site; retail sellers for the whole Kimber Kable range in the US, you will find that there are nearly a hundred or more wiring/cable options. I have just ordered 3M of the TCX X-VariStrand Hookup Wire at $26.00 per 6 foot lengths.
This I am told is good for up to 3 amps. I believe this would present a more flexible option than the PJB signal cable.
http://thecableco.com/prodListing.php?cat=96&man=26
I received the Kimber PBJ cable yesterday, shortly before Paul Hynes' shielded DC cable arrived. I've gone with the Kimber for the moment because it came first and I am a big Kimber fan (sorry Paul but I have a crafty plan for your cable - more later).
The PBJ is a triple braided cable and I soldered it up according to Kimber's recommendation, i.e. blue/black to -ve at source, red to positive. Blue is then cut short at destination, acting only as a drain wire with black and red going to the earth tag and PCB respectively. I also cleaned the earth tag with acetone (thanks, Stan) and put it under the PCB to make a direct connection with the earth track (thanks, Mike), tightening everything up thoroughly. I covered the cable with some nice blue heatshrink sleeving to ensure that the braiding is held tight and not subject to air-borne vibration. Overall I used 0.8m of the cable, long enough to give a comfortable bend to the SR5 but not so long that it dangles.
Playing some music just now, I could hear the difference despite being slightly skeptical of a short DC cable swap. Among others I played some Bachman Turner Overdrive and imagine my surprise when I could hear the improvement in resolution of the two distinct guitars and the shape of the hi-hat, as well as the incredible cleanliness of the original recording. I'm going back to play some more selections now.
:wow:
Cables making things sound better, surely I must be on the wrong forum.
Nice one, Martin - glad the Kimber PBJ has worked out well! :)
The improvement it brought with my T/T was quite marked, so I suspect when you play more recordings you're familiar with, you'll realise just how significant this little tweak is ;)
Marco.
while we are on the subject of mains cables, I've just secured me 1.5m of Kimber Crystal 24 which I believe is what is used in the signature powerchord (only £400 for the 1.5m version:eyebrows:). I intend to make into the mains cable for my amp! Already had a spare clipsal (since the last cables I made with Yarbo cable) so now I just need another wattgate for the other end. David do you do any "deals" on them for members?
Also as I was catching up through this thread, I noticed the comments about the earthing and cleaning the gnd connection. Does it make that much difference (my earth is soldered onto the board)? I have access to isopropyl alcohol (my better half is a lab tech!) so I'm going "not" buy some detoxit and set about cleaning all my connections!
Is the gain based purely from the connection of the supply to the board? In which case I'd just advise soldering directly to the pcb or is it to do with grounding the deck casting? In which case, could it be worth tapping an M6 into the chassis somewhere and tacking a decent return?
Again going back through the thread, I've always braided my cables. Having said that, the PJB does represent excellent VFM!
:cool:
Ian, the key point is to use the bottom-left corner of the PCB as that is the earth return point for a lot of the tracks. If you have soldered to it, all well and good as the cleaning advice is only for when using a tag for the screw hole. However, if you have used another location for your -ve return then you may make a small gain by moving it.
OK, my point here is simply that if you have board out and you are fitting a regulator, why would you use the screw down gnd connection and not solder it directly to the board. The primary return would then be via a soldered connection on the main PCB and not the tagged screw connection. I would suggest that the gnd connection to the chassis is also important maybe as a screen to electronics. I would treat this connection as secondary to the soldered path back to the regulator. i.e. single ended and not connecting the regulator gnd to the chassis. I would still look for the best possible connection to gnd for the chassis hence the suggestion of tapping a better anchor point.
I think that makes sense!!! it does in my messy brain anyway!:rolleyes:
I am thinking of the chassis gnd much in the same way that some interconnects use the braid only connected at one end of the cable. i.e. they have 2 cores for signal and return/gnd and the briad is only at gnd at one end and therefore not part of the return path.
Taking it a step further, the chassis could be connected to the regulator gnd and isolated from the pcb??:stalks: a basic start on "star" earth?
Clearly the thought of connecting to "any old gnd" when you have paid for some commercial regulation/PSU upgrades is very much a cause for concern!!!!???:scratch:
Edit- as Paul and his PSU's are tagged in the thread I would just like to point out that I am referring to information further back in the thread relating to some other peoples PSU upgrades and NOT Pauls practice or his PSU's
Maybe if the ground wire is screwed in the corner and the wires from the stock internal reg is cut it makes doing the job much easier (although not optimal) ? I don't think you have to take the pcb out to wire up the lead for the external psu if done the quick bodge way ? :whistle:
For us diyers we can take longer so can afford to rip the thing apart , mines currently wired to allow quick dismantling for trying other mods, once finished the wiring will be re-done as fit and forget , all wires will be soldered onto the pads
de-oxit wipes are brilliant for cleaning all sorts of bits in your hi-fi, and they cost next to nowt! PM your address and I will post you a couple gratis to try.Quote:
Originally Posted by UV101
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/t...I/IMG_9984.jpg
Hi David
Got the detoxit wipes in the post this morning thank you!
I'll be using them as I unpack and set up in the new house next weekend so timing is perfect!
Cheers!
You are welcome.
Here is some info from Richard peachey (Vantage) regarding the earth tag position.
' The top right mounting screw does not make any contact with the ground return tracks on the main pcb and in fact the pad on the underside of the pcb stands isolated from any other track.. If other external power supply ground return connections have been made at this point, although they will read for continuity to ground, then the whole chassis ground plane will become the reference point and any extraneous interference sources will be introduced into the system (remember I mentioned there are high frequency signals floating around on the underside of the main pcb in close proximity to the chassis). It is entirely possible that if there were any contaminated surfaces (for example between pcb track / washer / screw) these could effectively form a type of junction enough to set up a circuit path with a very slight potential imbalance, enough to create a crude form of tuned circuit and create a source of interference which could result in additional noise injection into some of the reference signal paths '
opps i should have put this in 1st
' Regarding your mention of the "earth tag" I have just had a look at one forum and there does appear to be a lot of waffle being spouted about the grounding point inside the Technics SL-1200MK2. Remember not to confuse "earth" and "ground" as these can have significantly different meanings and functions depending upon the circuit and implementation.
Although the "earth" could be said to refer to the main power supply specifically before rectification (no need to mention "safety earth" here as the deck is built to ISO double-insulated specification) as far as the SL-1200MK2 model goes there is no "earth" point per se inside the chassis. The "ground" can be referred to as the common return path after rectification with respect to the B-plus line and any audio or reference signal return paths. Therefore to all intents and purposes inside the chassis only "ground" should be referred to.
The layout of the PCB has been very carefully laid out despite looking very haphazard at first glance. There are in fact well over 36 critical "ground" points in the main circuit. So messing with these and cutting the circuit tracks willy-nilly are not recommended! If you look very carefully at the PCB tracks you will notice there is in effect a "star" pattern to the ground return tracks - originating at the negative terminal point of C1 (TP4 is the main ground return reference point that should be used for all measurements).
The ground tag that seems to get mentioned a lot is in fact only taking a tap via a short black wire from the ground return track on the underside of the PCB (as the underside of the PCB has a protective conformal coating in place) to the serrated washer on the topside of the PCB and allow the PCB securing screw at that point to ensure a ground return point through the chassis stand-off for reasons other than just a common B-plus line grounding point (there are high frequency signals floating around on the circuit tracks on the underside of the PCB in close proximity to a nice big juicy flat area of the chassis so hence the need to ensure continuity of ground through this post).
Use the enlarged solder pad at the negative terminal point of C1 for any external "ground" return connections.
Hi Chris,
Most interesting.... I'm sure Richard knows what he's talking about :)
However, as we discussed on the phone, I have a very simple policy when evaluating changes to my system, or individual components within it (such as my T/T), and that is, after thorough evaluation, if it sounds better - then it *is* better.
Others and I here are experienced enough listeners to know when a genuine improvement has been made, or when any change has simply resulted in 'different', but not better, or indeed worse. I trust my ears and my experience to judge effectively in these matters.
In that respect, moving the earth tag, as outlined earlier in this thread (which I've now had soldered directly to the board, as per Mike's recommendation) and upgrading the DC cable from the SR5 PSU to the T/T with Kimber PJB, has resulted in a significant sonic improvement, as indeed has, for example, fitting Mike New's high precision bearing and platter - or indeed the Paul Hynes SR5 PSU.
I understand where Richard is coming from, and share his concerns in some respects, but I don't believe that any of the modifications recommended here on AoS by highly qualified and experienced professionals are in any way detrimental to the performance of the SL-1200/1210; indeed experience of implementing them clearly shows that they aren't. I also consider the prices asked for the various products being sold to be entirely reasonable, given the bespoke nature of their design and overall high standards of quality.
However, I respect Richard's experience with Technics T/Ts, and feel sure that we could all learn from him, although it would be nice if he participated in discussions and became a valued member of our community, rather than making critical remarks from afar via a third party, as a result of not properly knowing the people behind the modifications he's criticising.
Furthermore, I think Richard should hear one of the very heavily modified Techies, such as Martin's or my own, and compare it to one of his, to judge things for himself. Personally, I would be very interested in his opinion, and indeed would value it.
So to Richard, I say (presuming he's reading this): come out of the shadows and join us, and add your valuable experience to the discussions taking place here, where you will be made most welcome! :cool:
AoS is not like the other audio forums you so detest ;)
Marco.
I'd be really interested if anybody has or could make some recordings they can post. Same arm, cartridge, everything, EXCEPT stock vs. modded PSU. Sorry, I know it might be a big ask but always worth a try :)
Now I'm really confused. Should the ground lead from the Timestep be attached at bottom left, as recommended here by some, or top left, as recommended by Dave Cawley?
As its simply a screw holding it in place try both and see which sounds best?Quote:
Originally Posted by sonddek
Hi RichardQuote:
Originally Posted by sonddek
Richard looked over my deck and assured me the bottom left position is correct , so don't be alarmed ! The top right position can be a source of interference ,that's what he is saying :)
Bottom-left looks the better place when inspecting the PCB tracks and sounds better, so that's the one to use.
Where do all the so called "Technics" experts come from? One says top right, another says bottom left, I don't believe for a second that putting the earth tag on either will make a jot of difference to sound quality or should I re-phrase that to perceived sound quality as in the hi-fi world there are a lot of placebos.
I would make an educated guess that there are no more than 50 people in the UK with systems good enough to hear the differences moving that small wire will make, to the rest of us mere mortals it won't make a jot of difference will it, IMHO of course!
David - try it and see for yourself!
Hi David
I moved mine to the bottom left and to be honest i can't say for sure if its that much better , previously it was at top right for the last 2 years and no harm has come to my deck ! so the bottom line is if it sounds best to you then that's that .
The information Richard has provided is there for you to argue over if you wish , i moved mine to the bottom left after reading Paul and Martin's post anyway , and now Richard says the same bottom left is correct , what else is there to say .
David,Quote:
Originally Posted by Mains Cables R Us
I am afraid you are very wrong, which worries me.
I will state again, categorically, The focal, Zero-volt-return point for the PCB is the bottom left hand self-Tap screw point on the PCB. The other two locations have a square pad which is not connected to the common Zero Volt rail (PCB copper Track) on any of the many PCBs that I have examined. Further these two pads are surface varnished and therefore insulated.
If other people have connected the zero volt return lead of the Time Step; or any other power supply for that matter; to one of these incorrect terminals, then it is because they do not know what they are doing. or that they have been misinformed.
You will indeed get a 'working' zero volt return from the other two connection points. But as I have stated before this return connection will be via the metal of the chassis. which is not an ideal conductor. Why for goodness sake do people sell so called special cables if proper zero volt/earth connections are not recognized as being important!!! Further unless you have taken steps to remove the paint/varnish on the top of the mounting posts, then you will have an even less valid return path. Also the hardened self-tap screws are not designed for the maximum electrical conductivity!!!
It is accepted electronic engineering practice to ensure the integrety of zero-Volt return points and Earth connections in any piece of electronic equipment be it aerospace or a lowly lump of audio equipment.