New Solid Aluminium Platter for the SL1200

I do think that many of you are overcomplicating matters. I don't own a Technics any more, but it's clear to me that the structural integrity of the thing is relatively poor. The MN bearing compensates for that not only by the quality of the bearing itself, but also by dint of the solidity and strength that it imparts to the central part of the alloy chassis (think sideways forces and the weakness of the standard bearing). But, even with the MN bearing, some flex in the chassis and the platter remains. As you all know, minute (spurious) movements in any part of a record player are undesirable: the new alloy platter will have the solidity to eliminate the spurious movements/resonances etc that the standard platter most probably suffers from, since it's a flimsy thing.

So, that's the easy part, but what about the motor? You all seem to be hung up on motor torque, as though everyone needs to slip records like DJs - this is patently not the case. If it was, then Brinkmann would have taken a high-torque route with their new DD 'table, but they did not. What is needed is enough torque to maintain rotational velocity, irrespective of the dynamic loading presented by the stylus, bearing etc. So, does the extra mass of the MN platter upset the motor system? Probably not, but a quick tweak of the control circuitry should turn down the torque so that the motor is not unduly compensating for the extra mass and calm equilibrium is restored. That's unlikely. though, for the simple reason that Hamish tried to explain above - the platter will get up to speed and the motor will not have to work very hard to keep it going correctly. Dave Cawley is perfectly qualified to make motor control adjustments if necessary, as he does already with the Motor Dynamics Mod. As I understand things, any of the motor parameters can be adjusted if necessary.

Many of you are looking for problems where they most probably do not exist. I am not interested in either the Technics or the new platter, but I can see the engineering logic behind it - eg providing a completely stable mechanical system for playing records (if you conveniently ignore the Technics' chassis). That the humble Technics ends up costing the same as a Hyperspace is disturbing, but not ultimately relevant to the arguments presented here.

Now, my Kenwood KD-770D has the structural integrity that the Technics lacks, together with a relatively low torque motor and a quality high mass oversize platter - a bit like the Brinkmann! If the Technics can be coaxed into producing music to the same standard as my Kenwood, then it will be doing well!

Hi Hugo,

Good post, I'll get to it in more detail later :)

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Now, my Kenwood KD-770D has the structural integrity that the Technics lacks, together with a relatively low torque motor and a quality high mass oversize platter - a bit like the Brinkmann! If the Technics can be coaxed into producing music to the same standard as my Kenwood, then it will be doing well!

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So when do you fancy a shoot-out between our two decks? I'd like to hear the Kenwood that you speak so highly of.

I also have a PR3 on loan at the moment, so the PSUs will be the same, and we have the same tonearm. It'll be dead easy swapping our respective cartridges onto each deck, using the same test system, so we should get a good handle on exactly what each T/T is doing on its own.......

This is too good a chance to miss! Shall we do it at mine or yours? :cool:

Marco.

However, just before I hit the sack, could you explain how your assertion here:

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So, does the extra mass of the MN platter upset the motor system? Probably not, but a quick tweak of the control circuitry should turn down the torque so that the motor is not unduly compensating for the extra mass and calm equilibrium is restored.

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...eliminates the validity of the statement Dale made here:

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During tests to determine final platter moment of inertia is has been shown that a heavier platter produced slower motor loop feedback control response to motor load demand whilst a lighter platter produced faster motor loop feedback control response to motor load demand

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And this, I find a most bizarre remark:

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That the humble Technics ends up costing the same as a Hyperspace is disturbing...

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Why is it disturbing? Surely all that matters is that both decks represent valid top-notch options for their respective users and don't cost a lunatic amount of money?

My own T/T was recently compared to a £6k VPI, even though it's cost me less than half of that amount so far. Should that also be considered as "disturbing", but in a somewhat different sense?

Personally, I consider it rather "disturbing" that a top-spec LP12 (with Keel subchassis, Trampolin base, Ekos SE arm, Akiva cartridge) now costs over £10k!!

Then on top of that you can add:

Radikal External Power supply - £2550.

(£4500 for the Klimax matching solid case version).

Urika on-board preamplifier (powered by Radikal) - £2300.

(£6200 for Klimax matching solid case version).

:mental: :mental:

*THAT* is what I call "disturbing"!!!

But each to his or her own, I guess ;)

Marco.

I still think there is a lot more to come from the 1210 Marco in terms of resolution and dynamics
I kind of think why not get something like a PHampton and put a really good cart it would take it several steps further

Hi John,

Undoubtedly, mate :)

It's by no means a finished project - things can always be improved.

Whether or not I'll go for the new platter remains to be seen, but I'd certainly look at improving the plinth in due course when suitable options become available, and then of course there's either the HE PSU, Paul Hynes PR5 or a bespoke Tube Distinctions PSU from Anthony to consider, not to mention the fitting of a Decca, SPU or EMT XSD-15 cartridge at some point - so lots to be done!

However, I think my deck is doing pretty well as it is comparing favourably with the £6k VPI you owned (considering it only has a Jelco arm and Denon cartridge on it), and of course the Garrard 401s, TD124s, SP10s, PL71s and such like I've put it against on many occasions, where it's more than held its own.

It'll be going up against a superb Kenwood L-07D (one of the best D/Ds ever made, and IMO superior to an SP10) and a rather nice Rubikon-fettled LP12 shortly, so no doubt that'll be another learning curve to add to my overall listening experiences :cool:

No, the fun and games, Techy-wise, are far from over! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco

I would like to point to Martin's deck, which has the motor dynamics mod, the only example that I have heard; and it does sound very good. As I understand things, that mod alters and settles down the PLL response and (significantly in my view) reduces the motor torque. It works and I'm surprised that Sound HiFi don't make more of it. The standard motor system's PLL is always a bit on "the ragged edge" - Dale may well be right about a slower motor feedback loop response with a heavier platter, in which case all is fine and dandy. If he is not correct, then the Motor Dynamics mod tailored to the effect of the extra mass would undoubtedly settle things down. All I'm saying is that the motor control system can be tweaked to compliment the MN platter if necessary: I don't know how change the loop filter characteristics but Sound HiFi certainly do.

As for the total cost, very nearly £2000 for a fully hot-rodded Technics (without an arm) does pitch it against established value opposition such as the Hyperspace which is only a few hundred more. Yes they are different beasts, catering for different tastes perhaps, but the comparison is valid in the sense that they both punch above their natural weight. I don't think that you can necessarily say the same for VPI or Linn.

Sometime we will arrange for a session. Music is not particularly on my mind this week, but I will arrange something.

What confuses me about all this concern for motor torque and response times and infinite values is this. People are demanding that Dave who sells my platters in the UK and Europe, produce detailed evidence of performance. I would have thought that maybe some might think that these figures should be provided by others.

If Anthony has concerns about ‘INFINITE” values then perhaps he may know enough to provide us with the mathematical equations governing same.

Hi Hugo,

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I would like to point to Martin's deck, which has the motor dynamics mod, the only example that I have heard; and it does sound very good. As I understand things, that mod alters and settles down the PLL response and (significantly in my view) reduces the motor torque. It works and I'm surprised that Sound HiFi don't make more of it.

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I've also heard Martin's deck; it's excellent and clearly suffers no ill effects from having had the motor dynamics mod fitted (whether or not though Martin had the opportunity to analyse its effect in isolation, I'm unsure), but it certainly is a valid modification option for the Technics in certain circumstances.

I say "certain circumstances" because when I spoke with Dave about having it done on my deck, he advised against it, purely because he didn't consider it being compatible with the 'high-mass' route I had chosen with the Jelco SA-750 and bigger counterweight balance, and the heavy headshell I was using along with the DL-103SA (and it tracking at 2.6g).

He felt that the effects of stylus drag may have been an issue if the torque on my T/T was lowered with the motor dynamics mod, so therefore this is something I would certainly have to consider very carefully should reducing the motor torque be necessary to successfully accommodate the new platter.

It also raises concerns on a wider issue about how successfully the motor and control circuitry will deal with the inclusion of a high-mass platter, because if stylus drag is liable to exist simply with having in use a high-mass tonearm/headshell and a cartridge operating at higher than normal VTF, with the lightweight stock platter, then how will it cope with the much greater demands in that respect of maintaining speed accuracy (and preventing stylus drag) with a high-mass platter, when the motor torque has been reduced accordingly to facilitate its use?

I'd suggest that some people ponder that one quite carefully.....................

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Dale may well be right about a slower motor feedback loop response with a heavier platter, in which case all is fine and dandy.

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At the moment I suspect he is right, and the only thing which will change my mind is when I see undisputable evidence to the contrary in the form of relevant test measurements.

Dave's a self-confessed measurements freak (and very good at what he does), so now is the time to show what his multitude of test equipment is capable of and produce some objective data to confirm the efficacy of the new high-mass platter. He could start with carrying out some wow & flutter measurements of the motor unit before and after the heavier platter is used, and then submit them for our perusal.

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As for the total cost, very nearly £2000 for a fully hot-rodded Technics (without an arm) does pitch it against established value opposition such as the Hyperspace which is only a few hundred more. Yes they are different beasts, catering for different tastes perhaps, but the comparison is valid in the sense that they both punch above their natural weight. I don't think that you can necessarily say the same for VPI or Linn.

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No, but the fact that a £2k T/T (or thereabouts) is able to compete with a £6k one, or perhaps more, undoubtedly says something about the modified SL-1200/1210's SPPV, not to mention how much one pays for a 'desirable badge' in the hi-end T/T market! ;)

I think you'll agree though that your use of the word "disturbing" was somewhat melodramatic.

I agree with you regarding the Hyperspace, but then I've never directly compared one to a fully modified Technics, so I've no idea what the result would be in terms of which is better, sonically. Therefore it's impossible to come to a decision as to which one would offer the highest SPPV, so at the moment such comparisons are somewhat moot.

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Sometime we will arrange for a session.

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That would be great, as I'd love to hear what the Kenwood does in comparison with my deck, so I can relate to your eulogising it here.

I'm not 'precious' about my stuff and don't seek to remain within a comfort zone, so I enjoy submitting the equipment I use to scrutiny against other good gear because it's the only way you really know if what you've got is genuinely good, or if you're just kidding yourself on........... Present company excluded, there are plenty of people on forums guilty of doing precisely that! ;)

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Music is not particularly on my mind this week, but I will arrange something.

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I fully understand, mate. Just PM me when you're up for it :cool:

Marco.

Hi Mike,

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What confuses me about all this concern for motor torque and response times and infinite values is this. People are demanding that Dave who sells my platters in the UK and Europe, produce detailed evidence of performance. I would have thought that maybe some might think that these figures should be provided by others.

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Why exactly? Dave's the engineer and the one with all the relevant test equipment, and so therefore best placed to supply the necessary evidence with which to prove the merits of this modification, certainly from a technical point of view.

Normally when a manufacturer designs a new product some rationale is provided to explain its efficacy. They don't just say: 'here it is, folks, I think it's great, and I don't have to justify myself'. Where would that get us?

When you put a new product for sale onto the marketplace, then quite naturally it will be subjected to scrutiny, which is where forums such as AOS come in. Or do you have some other view?

This is not about scoring points, Mike; it's about putting into the public domain information which helps potential buyers of the new platter to come to an informed decision. Surely that can only be a good thing? :)

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If Anthony has concerns about ‘INFINITE” values then perhaps he may know enough to provide us with the mathematical equations governing same.

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I'm sure Anthony will be along later to add his thoughts.

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

I've also heard Martin's deck; it's excellent and clearly suffers no ill effects from having had the motor dynamics mod fitted (whether or not though Martin had the opportunity to analyse its effect in isolation, I'm unsure), but it certainly is a valid modification option for the Technics in certain circumstances.

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Unfortunately not, I ordered the deck with the mod installed. All I will say is that it has no problems unearthing 'uber' bass, as Dave calls it, and is extremely pitch stable.

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It also raises concerns on a wider issue about how successfully the motor and control circuitry will deal with the inclusion of a high-mass platter, because if stylus drag is liable to exist simply with having in use a high-mass tonearm/headshell and a cartridge operating at higher than normal VTF, with the lightweight stock platter, then how will it cope with the much greater demands in that respect of maintaining speed accuracy with a high-mass platter, when the motor torque has been reduced accordingly to facilitate its use?

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This is interesting. If one assumes that in steady-state mode with no groove modulation the Technics can maintain correct speed (i.e. it compensates for stylus drag in the groove), then one can visualise modulation as transient additional drag. Since the inertia of a heavy platter is higher then that transient will have less slow-down effect than with a standard platter. Of course, the motor has more work to do to bring the heavy platter back up to speed but it's from a smaller error.

As the motor control is a closed loop analogue circuit, the compensation in reality is continuous and tiny. Like everyone, I want to hear the MN platter for myself but, based on my 'medium weight' current setup using the Copper mat, I can say that the sound quality is better than with the original platter in every way: pitch stability, dynamic swing and tonal neutrality.

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Originally Posted by Mike_New

What confuses me about all this concern for motor torque and response times and infinite values is this. People are demanding that Dave who sells my platters in the UK and Europe, produce detailed evidence of performance. I would have thought that maybe some might think that these figures should be provided by others.

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If Anthony has concerns about ‘INFINITE” values then perhaps he may know enough to provide us with the mathematical equations governing same.

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hi mike,
there are people here who are much more qualified than me to offer such information yourself and dave included, and i suspect that will be the case at some point when the platter becomes available to the genral public, please dont confuse me with someone who may have a vested interest in condemning you, dave, or any of the mods for the 1210 offered by you both, as stated when i first started contributing to this thread my concerns are genuine and IMHO all it would take to put minds at rest is some comparisons by yourselves on the before and after to show improvements or drawbacks, surely you can see that this would be the best opportunity to advertise and promote the new platter and therefore convince the good people here that it's the right way to go?
if my input here as a bystander is causing discomfort to either yourself or dave i will understand and will therefore contribute no more to this thread.
regards,anthony,TD...

Hi Martin,

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Unfortunately not, I ordered the deck with the mod installed. All I will say is that it has no problems unearthing 'uber' bass, as Dave calls it, and is extremely pitch stable.

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Having heard your deck, I can't argue with that. As you know, of course, mine does the same by using a slightly different approach.

I suspect that the motor dynamics mod is undoubtedly meritorious for people using 'normal' tonearms/headshells and cartridges. However, now you've got the copper mat and Dynavector fitted, you may wish to revisit things and ask Dave to return the torque of your T/T to normal, and compare the sonic effect both ways. I'd be interested to know the outcome.

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As the motor control is a closed loop analogue circuit, the compensation in reality is continuous and tiny.

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Perhaps, but the question is - is it enough to cause pitch and timing issues not immediately detectable by our ears in the short term, but manifesting itself in the long term in a way that’s detrimental to our enjoyment of the music reproduced - and worse, perhaps also causing long-term damage to the motor?

For me, this is not something with which I'm willing to speculate £650, without first the provision of measurable evidence which allays my concerns.

I think the problem is I feel that the electrical element of the circuit is not being considered enough in conjunction with the mechanical. Now whilst many turntables are largely mechanical, the Technics does, by design, have a significant electrical component, therefore I suspect that some more consideration in that area is needed before we'll get to the root of whether or not the new high-mass platter solves more problems than it creates......

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Like everyone, I want to hear the MN platter for myself....

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So are you going to be the guinea pig? This is what we all want to know, dude! :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

<shrink>
I'm still suffering from the cost of the Dynavector! I'll think about it...

Hi Anthony,

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IMHO all it would take to put minds at rest is some comparisons by yourselves on the before and after to show improvements or drawbacks, surely you can see that this would be the best opportunity to advertise and promote the new platter and therefore convince the good people here that it's the right way to go?

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Indeed! And the fact that certain key people are being rather reticent in that respect does not help matters, but hey ho, we will soldier on regardless..... :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by MartinT

<shrink>
I'm still suffering from the cost of the Dynavector! I'll think about it...

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Hahahahaha..... :lol: And don't forget your tyres!

Hey, someone's gotta do it or how else are we gonna know what it does in the short term, sonically? Do you want to go halfers on one, then? ;)

Then we can arrange a sesh and whoever likes it the most on his deck can keep it and give the other person their money back to order one later, or not, as the case may be...... :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

And don't forget your tyres!

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I almost had and now you've reminded me :(
Not to mention Roger Waters tickets for next year on top of F1 and Paul McCartney this year...

Ah well, you only live once.

I need to get summer out of the way (the cost of a holiday and paving my garden patio are looming) and will then review my funds.

No worries, matey - I have similar demands in that respect, so I suspect that this may be a winter project for us to do :)

Hey, at least it'll give Dave plenty of time to fine-tune things and optimise the results! ;)

Marco.

Just got this from Dave

And this one

LOL - love it! And how does it sound then, Chris? Spill! Are you using it with the HE PSU?

Oh, and is it on trial or have you paid for it? :) ;)

If it's the latter then Dave must now be completely satisfied with the results if he's selling them to people......

Marco.

166 post around a subject based in reality on a fall out between two people... i might not be the most intelegent person here, nor am i that great at expressing my self through text... but one thing i do have his emotional intelegence and it suprises me that the following is not blindingly obvious -

this forum is like a house
marcos house if you will
we are all welcomed in to marcos house with a smile
many of us have got a great deal out of chatting to marco and other folk in marcos house
dave was once welcome in marcos house
dave never really fit in to well
he had his views but never really felt he could express them too well
marco made a request of dave that dave didnt like
dave said no
marco said yes
dave said NO!
marco said sod ya then get out of my house
dave said fine sod you
hamish and a few other people tried to help
hamish and a few others banged thier heads against the walls
dave said let me back in in 2 days or i wont post again
dave was not let in in 2 days
a week later a breakthough
dave and marco finaly speak
dave says he might post again
this thread is started
dave isnt happy about posting as he is still testing his product
marco gets pissed of with dave for not posting
dave says well sod him then im not posting again
more people get involved
dave doesnt feel he needs to justify him self
marco thinks he should
dave doesnt care
then marco says whatever i dont care either
some time later the thread is reignited
marco still demands dave post
dave doesnt post
dave doesnt care that marco wants him to post
dave doesnt feel he needs this forums aproval of his products
that winds up marco
marco makes comments on the forum that wind up dave
the situation is made worse
that winds up marco
marco makes comments on the forum that wind up dave
the situation is made worse
that winds up marco
marco makes comments on the forum that wind up dave
the situation is made worse

thats about the jist of it ... its a situation that is now unlikely to change...
by all means discus daves products like any other ... speculation is indeed part of this hobby... but goading a previous member to post when he does not want to is not... and i repeat NOT going to get you anywhere

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Originally Posted by Marco

LOL - love it! And how does it sound then, Chris? Spill! Are you using it with the HE PSU?

Oh, and is it on trial or have you paid for it? :) ;)

If it's the latter then Dave must now be completely satisfied with the results if he's selling them to people......

Marco.

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its just a photo of it not at chris's house

as a side note my good mate joe who is here today says "dont you know there is a world cup?!" ;)

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its just a photo of it not at chris's house

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Haha....:doh: :lol:

Well, when Chris wrote:

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Just got this from Dave...

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It came across as if he'd just got the new platter delivered, particularly as Martin and I were discussing who was going to buy one first!

And yes, I'll be watching the World Cup later :)

Marco.

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by all means discus daves products like any other ... speculation is indeed part of this hobby... but goading a previous member to post when he does not want to is not... and i repeat NOT going to get you anywhere

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Hamish, it's got nothing to do with "goading" him to post - he can do what he wants. I'm past caring. I'm just making a valid observation (as was Anthony), as indeed we're entitled to do.

The fact is, if I feel it's pertinent to make that point during the discussion, then I'll make it.

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but goading a previous member to post when he does not want to is not... and i repeat NOT going to get you anywhere

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And you moaning about me mentioning it is not, I repeat NOT going to get you anywhere either! :eyebrows: ;)

So................... Let's not have any more posts like #171, please (although your summary therein was reasonably accurate). All I would say is that with regard to this:

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dave doesnt feel he needs this forums aproval of his products
that winds up marco

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...that's simply not the case. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with AOS 'approving' Dave's products. That's for individuals to decide for themselves. It's about his customers here who are considering buying a new platter being sufficiently informed of its expected efficacy in order for them to decide to buy one or not, unless he's planning on sending out test samples for evaluation purposes to potential customers first. I think not.

Quite simply, if Dave didn't want to be questioned about the new platter, then he should've kept it quiet until the design (and how it works in conjunction with the control circuitry/motor of the SL-1200) was finalised. Once you mention something interesting, people quite naturally want to know more.

At the moment such information is next to non-existent, particularly with regard to the concerns that people have raised on this thread.

In my view there is no excuse for this, and the fact that he patently doesn't care what people think, I consider as rather arrogant and unhelpful, not to mention a slap in the face to those of us who've supported his business financially and otherwise since he became a member here.

*That*, muchacho, is what "winds up Marco"!

Anyway, if you see me mentioning Mr Cawley's lack of contribution to this discussion again in future, for whatever reason, just ignore it :)

Marco.

Righto
just puttin the facts out there ... Since this thread is requesting facts i felt it pertinent to point some of them out ;)

No problemo - time for lunch now, me thinks! http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1...racter0104.gif

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1...smileys789.gif

Marco.

Marco, you remember what I said, and you said, and I replied...

At this moment in time, the platter doesn't exist in the market. Wanting answers NOW won't do any good, will it?

Sometimes the best way to deal with schoolboys exhibiting "behaviour" is to ignore them and that gets 'em really mad because they don't have an audience to strut in front of...

Hi Dave,

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At this moment in time, the platter doesn't exist in the market. Wanting answers NOW won't do any good, will it?

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We're not necessarily looking for "answers"; just some feedback or updates on developments and/or replies to concerns some customers of his have raised. I don't think that this is at all unreasonable.

It'll be interesting to see when the platter does exist on the market just how much information we receive with regard to the issues that have been discussed here........ ;)

Anyway, let's not dwell any further on this and return to discussing the product concerned :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Dalek Supreme D L

I did qualify what I said as "I could be wrong here", but without Tom is it still NA? Thanks for the clarification about NA still being in existence.

I like NA TTs :) One of those foundational analogue experiences for me, was a NA Mentor Reference in Vinyl Tube Audio (now sadly gone), many, years ago in Fortress Road London.


Regards D S D L

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Tom hasn't been with Nottingham Analogue for around 6 years or more and they continue without him.

As for ' is it still NA ?', you could ask exactly the same of Michell Engineering, SME, Spendor, Sugden, Quad etc, etc, all companies carrying on very nicely without their founder.

Meanwhile, Tom is making his own range of products and I should have something to show in a few weeks. What this will be, I have no idea at this time.

I above all would like to resolve all the concerns people have. Indeed the platter could be made less heavy, or more so if required!! Unfortunately I only have a Tektronix 475 scope and am not set up with all the measuring equipment needed to produce the measurements required. David among others has. Perhaps in the future HFW will take on the challenge.

What I have done is to design and machine a totally new platter which I know has illiminated most of the shortcomings inherent in the existing one and which all of you were looking foward to since the release of my High Precision bearing. I guess what we need now are some listening evaluations. I honestly do not believe that a large mass of electronic data and measurments is really going to mean a great deal to anyone, as the numbers will be to small to be meaningful or even to be accurately and concisely measured. As Tony has suggested any differences may be infinitely small and therefore below the mean noise threshold of the masuring device.

There is a particular user in the US who is using my platter with two copper mats plus center weight!! That make the total weight about 10Kg!!!!! and his initial response to me is very impressive, however it is not my position to pre-empt any comments he may post in the near future. He is probably taking his time over doing a series of subjective listening tests.

In order to resolve this impass I have suggested to Dave that he provide the platter to someone like Martin or Chris or Marco so that real listening tests can be conducted, perhaps using a series of specificly chosen records from Jazz, vocal, through to classics and in particular Piano.

I can undestand the concerns of all, the platter is not an inexpensive addition to the SL. However Dave and I are looking at ways to get the price down.

Mike
I think this would really help those who are interested in your platter

Hi Mike,

Your kind gesture is very much appreciated and this now drastically changes the situation for the better! :)

The problem has never been with you, as you show the right kind of attitude and I've always found you very forthcoming and helpful.

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In order to resolve this impass I have suggested to Dave that he provide the platter to someone like Martin or Chris or Marco so that real listening tests can be conducted, perhaps using a series of specificly chosen records from Jazz, vocal, through to classics and in particular Piano.

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Dave should be thanked here, too. Look, this has always been about people interested in buying the platter being given as much information about how it works (and sounds) as possible - there is no other agenda!

So let's move things on positively now so we can all benefit. Let's face it, realistically, no-one's going to shell out £650 for a completely unknown quantity, so if you guys (Dave and you) want to sell platters, then lending out a test sample to potential buyers is the only way forward.

I'd still like to see Dave produce some sort of meaningful test results, if possible, as I suggested earlier, to back-up our subjective observations.

However in the meantime, what I'd suggest is that he sends a platter and an HE PSU to Martin, with full instructions on how to fit the former, and providing Martin is ok with this, we have a bake-off at his place to listen to the platter/HE PSU and carry out some comparisons, and that Chris and me (and also Hamish?) attend. We can thrash a date out between us that's mutually convenient and then report the results later on the forum.

Is everyone involved agreeable with this? :cool:

Marco.

erm ... yeah... not sure of the likely hood of

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he sends a platter and an HE PSU to Martin

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at your suggestion to be honest marco... perhaps you should wait for someone to buy one when dave and mike are ready for general release and have published some of there findings.... ....

Hamish,

Mike's already said that Dave will send one of us a platter (unless Dave refuses Mike's suggestion, which I'd like to think won't be the case):

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In order to resolve this impass I have suggested to Dave that he provide the platter to someone like Martin or Chris or Marco...

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:)

So I thought Dave (when he's happy with it) could also send an HE PSU for evaluation, along with the platter, as the latter apparently won't perform optimally without the former........

Anyway, let's see what happens. I just wanted to thank Mike for his gesture and see if Martin was ok for a bake-off at his when all the bits are in place :cool:

Marco.

Hmmm... I'm not sure some parties involved are being put in entierly comfortable positions by this marco.
If I were in your shoes I would concider bowing out of all of this at least for the time being. Mike might have suggested that dave send out a platter to someone... But let's face it the chance of that someone being you, or indeed being conected to you in the way you propose, is IMHO small.
I think your involment in any bakeoff is likely to put others involved in an uncomfortable situation concidering the circumstances.
I know you are interested in the platter and it's merits or otherwise, but it might be wise concidering your relationship with dave as it stands if you sit this one out... Just an observation of course... And I hope you can take it for it's good intentions!

Hamish,

Let's just see what happens. Mike's obviously mentioned it to Dave, otherwise he wouldn't have posted to that effect here.

Sorry, there's no way I'm 'bowing out' of anything, and nor should I be expected to! I'm shocked that you should even suggest that. Dave can do what he wants, and I'll do the same.

Now I appreciate your advice, mate, but it's not helping matters, so please, unless you have something to add regarding the proposed sonic effect of the platter, or anything else in relation to that, leave it there.

Mike,

Keep us posted on the platter loan sample situation :)

Marco.

Hmmm.... I shall leave it there marco, but it is only honest well meaning advice I offer!
I have no motives other than to try and keep a level of peace!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hamish

Hmmm.... I shall leave it there marco

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A wise choice ;)

Quote:

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I shall leave it there marco, but it is only honest well meaning advice I offer!
I have no motives other than to try and keep a level of peace!

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Thanks. Yes I know, but no disrespect, I don't need a personal advisor, so please no more pearls of wisdom.

Let's just see how the situation develops. Mike's obviously trying to help, so let's see what he comes up with :)

Marco.

Hmmm....

Hamish,

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the main core of Techie Tweakers in the UK tend to post on here. Indeed, I doubt that David Price would have been quite as interested financially (on his own turntable) without the likes of Marco waxing so vociferously about how good this deck can become.

When one admires a piece of hifi gear as much as Marco does his Techie deck and has the finances available to purchase these upgrades and post after post on how wonderful they are, thus helping sales of these upgrades, then I honestly think that he should be allowed to field test it. The same with power supplies. The Paul Hynes derived supply looks to be a genuine alternative to the Timestep - why should one person have the monopoly on this? - and if it gives a good performance, then Timestep should be able to test it and either condemn it because of genuine measurable shortcomings, or praise it as another excellent alternative (and update the Timestep accordingly ;)).
FFS people, a happy and delighted Marco would bring in LOADS of extra online business - and I'm sure that if he was loaned a prototype, he would treat it as such and report accordingly.

I remember when Linn were about to launch some lower cost speakers. They were then caught between the soggy, over bloated sound of the LP12 of the period and the "correct" balance of CD (playing badly mastered material which was often too brightly lit in balance). They acquired samples of all the best selling lower-cost speakers (I saw them all at the factory and all the usual suspects were there from Heybrook, Misiion, Mordaunt Short etc.. and probably Royd as well) to find out what Joe-Public liked to buy. I can't say I liked the first issue Index speaker, but later ones were better and the Helix rather good..

I just wish ego's didn't get put out of joint so easily, as improving the Techie is an important issue, especially as the deck with most mods still fits in so well to a domestic setting (much as I greatly admire the Terminator Tonearm, I don't think many lady music-lovers would give it house room :lol:)

That's my lot on this. Good luck and I sincerely hope the platter brings about an improvement to the table and also at a lower cost if this can be achieved.

Hello DaveR,

From historical experience I would be disinclined to expect an unbiased power supply comparison from Timestep.

An independent assessment would be good.

Regards
Paul

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DSJR

Hamish,

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the main core of Techie Tweakers in the UK tend to post on here. Indeed, I doubt that David Price would have been quite as interested financially (on his own turntable) without the likes of Marco waxing so vociferously about how good this deck can become.

When one admires a piece of hifi gear as much as Marco does his Techie deck and has the finances available to purchase these upgrades and post after post on how wonderful they are, thus helping sales of these upgrades, then I honestly think that he should be allowed to field test it. The same with power supplies. The Paul Hynes derived supply looks to be a genuine alternative to the Timestep - why should one person have the monopoly on this? - and if it gives a good performance, then Timestep should be able to test it and either condemn it because of genuine measurable shortcomings, or praise it as another excellent alternative (and update the Timestep accordingly ;)).
FFS people, a happy and delighted Marco would bring in LOADS of extra online business - and I'm sure that if he was loaned a prototype, he would treat it as such and report accordingly.

I remember when Linn were about to launch some lower cost speakers. They were then caught between the soggy, over bloated sound of the LP12 of the period and the "correct" balance of CD (playing badly mastered material which was often too brightly lit in balance). They acquired samples of all the best selling lower-cost speakers (I saw them all at the factory and all the usual suspects were there from Heybrook, Misiion, Mordaunt Short etc.. and probably Royd as well) to find out what Joe-Public liked to buy. I can't say I liked the first issue Index speaker, but later ones were better and the Helix rather good..

I just wish ego's didn't get put out of joint so easily, as improving the Techie is an important issue, especially as the deck with most mods still fits in so well to a domestic setting (much as I greatly admire the Terminator Tonearm, I don't think many lady music-lovers would give it house room :lol:)

That's my lot on this. Good luck and I sincerely hope the platter brings about an improvement to the table and also at a lower cost if this can be achieved.

---

Superb stuff, Dave. You've hit the nail on the head. There's nothing I can really add to that, other than to say let's hope it sinks in, particularly the bit in bold, which I hope Dave hasn't forgotten :)

Marco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DSJR

Hamish,

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the main core of Techie Tweakers in the UK tend to post on here. Indeed, I doubt that David Price would have been quite as interested financially (on his own turntable) without the likes of Marco waxing so vociferously about how good this deck can become.

When one admires a piece of hifi gear as much as Marco does his Techie deck and has the finances available to purchase these upgrades and post after post on how wonderful they are, thus helping sales of these upgrades, then I honestly think that he should be allowed to field test it. The same with power supplies. The Paul Hynes derived supply looks to be a genuine alternative to the Timestep - why should one person have the monopoly on this? - and if it gives a good performance, then Timestep should be able to test it and either condemn it because of genuine measurable shortcomings, or praise it as another excellent alternative (and update the Timestep accordingly ;)).
FFS people, a happy and delighted Marco would bring in LOADS of extra online business - and I'm sure that if he was loaned a prototype, he would treat it as such and report accordingly.

---

im just trying to help avoid a situation the ferther exacerbates this 'situation'
... anyway ... im out of all this now, it none of my business anyway....

I think it's best to just go with the flow now, matey, and see what happens from here.......

Hopefully Mike will let us know more about his suggestion in due course :cool:

Marco.

There's a bargepole that I'm going to try to avoid touching for not touching this whole subject from now on I think...
I have bette things to concern my self with - namely lying on my sofa with the window wide open and the sun pouring in whilst listening to my hifi, drinking icy cold guinness and smoking - It's much more a pleasant thing to be doing than worrying my self unnessarily about who might or might not be getting pissed off with who ... Footballs on soon to and despite not being a fan a such, I am very much a fan of going to the pub with a shit load of my mates and drinking even more icy cold Guinness!

Yay, now that sounds like a plan - enjoy! :cool:

We're just about to barbecue a rack of lamb and open up some vino before watching the England game, which I predict they'll win 2-1 :cheers:

Marco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

Superb stuff, Dave. You've hit the nail on the head. There's nothing I can really add to that, other than to say let's hope it sinks in :)

Marco.

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I thought I'd gone too far and dealt with it accordingly. But thanks anyway :)

No worries. Just one thing before I go off and watch the football...

Quote:

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The Paul Hynes derived supply looks to be a genuine alternative to the Timestep

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Oh it most certainly is, trust me ;)

Quote:

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why should one person have the monopoly on this?

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They won't on AOS. Products are judged here solely on their sonic merit, value for money and reliability, regardless of who designs them. There is, and never will be, any favouritism!

That's simply the way it's got to be.

Marco.