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The very concept of 'rip-off hi-fi' is ridiculous. Hi-fi is a luxury item, nobody needs it to exist so nobody is obliged, or forced, to buy anything. If you think something is poor value for money, don't buy it - it's not difficult (works fine for me). If you believe that God has given you a mission to point out all wrongs (real or imagined) that exist in the tiny universe of hi-fi then A/ get a grip, B/ seek psychiatric advice.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by walpurgis
Yeah, but the business has shrunk further and the rise and rise of online sellers in the meantime has definitely changed the game I think.
One issue with SMALL online sellers is that those that change or 'update' their products regularly, may not be able to afford to keep backup service stock of components from previous versions. On the other hand, other makers maintain excellent reliability and a ready willingness to service/conserve older product when necessary.
Out here in France there is very little evidence of hi-fi at all. I haven't seen a proper dealer since we have been here. Our French neighbours look at our hi-fi as if it came from outer space. Like 99% of the population, they have a small Sony or the like, all in one unit with women's speakers. The supermarkets sell them. Even the bigger electrical retailers only stock Samsung black plastic stuff.
Obviously the is an industry here as the French produce some very expensive gear but its such a small market that they, like anyone else in the business need a healthy mark up to survive.
I agree that its nonsense to talk of rip off. If I think something is too expensive, I don't buy it. If I think an expensive item is justified in looks/performance, then I have to pay the market price of buy second hand - which is what I do.
Teufel (sorry to name them again) only sell on line but if I hadn't been offered the kit free, there is no way I would buy a pair of speakers without hearing them first. In theory, they reduce their prices accordingly. Same goes for any kit, money back guarantees or not. If I heard it at a dealer, thats where I would buy it - if I had the necessary asking price, otherwise I wouldn't buy it at all.
I remember the overheads I used to have when I was paying business rates etc. I don't know how anyone survives on the high street these days. The level of markup is no surprise to me.
Rip off - nope. If they survive, someone thinks its worth it.
Like a lot of folk have already said, if you think it is a rip off don't buy it. Nobody is forcing you. I myself have not bought anything from a Hi-Fi dealer since the early 90's. I buy on line and don't have a problem with that method. I consider myself reasonably experienced and can research to come to a conclusion. I would never go to a dealers and have a demo. This is an approach that has been strongly suggested by the Hi-Fi mags in my view which is in their interests but not mine.
Isn't the issue more about price discrepancies for the same item in the UK and elsewhere? Or for that matter, UK-made hi-fi which can be bought cheaper overseas, even after factoring in VAT, etc?Quote:
Originally Posted by YNWaN
Is buying a new car a rip-off, when it loses a huge chunk of its value as soon as you drive it away? If so, then the same applies to buying new hifi from a 'proper' dealer; if not, then not.
One problem is that of "new blood". If all the so-called high end HiFi is either found to be or even seen to be a rip-off then this discourages new entrants into the consumer space which in turn reduces the size of the market which in turn makes prices even higher as the manufacturing runs get even smaller. I'm not talking about stereo-typical spotty teenagers looking for something better than their phone to play music on - who will typically understand ebay et al - but instead later in the lifecycle, the employed consumer with some disposable income, the "John Lewis" shopper if you like.
Goose, golden egg, roasting tray.
Yes, this is what people should be looking into. If you look at prices in Japan, there are some real shocks, and not just when looking at Japanese products. I've seen British hi-fi so cheap over there that I would seriously consider booking a flight to Tokyo and spending some time there just to get some speakers posted back, if I had the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubber duck
Can it? I honestly don't know, you would have to give me specific examples I'm afraid. Stuff imported from abroad has long been subjectively poor value for money than in its home country - but it's still up to the buyer whether to fork out for it or not (I haven't). Value for money is ultimately in the pocket of the spender (as opposed to the eye of the beholder :)).Quote:
Originally Posted by rubber duck
What the OP was trying to weed out, I think, isn't so much the dealer (he states hopefully :)) but the distributer, who bought in cheap from Japan and now China (most often), added a good few hundred percent (quite often) before trade-pricing it to a retailer. Even now, how much or little do you think the spate of £300 - £400 active 'monitors' come into the UK for? I'm told around £60 to £75 and the dealer doesn't have a huge margin on them, which I understand is more in line with computer products than traditional 'High Fidelity' gear...
Back in 1975, a cassette deck selling typically for £120 would leave the factory for no more than £25. Dealer would buy it at around £85 to £90 back then if they bought in quantity.
No, I don't think so, as per the OP's posts 1 & 3 it is definitely the retailer (dealer), later moving onto the hifi industry as a whole and even the enthusiasts who are labelled sheep.Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
In response to the original topic I must say that I've never felt ripped off by the British hifi industry as there has always been ample choice of products and the competition that brings.
Retailers have overheads which nowadays are becoming unsustainable for the smaller outlets
Distributers are often necessary as a lot of manufacturers, particuarly the larger ones have no interest in a high volume of small value transactions and prefer to sell in bulk to someone who does. The distributor also has to cover warehousing and financing.
Direct sellers are not new, they just have a different (better) media in the internet and the numbers have increased.
However when buying I usually heed the following:
Be dubious of marketing claims untill empirically proven, always rely on your own judgement rather than that of others others and always be suspicious of the motives of those who have a vested interest in the gospel they are preaching. ;)
No
Is it the dealers or the manufactures who mark up excessively? Does it really cost as much to make an amp weighing around 15Kg as a car!! I believe the formula for hifi manufacture mark up is 5x the build cost. Economy of scale is often quoted as a reason but I think that is over stated.
I do have direct experience of how a dealer tried to over charge me for a piece of 2nd hand equipment he knew I was interested in.
It was a Dartzeel pre amp. He offered it to me at 16K, more than the original list price (15k), I declined. I obtained one elsewhere at half the sum he was asking. Some months later I saw the same amp on the same dealers web site for 6k less than he tried to sell it to me.
Like in any walk of life there are "canny" operators. You know the sort - antique dealers who intentionally dress in quality-but-fallen-on-hard-times clothing to garner sympathy, the farmer who complains loudly about a hard life while employing lawyers and accountants to maximise the grants and tax-breaks from government and of course the HiFi/car dealer who will always target the aspirational ego of customers in order to upgrade them to the next product, the higher margin product, the buy-it-now-before-they-put-the-price-up-again merchant. They are all stereotypes but I have met more than one of each in my years. They do exist and not just on TV.
One reason that China managed to undercut the rest of the world in many areas of manufacturing is because they did not have to do any proto type and R&D work. They received a sample to copy.Quote:
Originally Posted by tom
But the average company that needs to do R&D, proto type work, and get safety approvals, needs to include those costs in the price. It is not just a case of how much it costs to build something.
Far too many people complain about how much the HIFI industry makes on the sale of an item. But I don't hear those same complaints when it comes to cars or homes, even though the latter two are heavily overpriced in the UK.
Not just cars and houses. Designer clothes are twice the price here than in most places. Food is more expensive, generally. Compared to the U.S we are paying 25% to 100% more for pretty much everything. The 'Treasure Island' reputation has not gone away.
The perception of "rip-off" derives from an idea that conventional retail and its associated costs are not appropriate or legitimate, now there is an alternative of direct sales for many items. This is an inexpensive route to market, and attractive to those who are primarily price fixated and don't require advice or "touchy feely" or other aspects of the retail process. Others prefer differently. The idea that a product MUST be a function of its component cost is bonkers. Like everything else it is driven by market forces. If its too expensive - it won't sell. Final cost will be determined primarily by what the market will stand, and what viable legitimate alternatives are available at lower cost.
As Stan pointed out, R&D and product testing are elements, as are rep support and local distributor advertising, warranty support, distribution and stock holding costs. The OP has a modest market - primarily the home market through ebay, and a slightly wider audience through referral. If he wants to market in Singapore, he needs to hold stock there, advertise locally, register for local taxes, provide warranty support there. And the same applies to anyone from Singapore selling into the UK market. And they tend to chose and agent who speaks the language and knows the trading and tax laws, to do that for them. At a price.
If you want it cheap - build your own, or buy used product at way below viable modern manufacture and supply cost (except for cult items like LS35a's). There is a huge stock of excellent value real HiFi - it dominates a tiny market which is has decayed to a fraction of its former vibrant self - hence the withdrawal of Technics, Pioneer and others from what is now a fringe esoteric market. But don't knock those still trying to make a living by developing innovative new product for the remaining few enthusiasts, rather than a "one size fits all - lets rewire , use special components, or a different case" home builders selling via direct marketing.
Pricing will depend on volumes. In a tiny market, expected sales levels are tiny, and price will be high relative to component cost due to lack of demand, and associated R&D, administration, distribution and marketing costs.
If you think its too expensive, and can get better or equivalent cheaper elsewhere - don't buy it. Don't sit there whinging its a rip-off.
And don't expect to use shop facilities and then save 5% buying online and be welcomed into the mainstream retailer.
Hi Richard,
Whilst your points are valid, and in general I agree with the contents of your post, let’s not focus any further on the agenda of the OP (or anything about him), and concentrate instead solely on the nature of the thread topic and whether the question posed on the poll has any relevance now or not.
Cheers! :)
Marco.
Hi end is a market where it is often the case that the buyers don't really care or in fact enjoy the silly price tags. Otherwise as has been stated the prices in general in this country are OTT. In Germany a Merc used to cost half what it is here although we get all the gadgets built in whereas the Germans put them in themselves. Might not be that way now. A friend of mine used to go to the states and come back with a new wardrobe. He took over a load of crap and dumped it and filled up with polo shirts that cost 3 times here...immoral? Dunno, but he was a cop!
Yep I used to do that - save a couple of hundred easy. Plus you get American service: a gadgee goes all round the shop with you points out the stuff you are looking for, carries it around for you and then makes you a coffee whilst they ring it all through the till. Much better than their gum chewing, grunting UK equivelant.Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
Martin. A little truth is a dangerous thing. Because a set of golf clubs cost twice the price in the UK compared with the US - is it valid to conclude a rip-off? I think not. If it is - do us all a favour - source golf clubs in the US at an appropriate price, sell them over here, and do us a favour with US prices and make yourself a thriving business. Well maybe not you - but some enterprising soul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Or is there a Scottish referendum style conspiracy amongst suitable entrepreneurs to rip us all off and keep prices high out of spite? The sort of spite to their own face that means they throw away a good business opportunity to sell at half the price of other UK retailers, just to shit on the consumer by keeping prices high.
Surprised at this comment - most of yours display a more robust common sense.
I want a Maton Messiah EM100C guitar (its not price that's stopping me buying one - its a few self-imposed performance criteria, of the "your not having a new set of cricket whites when you can't catch a ball" variety). Last time I checked properly the only UK stockist actually stocking one was Guitar Village for £3450. Currently they have a pre-used one - I strongly suspect the one I auditioned and very nearly bought on impulse, and no new stock. Holland is the nearest stockist showing one in stock. The UK used one is £2450.
In Australia Haworths have new stock with a Hiscox case for 3299 ozzie dollars. That's £1832 at current spot exchange. plus £170 shipping = £2003 landed. Plus duty of £63 and VAT of £408 gives me a cost to my door for brand new of £2474. New for the price of an old one! What does that guitar I had shipped sound like? How is the action? State of fret dress? What do I do if it has a bent neck - as a manufacture fault not insured shipping damage? What if the bridge unglues after 10 months?
Rip off!
It's well known that the global companies charge more in the UK simply because they can. That has been going on since the 1980s. I'm surprised that you deny it happens. Levi jeans, for example, in the USA are about 25% of the price in the UK. Now if you want Levi jeans that is what you have to buy, there is no cheaper alternative and UK punters will pay the extra to have them. U.S punters won't.
As for importing the golf clubs from the U.S - once you add VAT and duty and cost of shipping your imported product is not going to be that much cheaper. But people do this already and make a living at it so not sure what your point is there.
:zzz:Yawn!
The important notes here though that may not be clear to all are that the global brands use the courts to stop you, as an "unauthorised" retailer from undercutting their selected local channels. This is collusion between brand and retailers at the expense of consumers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
On the second one, the missing ingredient here even if you are not sued by the manufacturer or rights holder is that you invariably only get a small discount if anything off retail from the source country and so obviously you don't look competitive. If you could buy at the same price as the foreign retailers and do the import with the additional taxes and shipping then prices would be competitive and you end up in being sued. Again.
Return to go.
Have I missed some key AOS protocol here? Am I required to post "YAWN" on every thread I find boring and of no interest, or is it acceptable just to carry on not bothering to read them.
I'd hate to be thought of as rude. :stalks:
During our visit to Florida in August, I noted that Levi 501s were $65 - $70 + their 6% sales tax.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Yeah, if folks find a particular thread boring, it’s best just to ignore it and move onto another thread that isn’t :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldpinkman
Marco.
I voted don't care because most of my HIFI is made up of Vintage and DIY gear :rolleyes:, so don't use dealers much but I think they are a lot better that they used to be as they have had to change with the times.
I would imagine that online is killing the industry
Alan
I personally think that everything above £5000 is a rip-off.
Not £4500? How did you arrive at that figure?
I tend to buy as I find. I wasn't particularly looking for my naim amp but was in a new dealer, I liked the amp well enough but bought probably more because I liked the dealer. But let us also be clear we are all focused on sound (art of sound like) and important home demos are for the majority of us, probably harder to arrange than buying online and testing at home.Quote:
Originally Posted by YNWaN
On the other hand I was in a well reviewed specialist dealer this week and wanted to look at top end headphones. The assistant didn't think They had the model I wanted in the cabinet that was beyond my sight and made no effort to tempt me with something else....the owner of the store witnessed this but just carried on his conversation with his mate about pink flloyd. Maybe it's because I am on crutches people make assumptions about how much disposal income I have (happened before went to a dealer for a pre-booked test drive and was greeted with motability is on Wednesdays sir - walked across the road and bought a car) or maybe the headphone guy was hungover but they lost a sale and a future customer ..I have noidea but overall I am increasingly happy researching online and then buying online....I usually like my choices and it can be done by comparing prices....furthermore i find you can sense good dealers by their websites and reviews then call and go visit and buy if they sound good. That's my two penneth and it's just market forces.
Are we being ripped off as a whole? I don't know there have been many reports on this and seems you need to look at how whole tax structures and competition in each market works it's not that simple.
Having had a skim through this lot, I don't feel I have the energy left to vote. :)
Just noticed this thread. I live in Plymouth, so the question is irrelevant.
Is there a vote....I was too busy ranting��Quote:
Originally Posted by walpurgis
Not if it’s a Tuesday.Quote:
Originally Posted by awkwardbydesign
Marco.
:stalks::stalks::stalks:Quote:
Originally Posted by tom
If that's the case, I'll have to "up" the price of my speakers to a 5 figure sum straight away...thanks for that ;):lol:
Manufacturers do not all use the same model. It depends entirely on (company) size, turnover, overheads, economies of scale, what the market can stand, what competitors charge, marketing costs, R&D costs, how many units it is anticipated will sell and a whole raft of other measures. I use a very simple formula (cost - plus hourly charge which is stepped depending on skill level of task) whilst others may use a doubling, trebling or whatever of build cost. You cannot compare one against the other without a hell of a lot of detail, as it'd be largely meaningless. The real test is simple. You ask yourself a few questions as a buyer:
- what is it I want
- Does this tick the right boxes (sound quality, appearance, finish, build quality)
- Can I afford it
- how does it stack up with the competition
If those boxes are ticked in the affirmative then pricing largely becomes irrelevant so the whole OP is up for grabs. At the end of the day it's a personal choice being made by grown ups, and providing they have their eyes wide open, few are likely to be ripped off. Are some things way more expensive than they should be? That depends on the "should" but of course, there's bound to be some.
There's other questions too: Just because something may be expensive doesn't mean it's any good. Just because something's inexpensive, doesn't mean it's not any good. Some amp manufacturers probably put more cost into their casework, switches and marketing than their internals (minus R&D costs), fact. Visuals sell, and good marketing sells.
One thing is for sure: The cost of PCB electronics has undoubtedly come down and manufacturing on a large scale has become cheaper but there will always be components that are labour intensive and expensive to build and one cannot simply judge them on cost alone. Two speaker cabinets may look the same, but the designs and materials may be different enough for one pair to have taken literally hours to assemble and one pair to take weeks to build from scratch. There may be sound reasons for one over the other but the average punter may not be aware of these. Similarly, decent power supplies and output transformers are not cheap, nor are fancy caps etc.
What it boils down to is whether you want to go the DIY route for best value (good luck with that unless you're confident or experienced) or whether you value the skills and products that are about that are undoubtedly expensive but worth it in the long run. Similarly, there are inexpensive components that may well be great value. Value is in the judgement and eye of the buyer.
Irrelevant is the question? - the answers a big grey thing with ears and a trunk?Quote:
Originally Posted by awkwardbydesign
That is appalling.Quote:
Originally Posted by naitphile
I would write a letter of complaint.
When in the audio retail trade I regularly had folks with mobility problems in the shop, I treated them no differently than anyone else, re giving as good service as I could. I once took all the furniture out of the demo room to facilitate a demo for a guy in a wheelchair. He was delighted with the demo, what I presented and made a purchase. It does my head in these sales guys/shop owners who feel entitled to be given money for zero effort.
I still believe the dealer model is the best one, re facilitating demo's and home loans,. and quality advice based on experience but increasingly crap service like you got means that all are being tarred with the same brush.
Regards Neil
Haven't read the whole thread (and I am not voting) but like many Hi-Fi areas it is difficult to come up with something conclusive because there are so many other variables influencing the one in question - in this case a rip-off. I suppose considering retail prices for the same item on The Continent and in The States could be interesting. If retail prices in the UK are higher then that is a starting point. I stress 'starting point' because maybe UK dealers offer (on average) a different level of service - worth a lot in my book; maybe there are different levels of duty or sales tax, or maybe standard (or legislative) warranties are different. Here in NZ retail prices are substantially more than almost anywhere else because of the shipping costs (also the extra time involved finding us on the map).
Its interesting comparing things in France and the UK.
In the UK, new stuff is fairly expensive but second hand is give away. Here, new is reasonable but second hand is fantastically expensive. The French think that there is still value in their old stuff and charge accordingly. There is the occasional bargain but usually its cheaper to buy in the UK and suffer the postage. A second hand Philips CD player which would go for pennies in the UK is up for over €60 here. Old all in one record players from the 50s get hundreds in spite of being crap. Collector's item they are not.
Now that eBay are doing the international bit, things might even out I suppose.
Theres a NEW Zealand now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei
Dementia's a terrible thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldpinkman
Getting back to the OP, Am I being ripped off by retailers? The answer is no, as I buy all my gear second hand or try and make it myself. When I do buy stuff new I tend to buy from retailers such as Paul Coupe, Nick Gorham and the like. To me chaps like these sell stunning products and deserve every penny they charge.
And this is why the UK audio industry has collapsed, as the once massive middle-market is now a used-gear one, with a few online manufacturers taking up a lot of the remaining slack. I think I can say this as practically all my own gear is now very old (1996 AVI preamp is the newest, the rest before 1990 pretty much).
Bought used have done for over 25 years. Not really interested if the industry has collapsed, I personally have no need for it..
Have you heard the one about the hifi nut so obsessed with direct sales as the only pure and true way to sell he thinks any retailer like tesco is corrupt and a rip off. So he gets his eggs direct from the local farm, his loo roll direct from the paper mill, and his comfort from his right hand :D
Two of the best domestic systems I have heard have been built by one man British bands.
Tom's RFC cabinet Tannoys and, ahem, mine built by Jon at Reality Audio to my spec.
Just looking at Jon's product, a super spec'd Apogee Duetta, and you know it isn't going to be normal, whether you personally like them or not.
Sooner or later I'll let someone hear them:)
Value for money? Well I'd like to see a sizeable producer manage to make a speaker at this level of performance for anything like the money.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3...97-no/DSC01272
:lolsign:Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldpinkman
Wot if he’s a left-handed ‘tosser’? :D
Marco.
You calling me left handed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Arf! :eyebrows:
Marco.