Croft Micro Basic?
Printable View
Croft Micro Basic?
Is my Croft enjoying his holiday round your house :D
OK for my two penn'orth here goes. We have two 1210s (got the second this week) we use them for dubbing vinyl direct to video and having finished the Composer-1 once I've done the GL78 I'll be doing our Techies soon. Bearing and power supplies first and then probably platters but maybe just mats. I'm looking at all the options the MN bearing is on my list and I want to audition it. To be honest I'll listen to everything I can, but I find this almost evangelical relentless plugging of all things Funk really off putting. It's a platter FFS not the Holy Grail, the tone arms are just that, not relics of a mediaeval saint. Mike, sorry but you have to take it on the chin, if you invent a better mouse trap, others will always try and improve it.
Best regards
:D
"Mike, sorry but you have to take it on the chin, if you invent a better mouse trap, others will always try and improve it."
I guess you are right, perhaps someone will put me up for an OBB for services to the SL experience.
…and for my two penn'orth:Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulStewart
Paul, thank you for your post. it is appreciated for this is not one sided. you think it’s off putting?
Have any of you, for a second, stopped to think what’s it like for me watching on the sidelines? – That really is all I’m doing, watching, trust me.
The number of times I could have jumped in but Marco knows I refuse to get involved when mud starts. I really regret all this ballyhoo. Correction. I HATE it. Oh well, what are door mats for?
This week has been very depressing and I do mean depressing – a certain sage member can attest to that but I won’t drag him in. (aren’t PMs great?)
I agree. It is just a platter and an arm and a bearing and… good as they may be (or not). The long and the short is that someone up there has given me a certain skill set. I either use it to make better product or sit at home kitting. One gives serious grief. Clue: It’s not pearl one, drop one.
Why do it? When I succeed, others enjoy things they didn’t previously have…and the buzz knowing that is pretty darned good.
After all my efforts you might still prefer something else (as stated by members) but at least you have a choice and that is a good thing…unless you want to go back to the good old days of “sell you speakers, divorce your granny but get an LP12”
Having said that, things there haven’t changed much there, either, only the names have changed…ah, plus ca change.:steam:
Bye.
Yes, when is the multi component shootout gonna take place?:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Al
Chill Arthur. Walk the dog. You know what they say - "Those that can do - those that can't talk about it"
Paul has a degree, and audio industry experience, and TWO technics SL1200's. If you got shot of 3 or 4 of yours you might wise up :lol:
Arthur - you old rascal - you've had me over again! That graph of your "non-tone arm" - you little tinker. HiFi World! You did it with a crayoning set!Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulStewart
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/...ps31c2d7c6.jpg
Paul knows you know. The Pip's no good either, and has been bettered by countless others Paul knows. I told Owen at the weekend and you can imagine how distraught he was. If it hadn't been for the storm damage to his house on Monday, he'd probably still be laughing now. I wonder if he realises Paul is in "pro-audio" and doubtless could do better than the AHB2 too. :doh:
Oh to have talent, and a few patents...;)
Hi Paul,Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulStewart
Nice chatting the other day, mate. We do have quite a lot in common, in terms of our audio proclivities, and it was fascinating hearing all about your involvement in the recording industry, within studios, and the knowledge you have gained from that (mucho respect) :cool:
With regard to the apparent 'Funk/PT mania' that exists (and here you are no doubt referring largely to Richard's input), I understand where you're coming from. He does become somewhat fixated at times with all things Funk, as indeed a glance at his posts to date here shows.
However... One could argue that Richard's Funk/PT 'obsession' is no greater than the (modified) Technics T/T 'obsession' which exists here, and so it would be rather hypocritical to criticise or exclude one without the other. The reality, of course, is that either 'obsession' is nothing of the sort and simply an expression of how passionate the respective fans are of recommending to others what they believe works :exactly:
In that respect, I would say that his passion for all things Funk/PT is justified.
Furthermore, as this thread is about a new platter being released for the Technics, from the Funk Firm, it would be somewhat churlish not to expect discussion related to that (and references to PT) appearing occasionally... In any case, I'm cool with it, and whilst I acknowledge your concerns, I hope that you can also see where I'm coming from :)
Marco.
LOL - it's already written in stone, mate! Let's not forget too, the role AoS has played (and continues to play) in that... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_New
Marco.
It would seem that two posters in particular are reading this thread and only seeing the negatives, which is somewhat disappointing. I refer the gentlemen concerned to one of my earlier posts http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...rs/page15:hmm: #143
Thanks Marco
I appreciate I go on about P*** T****** and F*** F*** a lot, but as you rightly point out we all tend to talk about what we know about and have experience of, and I lead a sheltered life. I have also recently posted about ligament strains, storm damage and the death of a friend of my stepsons, Morris Oxfords, Weatherspoons pubs, Dacs and power supplies, Firebottles lovely VALVE phono stage, and of course the usual Steadman bashing, and a few others I forget about.
I prefer enthusing (even a bit too much) to denigrating. I'll try to get out more :cool:
Hi Marco,
Two back in the eighties the New Yorker magazine ran a cartoon of two tramps sitting on a bench in central park looking at the bumper sticker of a car that said I heart NY and one says to the other "I dunno I LIKE New York". My problems not with the products, I'd like to hear them, it's the religious zeal with which PT/Funk is relentlessly punted. In the flat earth days, when I was first in the trade, with two far superior TTs to the LP12, ( a precursor of the 1200 as it happens) I expected to be burned at the stake for heresy :) I haven't felt that for years, until now :( Personal attacks on people you disagree with have no place on well run forums, I half expect the inquisition on my doorstep for the "Crime" of not thinking that the Pip is the hifi version of the Ark of the Covenant. :)
In my opinion there needs to be a lot less hyperbole and a lot more accuracy, FYI Richard I have a degree AND a doctorate, both in audio related fields and I never said the Pip was no good, I said I've heard ones I feel are better, each to their own.
Regards to all
It's no religious zeal. Marco has said many times that if something better comes along he will give it a fair listen, and I agree with that. It's hardly blinkered flat earthism that only allowed a few brands to exist.
The fact is that my combination of Mike New and Funk components has given me the best sound I've heard in my system, and one which approaches what I've heard from the Air Force and Continuum when I've heard them. I'm not saying 'equals' but then I've spent less than 10% of their entry ticket. If a significant improvement comes along that will fit my deck, I'll give it a try and report fairly on it, just as I've always done.
Hi Martin
My complaints of zealotry are not aimed at you in any way
Paul S
I hear you, Paul - and rest asssured that your comments have been noted. Let's move on now and get back on-topic :)
Marco.
Paul,
It would seem that maybe you would have the abillity and equipment to persue an experiment I have been
considering for some time now. There is always discussion on the type of mat to use (and platters for that matter)
My idea is this: to actually try to measure the amount of reflected/transmitted energy through the record material.
This could be done using a second arm running on a perfectly smooth surface, I have used a CD (recorded side) on my single SME V
and the surface noise is very low. I guess a piece of thin plate glass would be better. I know this is what we used to check the surfaceometers (which used a MM cartridge) when I worked at AWRE in the metrology section for a while. Now the second arm could be connected to the required electronics and a speaker, whilst the first arm is actually reading the track but not being output to a speaker. What do you think?
With some extra effort an annulus (annuli?) could be made so that various positions on the record could be measured.
This way even the effectiveness of centre weights and maybe bearings could be measured.
Effective sonic connection of the plain medium to the record could be a problem.
The ultimate perhaps would be a laser sensor.
PS: If you think this is off topic Marco then move it to another thread.
It's nice to see we've all decided to be civilised again in here.
The quality and precision workmanship in Mikes work speaks for itself and certainly doesn't require any shilling now that MCRU is distributing his products. I'd certainly be interested to see the results of a shootout between all the available platters as this may well prove to be my christmas pressie. :eyebrows:
The semantics of the language. I almost cringe when statements like that are made, not because I don't know what you're really getting at, Martin; but, because of how some folks quickly read a statement like that without tagging on, in their own minds, "...to me." In other words, failing to acknowledge personal preference in audio. It's that out with the old, in with the new, mentality. To actually say something sounds better, objectively, requires the only tools we have at our disposal: scientific measurement and a goal. Nevertheless, justifiably and again based on preference, measurements are rarely the deal breakers for audio loving folks.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
Is your Dynavector "better" than my "Trans-Fi"? It just depends on whether you or I are listening and what we are listening for. ;) I'm not singling you out, Martin, you know that. Moreover, this maybe for others out there, in general. The different platters, all of them, like cartridges, have different sounds. Not a one of them is "better" than any other, except as a preference of the listener/owner. In that respect, they are all equally as good as the other, including the stock platter.
Now, to Mike's point. Measuring the reflectivity of platters (and mats) back to the cantilever/stylus of a cartridge for specific frequencies (if it could be done in an agreed upon scientific way) would give us the plain facts about, indeed, how "dead" they are or how effective they are in "not offending" the music. I already know what the outcome would be; because, even if a platter was found to egregiously color parts of the audio band, those who prefer a particular combination would still continue to use it; as well they should if it suits them.
As an aside, out of curiosity, (Arthur), how will the sub and main platter be joined on the Mk. 2 version? Will the torque of the 1200 motor effect that join over time (start up / quick electronic braking especially with a 78 rpm mod)? Will the two platters "slip" if one tries to clean a record on the table with that setup? Perhaps, dumb questions; but, these are the things I think about. (I should get out more.) There are things that I, personally, take for granted because the Techy is such a tank. I've never owned a sub/main platter TT and reading about some TD 124s with warped platters and some Regas that "crest and trough" give me pause. I'm assuming the bottom of the main platter and top of the hub would have to be near perfectly flat and level. Just asking... ...I generally do a stupid amount of research before plunking down my coins. As I posted earlier, what are your thoughts on replacing the lettering that doesn't seem to be too popular with polishing the sides (less noticeable glue join) at the same cost?
Hi Biff,
I think Martin meant 'better' (to me), but omitted the latter. With the 'to me' bit in place, his statement is entirely accurate. Furthermore, in that context, the same also applies with him :)
Marco.
Perhaps, dumb questions; but, these are the things I think about. (I should get out more.) There are things that I, personally, take for granted because the Techy is such a tank. I've never owned a sub/main platter TT and reading about some TD 124s with warped platters: My observation there is that you quote specifically warping, as opposed to a default condition for any and all such designs.Quote:
Originally Posted by WOStantonCS100
if we look at Aristons, LP12 TD 150/160/125 et al. So, not something that comes to most people's mind over the past decades. As for "some Regas that "crest and trough"", again the same argument applies. Any component in production can be individually found to "fail" but as a general rule, all these designs have worked over time and any failures, ought to be regarded no differently than a transistor blowing up.
Finally on this point, and by contrast, and yes, I too should get out more, but in my long tenure of turntable designer, I have noted many, MANY warped single piece platters and never really gave ti much thought. Simply, production effects that are sorted by a good back-up department and then never thought about again.
I'm assuming the bottom of the main platter and top of the hub would have to be near perfectly flat and level. Naturally.
Just asking... ...I generally do a stupid amount of research before plunking down my coins. And, why shouldn't you?
As I posted earlier, what are your thoughts on replacing the lettering that doesn't seem to be too popular with polishing the sides (less noticeable glue join) at the same cost?
Whilst removal of the lettering is now a given, we are awaiting figurers from supplier, but back of a fag pack, I have been advised that the cost of polishing does not equate to removal of the lettering...
For the record: Our products are costed on a simple, "industry" formula of manufacturing cost to final price ratio, weighted as necessary by factors which include manufacturing rejects - you should see our reject pile of mats!! and so on. So, if our costs of polishing turn out to be less then the "estimated price quoted will be amended accordingly.
Arthur
That's a long one biff, which it wouldn't surprise me if arthur missed. I'll ask him to take a look. Your point about tastes, preferences and priorities is a good one - and evident among all of aos discussion. I think I may have reacted in a slightly prickly way to paul stewart because his first post about the products I use was addressed personally to me by name, and rather than express an opinion or different taste, told me in a manner I found patronising that other product WAS better (as an absolute).
Whilst our tastes in what we hear are the only sensible basis for choosing our hifi, measurements can help objectively confirm what we hear. I hope to get the plots of the headphone measurements we took last weekend soon, and publish them next to the auditioning comments i have already posted. They were quite interesting. (Somebody tell stephen fry!)
There are also some interesting thoughts about those tonearm plots and how mechanical measurements in what are part of a transducer affect what we hear, but this thread probably isn't the place to discuss them :)
I'm just wondering it the various designers of add on/replacement mats and platters for the 1210 haves done any measurement to see what effect the altered mass has on the compensation circuit?
I wonder where this idea originated from? :) PS I've sent you some links.
Yes, also my thoughts. The compensation circuit of the 1200/1210 does not implement fuzzy logic and does not factor in the rotating inertia of the platter; it assumes zero inertia and instant response, hence the very light standard platter with minimal peripheral mass.Quote:
Originally Posted by sq225917
________________
I had a look at Mike's website last night and I must say I was left a bit confused. He only lists one platter and that is an aluminium one with a copper mat bonded to it. However, I believe he also does a Delrin one and there is also a slide show picture on his site of one with metal inserts.
------------------
My own platter is in two parts and has an inner and outer element. The outer platter rests on a precision machined 1mm wide raised ring and absolutely zero slip exists, even when a record is cleaned. The whole idea of platter, or record, slip is a red herring.
For the sake of clarity: please accept that ALL statements by me imply the "to me" as a given. I don't make absolute statements unless I specifically mean to. Almost all contributions by members are opinion, but we don't need to keep stating the 'IMO' bit.
why be confused when you have no intention of buying a platter anyway? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by YNWaN
all you have done is potentially confuse would be purchasers of said platter!
to avoid said confusion here is the ETP platter
Mike's website only needs updating and considering he is a one man band I am sure he can be forgiven for prioritizing production ;)
That's one of the main reasons why, after conducting the comparison, I moved from using the high-mass MN platter (as good as it was in some ways) to the much lower mass (and I believe similar in weight to the stock item) Funk Firm [MK I] platter, particularly after hearing the (IMO detrimental) sonic effect a high-mass platter has on the efficacy of the internal circuitry of the T/T, as intended originally by Matsushita Electric/Panasonic.Quote:
Originally Posted by YNWaN
With the Funk (MK I) platter in place, music just seemed to sound 'right' (much more so than with the stock platter, which is a victim of its sub-optimal resonance characteristics and mechanical integrity), especially in terms of crucial aspects relating to timing accuracy, in a way that escaped the high-mass aluminium platter, which in comparison imparted a 'one-note' effect in the bass and an overall heavier and rather 'ponderous' sound, which to my ears was unnatural.
In that respect, I would also expect Mike's ETP platter to similarly excel, as I believe the design of the Technics suits the use of a lighter platter, although one can argue over the optimum material used for its construction. Consequently, with the new MKII Funk platter reputed as being heavier than the MK I, it is also one of the reservations I have about it, although as ever, the proof of the pudding will be in the listening! :)
Marco.
so why you never heard mikes etp platter chief, its been for sale for yonks?
£445 for the bearing and an astonishing £695 for the platter and no measurements have been done to demonstrate that any genuine improvement is on offer. I'm not saying they don't give a genuine improvement but at that level of expenditure there should be more than what we have here which is just the implementation of theory backed up with some subjective reviews. This is engineering, not magic and I think Mark is right to raise questions especially as he has a lot of practical experience in this area. This isn't in the trade section so my understanding is that difficult questions and dissenting opinions are acceptable. Or we can just keep on buying and trying different platters etc for the rest of our lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mains Cables R Us
Because no-one has sent me one yet to try! Do you want send me an ETP platter to audition and I'll give you my opinion of it? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mains Cables R Us
I discussed this already with Mike, earlier on the thread. The plan is for all three platters (Funk MK I and MKII, plus an MN ETP) to be at Martin's gaff, sometime before Christmas, where relevant comparisons will be made in his system, using both my T/T and his, and reported in full on the forum.
Marco.
Well, because I thought Mike (or someone) would clarify things - anyone looking at his website will not find the 'ETP Platter' (perhaps he will be updating it). You are right, I have no intention of buying a platter for the Technics (or a Technics deck), but I presume I'm still allowed to be interested?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mains Cables R Us
dude, who gives a shit what it measures like? you don't listen to music with a slide rule? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
what it sounds like is all that counts as far as I am concerned, mike has sold 250+ bearings, not one single complaint, I have sold about 20, again no complaints and no one sending it back, for £400+ if it was no good sonically there is no way I would keep it
in all honesty the human race has lost the ability to think for itself, we need to be told what to buy nowadays, look at trip advisor, years ago we just looked in the thomson brochure and booked, if the holiday was crap we did not go back to that hotel, nowadays we need to be told where to go on holiday!
its the same with hifi as it is with most items sold, cars, pc's, beds, whatever it is, we look to experts to advise us what to buy
if people bought hifi based on measurements hifiman would sell no headphones as they measure poorly but sound incredible!
you can do whatever you want dude, unless you are married then that's different :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by YNWaN
Yes, I know I can David - the question was rhetorical; but you still haven't clarified what platters are available. You sell his ETP platter, Mike doesn't list it but does list an aluminium and copper one. He also shows, but doesn't otherwise mention, a platter with inserts. The OP question was about what platter options are there - so what platter options does he do?
1/ Funk Mk1 = solid acrylic platter?
2/ Funk Mk2 = Achromat and glass laminate platter?
3/ Just put an Achromat on it
4/ Put an acrylic mat on it
5/ put a copper mat on it
6/ Mike New FTP platter
7/ Mike new aluminium and copper platter
8/ Something else he makes?
______________
There is absolutely nothing wrong with performing measurements. I'm not suggesting that one should be a slave to such measurements but they are a useful tool that should be utilised where possible. Platter speed accuracy and rotational constancy is one area that can be measured.
You don't do mechanical engineering without measurements. As for the headphones would a truer statement be 'they measure poorly but sound coloured (which some people will prefer)' ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mains Cables R Us
I appreciate no-one has sent a bearing back. That implies to me it is at least as good as the exisiting bearing at doing the job it is intended to do, but that is all I glean from it. After going to the trouble of fitting it you would only return it if it actually made things worse. I'd be surprised if it did not improve wow, flutter and noise, or at least one of those parameters. It's the fact that we don't know if it does or not because no-one has measured this when it should have been the first thing done before offering it up for sale.
I'm being controversial and a pain I the arse I know but these points should be raised even if most people will dismiss them with 'well it sounds good to me.'
An honest to goodness question Martin, if via a demonstration you heard for yourself the improvement the MN bearing can bring to a Techie would you still require a spec sheet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
I would welcome relevant measurements being produced, if anyone has the wherewithal to do it, as I'm confident that they would simply confirm what those of us who have upgraded to these products can clearly hear (and have clearly heard since day one of installing them)! ;)
Marco.
I now have the Funk Mk. II hub and platter and will be setting it up for listening tonight when I get home. When I relate my findings, everything I say will be 'IMO' ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
There is a mike new platter on my website Mark, its made from an engineering thermoplastic hence ETP, its for sale via the UK so no import duty, vat or parcelforce handling fee to pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by YNWaN
There is a copper version but I think Mike has stopped making it, he may advise better.
There is also the ETP platter with brass inserts which I do not list on my site "yet"
Hope that helps
P.S You can put the record straight onto the surface of Mike's platter or use a mat, I recommend the Oyaide BR-12
There is such thing as mechanical appreciation, which I've said before. You only have to hold the Technics and Mike New bearings in your hand, rotate them, feel the play, look at the housings and you KNOW the MN bearing is going to be better at its job. Listening to them only confirms that initial perception.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Cool - I look forward to it. Btw, have a look through your diary for which Saturday would suit in late November/early December, and we'll sort out a sesh. Hopefully, we'll also have an ETP platter to play with by then! :gig:Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
Marco.
In a back to back demo in my own system, 2 identical decks except for the bearing, if I heard a very noticeable improvement straight away then, no, I would not need a spec sheet. Even if it was in an unfamiliar system if the improvement was obvious then I would certainly buy one. You have to appreciate that there is no way I would attempt to fit this myself, which means carting the deck down to the pro shop, waiting a week or so for them to get round to it, collecting the deck, then trying to remember what the deck sounded like pre-modified, then finally, if I decided I didn't think it worth the money, reversing the whole process. Much easier just to look at the measurements.Quote:
Originally Posted by synsei
Having performed a bearing replacement myself (VA bearing) I can tell you with confidence that it is a doddle to do. If I can do it anyone can... :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Martin, I'm sure that if it came to it, there would be a few folk here on AoS (some perhaps not too far from you), with the necessary ability to fit an MN bearing for you to your T/T, so don't let that be a reason to stop you from upgrading your stock bearing :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
As they say: 'where there's a will, there's a way' ;)
Marco.
That indeed is the reality... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
Marco.
If an item is already doing 100% of the job it is required to do then engineering it some more is a waste of time and money. I'm not suggesting that is the case here but that is a principle that engineers operate on. So although I understand your point it is not a good enough reason alone to make me buy one. I seem to recall that Simon SQ did some measurements on his deck and an SL1200 so if he can do it I don't see what the big stumbling block is here. As I pointed out on another thread, measurements demonstrating the superiority of the replacement bearing would actually increase sales.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
No offence, but at £445 I would expect most people to return it if it didn't make for a significant improvement in percieved sound quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
It only takes a few minutes to swap bearings so why would someone part with that amount of cash if they find it offers no improvement?