Calling all SL-1200/1210 owners!

No worries, mate. That's what we're here for :)

The other unknown variable of course is what his valve MM stage is like. I've got no idea how it will compare to the one in my Croft, and so don't know what the combined effect will be of his MM stage and the A23 with your 103 Pro compared to what I get, and also with his MC head amp in the equation. If he's voiced his valve preamp and MC headamp together then this may be the best sounding combination.

I'll certainly be interested in your thoughts, so I expect a full write-up ;)

Let me know when you're ready to borrow the A23. I can let you have it for a week so you are able to conduct proper and meaningful tests.

Marco.

Cheers Marco. The pre is a simple design based on the kondo m7, and uses NOS Mullards like your Croft.

Ah, I wondered. I was going to ask you what valves it used.

Sounds good. I'm sure you'll have some interesting listening ahead :)

Keep me posted!

Marco.

Well looky here...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...1/IMG_2063.jpg

A certain very nice gentleman has lent me this bog-standard 1210 for a while, as I'd been harping on about wanting to find out how one would sound.

Just fitted my old (but still low-mileage) MC15 Super into it.

I get a sneaking feeling there's a rather fine (ok bloody good) turntable bubbling away here, below the surface ;)

And you'd be right to think that, Richard! :smoking:

The quality of the motor unit is phenomenal. Once the deck's little 'foibles' (as I have outlined previously) have been attended to you, quite simply, have a world class T/T on your hands.

Marco.

Wahey, good one Rich. Party at Gromit towers tonight! Enjoy.

:gig:

Just popped the Lyra into the Technics - blimey (in substitution for stronger words) it sounds good. :gig:

Obligatory porn shot...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...1/IMG_2069.jpg

How much would a 1210 be now if at kept in line with inflation/competition from when it was first introduced? Sure it's not as controlled as the NAS nor as 'big' sounding but it's given it more than just a slight fright. :)

Nice one, Richard. Superb pic! :smoking:

Quote:

---

Just popped the Lyra into the Technics - blimey (in substitution for stronger words) it sounds good.

---

Observe my earlier comments:

Quote:

---

Basically, an SL-1210 modified as described provides a neutral platform from which to hear the characteristics of your chosen cartridge and your favourite albums in all their glory. If the cartridge has a 'warm' sonic signature, that's what you'll hear, and conversely the same if the cartridge is forward sounding or whatever. Once the weaknesses of the standard deck are eradicated the deck itself has no sonic signature of its own and acts as an open window on to the recording. There is simply little sense of a stylus tracking a plastic groove or the 'bloom', 'thickness', or curtailing of dynamics that is often associated with vinyl when compared to CD - in fact the very opposite!

---

And at the moment you're using it in stock form with all its inherent limitations. How can the Lyra sound so good in a 'crap, mass-produced, DJ tonearm', for example? ;)

Quote:

---

How much would a 1210 be now if at kept in line with inflation/competition from when it was first introduced?

---

Well, the motor unit itself would cost many thousands of pounds for any British manufacturer to produce - that's providing they had the engineering know-how, tooling, and technological nous to make it in the first place! A company like SME could perhaps have a stab at it but I suspect not many others! The other parts (tonearm, operational ancillaries, PSU, etc) wouldn't cost much because Technics have refined mass production down to a fine art, but that doesn't mean the parts themselves aren't any good! Quite the opposite is true because they're engineered to an extremely high level of mechanical tolerance.

I guess that if a British manufacturer were able to produce a direct-drive mechanism of the same quality as the SL-1210, together with the ancillaries mentioned above it would sell for perhaps £5-6k, but in terms of sonic performance compared to what else is currently available on the market, when fully modified as I described earlier and fitted with a decent cartridge, I would comfortably put it in the £8-10k bracket, and even then it will still compete with some truly exotic designs at many times that price purely because of the fundamental excellence of its engineering. It's a very special T/T, Richard, the likes of which are simply no longer made.

Quote:

---

Sure it's not as controlled as the NAS nor as 'big' sounding but it's given it more than just a slight fright

---

I'm not surprised in the slightest. When fully modified I would expect it to completely outperform the NAS, which is an excellent T/T in its own right. Thus modified, the SL-1210 will be in a different league altogether.

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Well, the motor unit itself would cost many thousands of pounds for any British manufacturer to produce - that's providing they had the engineering know-how, tooling, and technological nous to make it in the first place! A company like SME could perhaps have a stab at it but I suspect not many others! The other parts (tonearm, operational ancillaries, PSU, etc) wouldn't cost much because Technics have refined mass production down to a fine art, but that doesn't mean the parts themselves aren't any good! Quite the opposite is true because they're engineered to an extremely high level of mechanical tolerance.

I guess that if a British manufacturer were able to produce a direct-drive mechanism of the same quality as the SL-1210, together with the ancillaries mentioned above it would sell for perhaps £5-6k, but in terms of sonic performance compared to what else is currently available on the market, when fully modified as I described earlier and fitted with a decent cartridge, I would comfortably put it in the £8-10k bracket, and even then it will still compete with some truly exotic designs at many times that price purely because of the fundamental excellence of its engineering. It's a very special T/T, Richard, the likes of which are simply no longer made.

---

Huh? :scratch:.... I must be missing the point somehow.

http://www.decks.co.uk/products/deck...nics/sl1210mk5

LOL. You're not missing the point, Mike.

I was referring to high quality direct-drive motor units and the standards of engineering seen in the likes of the SL-1210. Outside of companies such as SME, who have genuine engineering prowess, the vast majority of T/Ts produced these days, certainly in the 'affordable' sector of the market, are by companies who don't have the necessary tooling and expertise to engineer T/Ts to the standard of the SL-1210. They utilise other aspects of their design skills instead to make their products competitive.

As far as high quality direct-drive motor units are concerned, in the British market only Technics and Stanton have units for sale of the required standard. Others such as 'Numark', etc, are clones of either Technics or Stanton units and are not finished to the same standards of construction.

There is no hope in hell of any British turntable manufacturer producing a direct-drive T/T of the 1210's quality for £375!

Is that clearer now? :)

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

There is no hope in hell of any British T/T manufacturer producing a direct-drive T/T of the 1210's quality for £375!

Is that clearer now? :)

Marco.

---

Yes...... seen this?:

http://www.grandprixaudio.com/prod_monaco_turntable.php

:)

Yes, and it costs $19,500!!

Which is around £9.5k. I'm sure it sounds great, though. But that's the sort of money you have to pay to get the level of performance of the SL-1210 from a 'hi-end' T/T manufacturer. The reason the SL-1210 is so cheap to buy is because Technics have the resources to mass-produce them to a high standard at, frankly, ridiculous low cost to the consumer. It most certainly doesn't mean that they are 'cheap' T/Ts in terms of construction or performance. That's the fatal mistake many audiophiles and 'badge snobs' make when judging the SL-1210 as a 'serious' hi-fi T/T. They will often choose something else with a more desirable 'badge', often a belt-drive T/T, but which is fundamentally inferior.

I rest my case :)

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Yes, and it costs $19,500!!

Which is around £9.5k.

---

12K actually!.... You are forgetting the 'rip off Britain markup'! :(

Sounds fantastic apparently. Well, according to RG that is. ;)

Yep, you're right, but in *real* terms how much better will it be than a fully modified 1210 or a properly fettled and partnered SP10 in a decent plinth?

I'm sure it does sound fantastic, but on the basis of the above, is the cost of the Monaco deck justified?

Maximum sound-per-pound is where I'm at these days. If I was to drop £12k on a T/T it would have to be for much more than simply 'audiophile jewellery', and it would certainly need to be £10k better sounding than my (approx) £2k modified SL-1210!!

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Yep, you're right, but in *real* terms how much better will it be than a fully modified 1210 or a properly fettled and partnered SP10 in a decent plinth?

On that basis, is the cost of the Monaco deck justified?

---

How the bloody hell would I know! :confused:

It'll be a long long time till I have a spare twelve grand for a TT!!! :unfair:

Mate, when you get your deck up and running, and your phono stage built, any thoughts of lusting after £12k T/Ts will quickly evaporate! :trust:

Marco.

Hmmm.... maybe I should get the deck outa the box. :eyebrows:

It's still in there! :mental:

No you're waiting first for my 'imminent' review! :D

I've tackled a lot of it in my last few posts on the thread anyway.

Marco.

Marco cheers for linking into this topic. I am really looking forward to the review I am interested in your thought process on the modifcations, how they helped improve sound, a quick idea of cost and difficulty of modifications would be much appreicated as well.

Hi John,

To save a load of palaver on here, and me repeating stuff I've written already, PM me and I'll give you my number and we can have a chat :smoking:

Marco.

Cut 'n pasted from Wigwam as I did forget that Marco's the SL-1210 masta:

I have noticed some turntable rumble on my SL-1210... I guess this is one unwelcome introduction to vinyl! I have heard that rumble can often be cut into the record in the first place.

Still, even when a side of vinyl has finished playing & is still spinning, if I crank it up a bit I can see my woofers pumping (not ridiculously so). This really doesn't seem to be an issue at my playing volumes (in a second floor flat).

Does anyone use rumble filters, or could enlighten me to the cause?

I am presently using the MC card built-in to my Exposure 2010S, which I do notice hisses pretty loudly with a hint of woofer movement when vinyl's not spinning & volume is cranked right up (feedback?).

Hi Yom,

I've not experienced this before with my 1210, so I'm a little unsure what to advise. Like you say, it could be a feedback problem.

A few questions:

What do you sit your deck on - is it a proper equipment support or just a piece of ordinary furniture? Is the 'rumble' present during playback of the music or just when a side of vinyl has finished but is still spinning? And is there often excessive cone excursion when music is being played at moderate volume? Lastly, when was the last time you oiled the bearings on the motor?

Meanwhile perhaps some of the other 1210 users could offer their thoughts?

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Hi Yom,

I've not experienced this before with my 1210, so I'm a little unsure what to advise. Like you say, it could be a feedback problem.

A few questions:

What do you sit your deck on - is it a proper equipment support or just a piece of ordinary furniture? Is the 'rumble' present during playback of the music or just when a side of vinyl has finished but is still spinning? And is there often excessive cone excursion when music is being played at moderate volume? Lastly, when was the last time you oiled the bearings on the motor?

Meanwhile perhaps some of the other 1210 users could offer their thoughts?

Marco.

---

It sits on a massive wooden coffee table. Not optimal by any means I know!!!

The 'rumble' is present during playback, but it isn't a worrying amount, just clearly noticable when A/Bing between the same album in CD & vinyl.

Haven't oiled the bearing ever.

There's a small amount of cone movement (at reasonably high volume) when the vinyl's finished but still spinning.

I am guessing that the table is the root of the problem :P At my listening levels, it's really not a problem, but when I move out & get to crank it up, I think I should invest in a dedicated rack.

Yom,

I think you need to invest in a wall shelf - a Quadraspire one would be good.

Also, how long have you had your deck and how much use does it get?

If the answers are a long time and often, get those bloody bearings oiled, or one day you might find that your motor is no more! :(

That could well be the cause of your rumble...

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Mike,

Could you go to one of these:

http://www.audiocubes2.com/category/...b93456ce01d1d7

They are extraordinarily good for the money, and as good as anything up to £1000! It's the usual 'the best stuff goes to the non-UK market' scenario. The AT-33PTG is a veritable giant-killer, and it has the balance of sonic virtues you're looking for. It is also far better than an OC-9!

---

Marco,

I've taken your advice and ordered a 33PTG direct from Japan. It's currently in Lithuania (?!?) according to the 'tracker'.

If it's crap, it's all your fault and I will be popping round to insert a large garden gnome into you! (guess where I nicked that phrase from?).

:lolsign:

Cheers,
Mike.

Hi Mike,

Well done. I think I should avoid being 'gnomed' - you'll love it :)

Did you use Audiocubes or one of the Japanese Ebay sellers?

Marco.

Ordered from here:

http://www.joynetmall.com/shop/produ...roducts_id=506

:)

Looks fine, Mike. Let us know when it arrives :smoking:

You might have to get the deck out of its box, though, to fit it and set it up... Oh the bother-ation :lolsign:

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

You might have to get the deck out of its box, though, to fit it and set it up... Oh the bother-ation :lolsign:

Marco.

---

Oh bugger!

Err, I best get on with this phono stage too, ahem!

I've been dithering a bit till I decided what cartridge to use. Last weekend I got fed up of procrastinating and ordered the cartridge and a pair of WD step-up transformers and a few other bit n' piece's including a new Hadcock headshell. The plan is to find some appropriate SS tube and convert it to a 242, adds a bit more mass, see?

I've got this weekend (excluding tonight) with no on-call or 'other plans' to get in the way. Time to get cracking!

:)

Nice piccy of step-up tranny's.

Yum Yum. :)

http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/MCT1.jpg

I'm trying to get the SL120 out of it's box.

Jeez!..... anyone got a crane I can borrow? :please:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shian7

Marco,

I've taken your advice and ordered a 33PTG direct from Japan. It's currently in Lithuania (?!?) according to the 'tracker'.

If it's crap, it's all your fault and I will be popping round to insert a large garden gnome into you! (guess where I nicked that phrase from?).

:lolsign:

Cheers,
Mike.

---

Hmmm..... So much for the tracking information!

It is allegedly still in Lithuania. I say 'allegedly' because it's about a foot away from me as I type!

I'd best get my finger out with this phono stage, although I'm still waiting for the MC traffo's to show up.

:smoking:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shian7

Hmmm..... So much for the tracking information!

It is allegedly still in Lithuania. I say 'allegedly' because it's about a foot away from me as I type!

---

Still, that's better than having the tracking information say it's with you when it's really in Lithuania.:lolsign:

Damn right sir!!!


:)

Oh, there is another slight problem.

Being a 'Japan only' model the documentation is (of course) all in Japanese!

I haven't got a clue what sort of loading this thing likes! :confused:

It does, however, come with a few useful little extras, such as long and short mounting screws, a nice cleaning brush, screwdriver, and last but not least, a set of PCOCC headshell leads. Which is nice. :)

Cheers,
Mike.

Quote:

---

and last but not least, a set of PCOCC headshell leads.

---

Which are detachable and therefore bugger all use in your Hadcock :lol:

Never mind you can send them to me ;)

The following should be of use regarding your AT33PTG:

Quote:

---

Specifications:

Type: MC type
Playback frequency range: 15 - 50,000Hz
Output voltage: 0.5mV (1kHz and 5cm/sec.
Channel separation: 30dB (1kHz)
Output balance: 0.5dB (1kHz)
Stylus pressure: 1.6 - 2.0g (1.8g standard)
Coil impedance: 17 Ohms (1kHz)
Direct current resistance: 17 Ohms
Load resistance: 20 Ohms or more
Coil inductance: 70 mu H (1kHz)
Static compliance: 40×±0 - 6 cm/dyne
Dynamic compliance : 10×±0 - 6 cm/dyne (100Hz)
Needle tip form: Micro linear (ML)
Vertical tracking angle: 23?
External size: L26.5 × W 16.6 × H16mm
Mass (cartridge): 6.8g

---

I would go for 100ohms (the norm) and optimise it if necessary from there :)

Marco.

Thanks Marco,

I'd already unearthed that info though :)

20 ohms or more is a bit of use, but not that much!


Quite right about the headshell leads with the Haddock, but they'll come in handy sooner or later. ;)

No worries, mate. Like I said, go for 100ohms, which is 'standard' for an MC and tweak it from there. Flexibility is one of the benefits of going the D.I.Y route :smoking:

Marco.

Just got one of these on ebay - damn cheap.

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/pioneer/pl-71.shtml link to brochure.

Sad but I remember this beast early 70's. I lusted after one then but couldn't afford it, made do with a PL12AC (much better built than the PL12D). Top of the range of Pioneer t/t, considered by many the best technical expression of the DD until the 1980's Trio LC07D.

Beautifull construction and nearly twice as heavy as the Technics - steel base with real walnut top.

So now I have a 1210 and collecting this beast next week, though the 1210 is out on loan, so which one gets the work done on it is up for votes. But for looks this Pioneer is so beautifull and is built like a tank and beats the 1210 on that basis.

Looks great, Richard. Nice find :)

I (and I'm sure a few others) look forward to reading about your forthcoming escapades with it.

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Looks great, Richard. Nice find :)

I (and I'm sure a few others) look forward to reading about your forthcoming escapades with it.

Marco.

---

This thing is as rare as hens teeth in the UK (far more common stateside) and I was surprised to find it on ebay. To get it for the price I paid was a bigger surprise, only one person recognised it for what it is and the rest just thought it was one of yer run o' the mill cheapy DDs. It only got bid up to £9.99 with 30secs to go, but I was willing to go over £100 for it, got it for £68. The motor is bigger and stronger with more poles than the 1210 and the PSU is more advanced and complex and so needs less modding. Some cap changes mostly because of age then just regulators and some big fat high va torroid trannies. The only thing I am unsure about is the arm, but we will see when I get it.

Up there at least with the Microseiki and I think probably better, and Microseiki's are going at double 1210 prices when they come up at ebay. They are a lot rarer, but not as rare as this.

This is very interesting, espacially the EMT and the pro Pioneers.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/MISCEL.../SS1980TT.html

I want one

http://www.thevintageknob.org/PIONEER/P3/P3.html

The domestic version was PL70 which has much in common motor and construction wise with the PL71 I just bought. Wish I had that arm to play with though.

Help yourself:

http://www.hifido.com/KW/G0301/P0/A1...7468-21740-00/

;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shian7

Help yourself:

http://www.hifido.com/KW/G0301/P0/A1...7468-21740-00/

;)

---

Gulp! how much is that in clam shells.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

Gulp! how much is that in clam shells.

---

About 2 grand in our dosh.

Just got myself my very own 1210 this afternoon - a very clean Mk2. Let the tweaking/fiddling/wrecking/swearing begin. :gig:

Another NAS bites the dust eh!
Congrats Rich, No doubt you'll have a lot of fun fettling from scratch.
I wish I had bought a mk2 instead of 5 now. I like the look of the mirror chrome changable covers that are doing the rounds on ebay, for when you fancy a change like.
Just remains to see if you'll buck the tend and keep the faith with the stock arm - we watch with interest!

What did you make of the comparison to Ray's KAB 1210?

Nick - the comparison with Ray's KAB was a very interesting experience. Needless to say his rig sounds marvellous, especially on orchestral music, being musically intense and with bags of scale and colour. The Mk5G does also look da bollox. :)

The bias was perhaps tipped slightly in favour of the standard 1210 as it had the Lyra fitted as opposed to the DL304 in Ray's KAB - I'm a huge fan (as you know) of the 103 and its ilk but I'm not so much of the 304. Still, in the the KAB it did play very well and despite my slight reservation over the cartridge, the KAB was obviously better. Still, with the Dorian in the std deck it was still quite a shock how good it sounded.

Spent yesterday evening comparing 'my' 2 1210's - it's quite interesting how different they sound to eachother. I've used the exact same cartridge and mat in both, yet they still have slightly different characteristics. One is sprightlier but slightly coarse, the other is bigger, bolder but perhaps more musically 'measured'. This was a surprise in as much as I didn't expect two mass-produced turntables to sound that dissimilar. I am wondering if my 1210 isn't really run-in yet? The previous owner states it's only had a few hours' use in its 3 years of life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gromit

Nick - the comparison with Ray's KAB was a very interesting experience. Needless to say his rig sounds marvellous, especially on orchestral music, being musically intense and with bags of scale and colour. The Mk5G does also look da bollox. :)

The bias was perhaps tipped slightly in favour of the standard 1210 as it had the Lyra fitted as opposed to the DL304 in Ray's KAB - I'm a huge fan (as you know) of the 103 and its ilk but I'm not so much of the 304. Still, in the the KAB it did play very well and despite my slight reservation over the cartridge, the KAB was obviously better. Still, with the Dorian in the std deck it was still quite a shock how good it sounded.

Spent yesterday evening comparing 'my' 2 1210's - it's quite interesting how different they sound to eachother. I've used the exact same cartridge and mat in both, yet they still have slightly different characteristics. One is sprightlier but slightly coarse, the other is bigger, bolder but perhaps more musically 'measured'. This was a surprise in as much as I didn't expect two mass-produced turntables to sound that dissimilar. I am wondering if my 1210 isn't really run-in yet? The previous owner states it's only had a few hours' use in its 3 years of life.

---

Good to see you've taken the plunge Richard!

As I told you on the night, I was amazed at how good the stock 1210 was. I also agreed that the KAB sounded better, but the stock 1210 is an excellent platform for further tweakery.

With hindsight, I'm glad I bought the KAB because I know how little willpower I have. If I had bought the stock, I know that I would be having constant thoughts of upgrading in the back of my mind, and it probably would have detracted from my enjoyment of the music. With the fully modded KAB, there's nothing else I want to do with it - except spin more records.

Good luck with the journey Richard - keep us informed about how you get on!

Great stuff, Richard, and welcome to da 1210 club! :smoking:

I knew you'd end up getting one of your own, and you'll no doubt have lots of fun modifying it :)

I would suggest the first thing to do is ditch the stock rubber mat and buy an SDS Isoplatmat to damp the ringing in the platter and top it with a Herbie's or Achromat, then fit a decent headshell (I have a spare AT magnesium one you can have F.O.C if you like) and then get the arm rewired - this is essential to hear what the stock arm is capable of.

That should be enough to keep you going in the meantime. Let's see some pics of the beast in situ! :gig:

Marco.