I was most impressed how the Bushmaster turned the fused together bass tones on that Tracey Chapman album into individual bass notes. What's the title on that CD by the way?
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I was most impressed how the Bushmaster turned the fused together bass tones on that Tracey Chapman album into individual bass notes. What's the title on that CD by the way?
Crikey, Alex - you're still with us. :) 5 months since we've heard from you, but then I guess the announcement of Stan's new product is fairly momentous. Hope you are well. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by magiccarpetride
Yes, and I hope you're well too. Man, I can't wait to get my dirty, slimy, greedy hands on the Bushmaster. I hope I won't get bushwacked:eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_UK
And then, to top it all off, is it true what they say that an even better DAC is in the pipe from Stan, the one scheduled for this fall? The one without headphones out? That would be a dream come true!
The Album title is "Tracey Chapman", - self titled debut album (and still her best one to date). The first song ("Talkin' 'bout a revolution") blew me away through the Bushmaster. There were so many noises I've never heard before and with this DAC you could actually hear what instruments they were. Such great definition. I totally agree with you on the Bass notes too, - not the usual mush in the bass I've always heard before with this CD.Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB
I wish there had been time to go through most of my collection with this DAC!
Now I like to think that I like music as much as any man, and I've seen a fair few musicians live in front of me, but I haven't yet experienced any sensation of 'wetness' from such an experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin151
Either I'm doing something very, very wrong, or you guys have been smokin' them funny pills again.
Hi Alex - nice to see you back here again. Are your laurels away being dry cleaned & pressed?
Have you listened to the Naim DAC? One thing that hits you on the first listen is how the sound feels as if it's been washed down with a hose. Sort of like a gorgeous car that's finally been washed, and is now sitting in the driveway, all wet and sparkling. It's not that you see more details on the car, it's just that the familiar details and shapes now appear more gorgeous, more brilliant, now that all the dust and dirt has been removed.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
Good to find myself back in your fine and esteemed company, Grazoo. My laurels are all wrinkled now, so my semi-retirement is not as comfy as it used to be...Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
Ahhhhh, I get it now! ....................so you don't have to change your panties then?Quote:
Originally Posted by magiccarpetride
OK I got the "wetness" thing wrong then!:scratch:Quote:
Originally Posted by magiccarpetride
Sounds like the Naim DAC makes things clearer, more defined. The Bushmaster does that too but goes further, - really revealing stuff you simply never knew was there. I've not heard a component before that does this is such an outstanding way without sounding clinical.
I have a slight suspicion that Naim DAC is doing a bit of editorializing, interjecting some coloration that may not necessarily exist in the recording. While playing, that DAC may sacrifice some of the reckless precision you're talking about in order to favour a more sugar coated presentation. Not my cup of tea, I prefer what Caiman is doing to the signal, it's only that I got smitten by that 'freshly washed and waxed car' imagery. I'd love to have it on my system, and who knows, maybe Bushmaster will fit the bill?Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin151
I've also noticed some other ultra high end systems offering that 'wet' sound...
It would depend on how much of a car aficionado you are...Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
Seem like I misunderstood your meaning of a "wet" sound twice!, just as Wazoo did once.:eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by magiccarpetride
Hmmmm from what you are saying it sounds like the Naim injects some colouration into the sound. That's what a lot of Naim products do, - the amps do that too (paritucalrlly the older olive/chrome bumper ones), - they use EQ and bandwidth limitation to overemphaise dynamics, increase PRAT and overemphasise the excitement level. It can sound very exciting and addictive to listen to, but after a long period you can tend to realise that proper music does not really sound like that. Perhpas some of your newly washed car feeling is some of the Naim colouration (which you tend to suggest it could be)
Its certainly possible some of this is going on with the Naim DAC. Many years ago I had a Naim CDI CD player and a similar thing went on there as was the case as with the amps. I have to say, I'm not up to date with the latest Naim gear though, its too pricey for me and whilst initially exciting, the colorations/sound quirks of the Naim sound tend to annoy annoysme in the longer term so I shelved their products a long time ago. From what I've have read though, the latest stuff (whilst still having the Naim signature sound) is less extreme sounding than the older gear.
The Bushmaster is not short of excitement and the pace etc is actually much improved from the Caiman in my opinion, - that's quite obvious from first listen. But there is no coloration of the details already there in terms of making it sound artificially exciting, - on the contrary, - its so transparent it just like an open window. Like I say, the added bonus is you also hear so many more details that you ever heard before (this is in comparison with the CAIMAN (which is no slouch already)). It must be the simplicity of Stan's design and the way he has somehow managed to make this new DAC still sound musical at same time. Less is most certainly more in this case.
I have had a bit of back and forth with Stan over the Bushmaster v Caiman scenario and my conclusion is that the Caiman better suits what i need. I have no DAC at all right now and whatever I buy it will be my first so I have no reference.
I just need the versatility of the Caiman - I will be able to use it as a passive amplifier and this is a big plus for me.
I will be very interested to see what else Stan is working on.
Much as all this chatter about the merits of various DACs interests me, I can't help thinking that much bigger differences would be noticed by changing the loudspeakers.
What loudspeakers have you used in the design process, Stan, and where do your personal preferences lie?
I guess Stan omitted the variable out on the Bushmaster in order to cut down the costs. I suppose its a reasonable area to cut as not that many people use the variable out, - usually only the fixed RCA outputs (into a preamp or integrated amp), or use the device as an all in one Class A headphone amp. Though I think he is planning an add on for the variable out with remote volume for the Bushmaster.
I am not sure the Caiman variable outs should be considered the same as using a passive preamp, - I think there is some useful gain from the variable outs as the output level is 2V so its more like an active preamp. Though I think someone mentioned before there is no buffering from the Caiman variable outs (active preamps usually use buffering), - I'm not sure exactly on that one.
Using the fixed output of the Caiman into an actual passive preamp (or simple attenuator) gives more transparency than the variable output, but at the cost of dynamics. I have compared the Caiman variable output to the Caiman fixed out into either of my two passive preamps and this is indeed the case. I have been pretty much given up on Passive preamps for this very reason though - the lack of dynamics really gets to me despite the transparency gains. Its OK with some simple material but too bothersome with most other material, - the sound is just too weak and it does not sound like real music. I currently use a valve preamp with loads of voltage gain and love the dynamics.
The lack of variable out on the Bushmaster is obviously not big issue for me as I use a separate active preamp (and I also use the DAC as a headphone amp), but I'll still be interested in buying the add on variable output and remote volume option in the future as I like having extra options to try (and like changes in my preamp scenario from time to time). If the Bushmaster variable output is similar to the Caiman variable out (which sounds very good) I'd be very happy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by northwest
I have been thinking about this as well, but came to the conclusion that it's about bang for your buck. As my system stands at the moment, I think I'd have to spend in the region of £6-800 to upgrade my amp or speakers to have a noticeable change. I can't justify that at the moment. An upgrade of around £170 is much more palatable, and given what Colin has said, it's quite likely to make a difference. I've read on here the Stan's very good about returns if your not satisfied though, as I suppose not everyone might see the changes as improvements, personal taste and all that. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing what a DAC upgrade can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Labarum
Yeah it would be interesting to know what equipment you test with Stan. Sorry if this has been mentioned before, i couldn't spot any info on your profile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Labarum
I'm going to have to ignore this product completely as I've had an M-dac on order since December.
Has anyone got any comparisons of the two?
Even more importantly, what room have you used in the design process, Stan?Quote:
Originally Posted by Labarum
I'm surprised that not many people use the variable outs, I would have thought, that for most people, hiding away the large clunky stuff (amps p.amps etc) and the DAC doubling up as a preamp would be half the point. I wonder what percentage of people like the bits on display, especially when it comes to computer based audio?
I've tried the variable outs on Caiman, but was not happy with the output volume it was giving me. Basically, I would have to crank the volume control on the Caiman all the way up to get the same loudness I get from my pre-amp at around 10:00 (which is some 20 - 30% of the max volume possible). That just doesn't cut the mustard for me, as I often enjoy my music very loud!Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpkineater23
So I'm perfectly happy to learn that Bushmaster had cut the charade and is going fixed only -- less stuff to worry about inside the DAC, way to go!
I don't use speaker makes or models, or room sizes as a measurement guide in my DAC designs. My view is that a DAC should sound excellent at all times, no matter which speakers you own or room size you use it in.
My solutionQuote:
Originally Posted by pumpkineater23
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-a...2/IMG_1561.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-m...0/IMG_1534.JPG
Simples!
Blimey ... What a bloody questionQuote:
Originally Posted by magiccarpetride
Any idea of the room that naim use for testing?
Very neat Brian. Just out of interest, do you use the pot on the DAC or the ones on the Quad to control the volume, & have you compared the two for sound quality?Quote:
Originally Posted by Labarum
I use the Caiman's volume control - it's a ganged stereo pot. The sensitivity pots on the power amp are single channel. I have not tried the Caiman fixed out into the power amp.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
I also have a Quad power amp and have not tried it with the Beresford fixed outs. I worry that without any preamp the volume would be at the highest at default and I might damage my speakers. (I use J.River/PC remote to adjust volume).Quote:
Originally Posted by Labarum
Hey that's a nice tidy setup you have there.
Strange, I find the opposite. My Beresford volume control is very sensitive with variable outs and Quad power amp - I never go past half way even at my most drunkest. It's usually set at about a quarter past and I adjust with J.River/PC remote and seem to have plenty of volume.Quote:
Originally Posted by magiccarpetride
I had great fun for a short period playing my Accuphase CD player directly into a Quad 520. I was sorry to see it go - a very capable amp.
How many watts into 8 ohm are we talking?Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpkineater23
This is the so-called 'Beatles syndrome' in hi fi. Basically, it don't matter if you're listening to a Beatles song on a shitty Japanese transistor from the early '60s or on an amazing ultra high-end hi fi system, the song always sounds amazing!Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB
SSSHHHHH! Don't wake them up ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
140 watts I believe. It's a Quad 606.Quote:
Originally Posted by magiccarpetride
Why did you do this to me? <sigh> Do we have a date for the emergence of the Bushmaster? (apologies in advance if this has been answered already).Quote:
The lack of variable out on the Bushmaster is obviously not big issue for me as I use a separate active preamp (and I also use the DAC as a headphone amp), but I'll still be interested in buying the add on variable output and remote volume option in the future as I like having extra options to try (and like changes in my preamp scenario from time to time). If the Bushmaster variable output is similar to the Caiman variable out (which sounds very good) I'd be very happy.
Hi Graham,
Just a quickie... Did you go and get the P2 from Convoy Records? :)
Marco.
Part of the mystery here is that the Quad 606 has a very high input sensitivity compared to other power amps around. It's nothing whatsoever to do with power output levels. Even a 3 watt per channel 2A3 valve amp can have very high input sensitivity. The Quad 606 input sensitivity is a very high 0.5V for full output rather than the usual 1.6V or so. Its due the the current dumping circuit and its also a deliberate part of the design. Quad preamps such as the 66 or 99 etc have very little gain, because they lack gain stages that can potentially degrade the sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpkineater23
I actually sold my 606 because a mate of mine in the USA told me that configuring the output transistors for such high output puts them past their linear point and the sound suffers to some extent. After carefully comparing to some other power amps of normal input sensitivity I did indeed find this was the case with the 606 (I did find the sound was a little crude and rough in comparison). The Quad pre/power amp philosophy seems to be that the preamp is low gain but high quality in terms of SQ and the power amp is high gain but less good sound quality, - the two kind of balance each other out. I used my Quad 606 with a 99 preamp for a while and the sound was very good. I did still run out of volume level though which is why I sold both. The 99 preamp has insanely low max output levels, - you even get far less max output than the unity gain available from a passive preamp (for example). If I had not run out of volume level, I would have likely kept the Quad 99/606 combo. My insensitive Magnepan speakers were part of the issue (the Quad 606 drives them great from a "drive" point of view as it can whack 240 watts into 4 ohms), - its just a shame I ran out of volume (which was 100% due to the 99 preamp). The sound of the 606 with preamps with more gain is not as good as it is with the lower gain Quad preamps.
Anyway (sorry to ramble on a diversion) the reason your Caiman volume control is not used very high up with the Quad 606 is because of the latters high input sensitivity. Even a passive preamp can be used with a Quad 606 and you can get deafening levels. With the Caiman variable out you potentially have even more max volume than with a passive.
I use my Caiman sometimes with its variable out into my NAD and Aragon power amps and it works well. I have to put the pot level pretty high, - around 12 to 3 o clock depending on the material, but the max volume level on the pot is quite a lot more on mine, - around 5 o' clock. Its not an issue in my opinion as I've never run out of volume.
The Caiman variable output has loads more output level than the Quad 99 preamp. The 99 outputs only 0.775 mv. The Caiman does 2V.
Whether the Caiman variable output has enough vol level would depend on the size of your room, input sensitivity of your power amp, the sensitivity of your speakers, and how loud you listen.......
I have average input sensitivity power amps, insensitive Magnepan speakers, medium sized room, and listen at medium to high levels. I find the Caiman variable output has plenty of output level for me, - I've never needed to turn it up full.
Quote:
Originally Posted by magiccarpetride
As your Quad 520F power amp has pots on it you could try the Caiman fixed output into it and potentially get better sound (as you are omitting the attenuation circuit on the Caiman so getting a purer signal path). Make sure the pots are at minimum on the amp though before doing so. For everyone else with a power amp without pots (which is usually the case), never use the Caiman fixed output into the power amp unattenuated unless you want a nice shock and potentially damage your speakers. :eyebrows: The Quad 520F is unusual on a forum like this as its a pro amp that has pots. Most hifi power amps have no pots on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Labarum
NEVER try the Caiman fixed outs into your Quad 606 power amp with any attenuator or preamp in between. There is no way to attenuate the signal and as the 606s has such high input sensitivity damage would v likely to be done to your ears and speakers!. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by pumpkineater23
I asked Stan about people using the variable outs and he reckons it's the least used part of the DAC. I think a lot of people buy these DACs to use them as an all on one, good quality class A headphone amp. I had a Graham Slee Solo on loan for a friend a while back and did not like the sound at all, - it was far too clinical and a bit lean. I far prefer the Gatorised Caiman which sounds so much more natural and musical, and its so much cheaper.....
I did not have time to listen to the Bushmaster headphone out when Stan stepped by at the weekend (We only used my main system with the Magnepan speakers). I would have loved to try it with my Sennhesiver HD250II and Yamaha YH100 orthdynamic headphones, but perhpas it would not have been a good idea as I would likely now be even more unsatisfied with my Caiman (which still sound great, but in comparison to the Bushmaster......:doh: roll on April!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpkineater23
No, I was snowed in in New York so I have to hang about here for a few days browsing the record stores:-(Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Emailed Rupert and I am picking it up Friday:cool:
Nice one, dude. Hope you enjoy it :)
Marco.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin151
Thanks for answering that one, I was wondering if it was power related or something else. Bearing in mind what you have said I don't suppose you could recommend a DAC to be used as a preamp with my Quad 606? I will be seeking an upgrade this summer.
Just want to add that I use the variable output in my main setup... as seen in my signature
Well, as we know, there is nothing that's very cheap on the DAC front that has a variable output,- apart from the Caiman (and the Bushmaster when the variable option on that comes out). So you could potentially sell your 7520 and get a used Caiman for example. I have not compared the two but I hear the Caiman is quite a lot better than the 7520. When I get the Bushmaster you are welcome to borrow my Caiman to hear how much difference there is.Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpkineater23
You have other options too. The Quad 606 power amp does work quite well with a passive preamp. You would get a more transparent sound in some regards if you tried that. The dynamics with that combo would still not bad as the 606 has so much gain. The Quad 606 does have a low input impedance though so there might be some roll off in the bass and treble. A passive preamp and buffer is an even better option (you don't get the roll off), - something like a DIY Pass B1 clone buffer or the DCB1. When used with the 7520 fixed outputs either of these options (passive pre, or passive pre with buffer) will definitely give you a more transparent sound than using the 7520 variable outputs, as would using a low gain Quad active preamp. I've had both the 66 and 99 preamps before and both sound great with the 606, - particularly the 99. A Quad pre/power setup would likely again outperform the 7520 variable out but it all depends on your budget (a Quad preamp would not be too cheap, - around £250-350) and you would have to take into account the limited max volume level. What speakers do you use? Their sensitivity is v important with regards to this as the Quad preamps have so little gain. This is the reason the Quad preamps sound better than the Caiman/7520 variable output ( I compared at length when I had the 99 preamp), - it would be near to be impossible for the Caiman/7520 varable output to sound better as it has so much higher output.
For me (with the Quad pre/power combo), it was just a dealbreaker on the max vol issue when used with my insensitive speakers.
The Quad preamp option is pretty expensive though it could be worth trying is you have the funds, - you could always sell the preamp on if you did not think the change was worth the expense. For a v cheap change to try out, I would say to use the 7520 fixed output with a passive preamp into your Quad 606 and see how you like the sound. You could even build a passive pre for a tenner or so. It will certainly be more transparent that using the variable output of the 7520. The dynamics with a passive pre were the dealbreaker for me, but some people don't find it so much of a problem, and (like I say) it is likely to be less of a problem with the Quad 606. I also have a passive pre you could borrow if you are interested in trying it out.
Another option could be to get a cheap valve preamp (and again use the 7520 fixed output), though that's more likely to be a sideways step (in general) compared to the variable output and a subjective one, - some people like what valves add to the sound. If you wanted to try that I would suggest getting a valve preamp with an cathode follower, - such as a Yaqin MS12B (this is the one I use, - it's pretty cheap at around £200.) The Cathode follower is really needed with solid state amps such as the Quad 606 (due to their low input impedance.)
If you want a more certain improvement to some areas of the sound (such as pureness and transparency) I would look at a passive preamp, or Quad preamp. With the passive pre dynamics and roll off at the frequency extremes could be an issue. Those are not issues with a Quad preamp, - the problem with the latter is really just the cost of the preamp. Or (like I mentioned at the start), upgrading from the 7520 to the Caiman (and also using its variable outs) is a likely good option and not too pricey at all once you've resold the 7520.
So three immediate options I can see for you. Waiting for the Bushmaster variable out option is another of course.... I am betting that will sound even much better than the Caiman variable out.
hmmm.......:scratch:Quote:
Originally Posted by slate
So it seems some people do rely on the variable output. I guess it's more likely people that use the variable out on this forum than in general though. I am guessing the the majority of people buy Stan's DACs for the good quality headphone amp built in and cheap all in one solution for headphones. The headphone ability was the main reason I bought my Caiman in the first place (to mainly use it with a PC), - then I tried the Caiman on my Cd player/Hifi with speakers.... and didn't look back. So it doubles up for me, it's such a flexible little device.
It is a bit of a shame the Bushmaster does not have variable output right off the bat but I know Stan wanted to price the Bushmaster lower than the Caiman, and something had to give to achieve this. I am glad he choose the variable out rather than the headphone amp ability (for example), and at least there is going to be the add on variable output to come in the future.
Those who rely on the variable output might be a bit stuck on the upgrade path for a while until the add on comes out. I would have suggested a passive preamp or simple attenuator in between DAC and power amp as a potential way around this, but Stan said yesterday that's a no no due to the Bushmasters DC output, - apparently a scratchy sound will result. I am intrigued with his mention of using caps though to sort this out. Where would you put the caps Stan? In between Bushmaster and attenuator?, or in between attenuator and power amp?:scratch: (I am not that technical!)
Quite a few folks here on AoS do that Colin - it was quite a revelation to some.
You mean using the fixed output of the DAC and a passive preamp?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
I really like the transparency of that option. I have one of those LDR passive preamps and its really transparent (far more so even than a passive pre with a normal contact pot).
With a passive preamp the lack of dynamics just bothered me after a while. It's much less of an issue with some material than others of course, and a somewhat subjective thing. I know many people swear by passive preamps. A passive pre and a buffer is a pretty good compromise IMO (I have a clone Pass B1 I use sometime with my LDR preamp). That's like a half way house (half way between a totally passive preamp and an active preamp), - you get some dynamics back and you get greater extension at frequency extremes (especially when running into a solid state power amp) whilst still getting the passive type transparency.
No, I was affirming what you had surmised when you said this:
Quote:
hmmm.......
So it seems some people do rely on the variable output. I guess it's more likely people that use the variable out on this forum than in general though.
Ahh I see. Yeah, The variable output is a v useful option for some people (with the Caiman etc) and it does sound very good. The other preamps I use are not better sounding, just different. Variable output is a money saver for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
I suppose something had to give for Stan to price the Bushmaster so competitive. Like I just mentioned, I am guessing the headphone amp section of this DAC is what more people use in general and would consider to be more important than variable out.
Perhaps the attenuator/cap option when using the fixed output could be a way around this for some potential Bushmaster buyers, until the variable output option comes out....
Quote:
Originally Posted by jandl100
Hey, Stan. You're the Man! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB
I fondly recall - many years ago! - when I did an ebay impulse buy on the old mk2 Beresford 7510 DAC. Intended as a bit of a laugh to use with my minidisc player (tbh, at it's £100 price point I was expecting it to sound shite and return it for a refund!) I tried it on my main rig ... and the dang thing blew me away. :doh:
I think that the Beresford DAC was the very first of my now infamous "Jerry Hype Forum Fad" threads to appear on the Wigwam. Boy, did that cause a stir! :lol:
... I've also just invested in the Tracy (no 'e') Chapman CD that folks have been on about - £1.69 delivered from good ol' Amazon Market Place. :)