Why do you need a speaker crossover - discuss

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07-07-2011, 17:03
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca

What about a loudspeaker with a full range driver covering the presence band, a self protecting tweeter and a seperate bass enclosure with a dedicted bass driver and built in amplifier that only delivers power through the 10 hz to say 80 hz range? - that gives you a wideband 3-way speaker with no crossover components.

We have also not addressed the crossover point - sticking the crosover at 2.5khz or 3khz slap in the middle of the performance range is where the crossover will have the most deletorious effect.

Lateral and interesting thoughts at last. :)
07-07-2011, 17:06
hifi_dave

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Dave please read the thread, the first post explains it.

Driver selection addresses the sensitivity issue, and a simple blocking cap protects the tweeter, that is not a crossover, it is protection. For me the definition of a crossover is the desire to tailor the response of the drivers electrically via passive components configured as filters. I am saying that tailoring *can* be done mechanically and to my ears having compared a version with crossover with a version doped, it has made one hell of a difference.

I have read the first post and all those that followed. Thank you.

'Driver selection' with a two or more way speaker, limits your choice to drivers having similar sensitivity. Anything else and you will need a crossover. Surely ?
07-07-2011, 17:22
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by hifi_dave

I have read the first post and all those that followed. Thank you.

'Driver selection' with a two or more way speaker, limits your choice to drivers having similar sensitivity. Anything else and you will need a crossover. Surely ?

Nope, and even if they don't match it is a simple series resistor with the tweeter. So a blocking protection cap and a matching resistor is still not a crossover.
07-07-2011, 17:24
technobear

Quote:

Originally Posted by hifi_dave

'Driver selection' with a two or more way speaker, limits your choice to drivers having similar sensitivity. Anything else and you will need a crossover. Surely ?

Well, no actually. You could use several of the less sensitive unit. You could add a high quality series resistor to the more sensitive unit.
07-07-2011, 17:24
Macca

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Nope, and even if they don't match it is a simple series resistor with the tweeter. So a blocking protection cap and a matching resistor is still not a crossover.

So when does a crossover become a crossover then :scratch:
07-07-2011, 17:31
MartinT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca

So when does a crossover become a crossover then :scratch:

When you are splitting frequencies.
07-07-2011, 17:31
technobear

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca

So when does a crossover become a crossover then :scratch:

When it tailors the frequency responses of the drive units so as to blend them into a flat(ish) overall response.

It could be argued that even the tweeter capacitor is in fact doing this and does represent a crossover. It certainly distorts phase relationships and therefore still has to be used with due care and attention to its effect.
07-07-2011, 17:34
Macca

Quote:

Originally Posted by technobear

When it tailors the frequency responses of the drive units so as to blend them into a flat(ish) overall response.

It could be argued that even the tweeter capacitor is in fact doing this and does represent a crossover. It certainly distorts phase relationships and therefore still has to be used with due care and attention to its effect.

That would be my definiton too, but if Richard considers a cap and a resistor on the tweeter not to be a crossover then his definiton is different, is it not?
07-07-2011, 17:34
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca

So when does a crossover become a crossover then :scratch:

Ah the $64k question. I can only give my opinion. A crossover is the seperation of two drivers, protection and sensitivty matching is not, it is just (normally) on the tweeter. So if there are no components associated with the other driver(s) it is not a crossover.

Even if it is just a coil (inductor) on the bass / mid then it becomes a simple crossover (as use by Royd for example) more elements to create steeper filter slopes and elements to tailor the response in band turns it complicated and complex and problematic.
07-07-2011, 17:43
Macca

okay so if we now understand what we are all meaning with 'crossover' we can proceed:)

Further to my wideband 3 way xoverless system - This could be lashed up with a decent 6.5 inch full ranger on an open baffle, baffle size to determine the roll off point of the full range driver down to where the bass drivers kick in - bass drivers could be lashed up with an old REL sub on each channel. Add a parasitic super-tweeter on each side and Bob's your mother's brother.:)

I'm actually quite tempted to have a go at that...
07-07-2011, 17:46
nat8808

Quote:

Originally Posted by pure sound

You can look at it the other way round. Someone might feel that a carefully implemented crossover or a well designed output transformer (for example) were tools that might be used to take advantage of the particular attributes of a drive unit or a particular output device like a Direct Heated Triode and without them the benefits of those items might not be realised.

With regard to horns, you wouldn't dope the horn. You'd hope that it was fairly inert though. However it will still have a driver behind it and that might benefit from mechanical treatment in just the same way as it might in a conventional direct radiator. Indeed the profile of the horn chosen might be used to extend or limit the bandwidth or sensitivity of a particular driver by strictly mechanical means!

With drivers dozens of different cone materials and profiles have been tried. Trying to control cone behaviour & break-up invariably seems to involve adding mass in one way or another. ie heavier, stiffer materials, ribs, doping etc. These treatments certainly will alter the sound just as applying correction via electrical means will. I still keep going back to paper cones which, when they do misbehave, do so in what seems a predictable & natural way. Adding mass will compromise the fineness of their resolving power though.

I suppose the reason I like multi-way horns is that when used with drivers having lightweight diaphragms & powerful magnets, they can produce adequate SPLs with the minimum of cone movement so a reduced chance of distortion through diaphragm deformation or through the voice coil having to move in the less linear parts of the magnet gap.

With regard to the directly driven electrostatics, its an intriguing idea & I'd like to hear them if only to learn whether it addresses my reservations about electrostatic loudspeakers. Having seen some of Nick's other work (well pictures of it) I'm sure he's more than capable of implementing it safely. I'm not sure it'd ever be a commercial product but then people do make plasma tweeters so who knows?

EDIT. I did once hear some Beveridge System 2's which had 200W valve amps built into the bases and which may have been directly coupled. They were by far the most impressive electrostatic speakers I've heard, not without flaws but head & shoulders clear of the usual Quads & Martin Logans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Then they are necessary, that is not the point of this thread. They will become unnecessary when an individual finds a way to do without them. In that case would you hang on to them just for the sake of it.

The rest of your post I agree with.

:thumbsup:

That was my question earlier.
07-07-2011, 17:48
nat8808

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Ah the $64k question. I can only give my opinion. A crossover is the seperation of two drivers, protection and sensitivty matching is not, it is just (normally) on the tweeter. So if there are no components associated with the other driver(s) it is not a crossover.

Even if it is just a coil (inductor) on the bass / mid then it becomes a simple crossover (as use by Royd for example) more elements to create steeper filter slopes and elements to tailor the response in band turns it complicated and complex and problematic.

Oddly enough, the designer of my Jordan JX92 drivered speakers added an inductor (can't remember his reason) after extensive listening tests - might see what happens when I remove it from the equation.
07-07-2011, 18:04
Paul Hynes

You could argue that my open baffle line source arrays use mechanical solutions for tricky issues. I use Visaton B200 drivers and their individual response curve is anything but flat through the audio band, although I suspect these curves were produced from drive units that were fresh off the production line and not run in. After a month or so of run in the ragged top end smoothes out considerably and the drive unit sounds more coherent through the audio band. The bass end of an individual drive unit is lightweight due to the falling response, but happily, when mounting eight drive units in a vertical array, the parallel operation of the drive units gives a large boost in efficiency in the lower mid and bass end, which reinforces the bass very nicely in a way that evens out the bass/mid response to the point where I do not feel the need for subwoofers. The bass goes very deep when there is deep bass in the program and there is no cabinet honk or restriction as the arrays are open baffle. A well recorded kick drum sounds like a kick drum and I should know what this sounds like as I usually stood near to the drummer in the group I used to play in as a youngster.

Line arrays have benefits regarding reduced room interaction due to the way they propagate energy into the room. This is another mechanical solution to reduce an age-old problem of room interaction.

I have to admit that the top end rolls off a little earlier than many would require, however this can be a blessing with some program especially from digital sources, and the treble is nicely coherent.

The near field amplitude response of the line array falls off at only 3 dB for every doubling of distance whereas a point source propagating a spherical wave front falls off at 6 dB per doubling of distance. This adds further to the overall efficiency in a beneficial way. The very high efficiency of the lines means I only need a few watts to achieve concert levels, which is a nice side effect of the parallel drive units and the effects of the way the wave front is propagated into the room, which is once again a result of a mechanical solution.

Using eight drivers per channel means the lines can move enough air for concert levels without extreme cone excursions so the distortion levels of the drive units are very low.

So effectively I have moved away from complexity by implementing mechanical solutions in the loudspeaker design to minimise components in the signal path. There are no crossover components in the arrays. This has benefited the electronics too and my power amp has one mosfet and one resistor in the direct signal path and my line preamp is an LDR L-pad with one LDR directly in series with the signal. There is just no need for any voltage gain in these sections.

This works for me and I have not felt the need to work on the speakers or amplification for over four years. Prior to that I was always fiddling around spending vast amounts of R&D time looking for improvements.

Out of interest the system is great for home cinema duty too and some of the sound effects in the blockbuster films can be awesome.

Paul
07-07-2011, 18:21
John

A very interesting approach Paul. I am wondering if possible you can show some pictures perhaps on another thread I for one would find it very interesting
07-07-2011, 18:22
Macca

Yes a picture would be good if possible, please Paul?
07-07-2011, 18:54
technobear

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Hynes

...happily, when mounting eight drive units in a vertical array, the parallel operation of the drive units gives a large boost in efficiency in the lower mid and bass end...

I've never heard this before. Does this really boost the low end of an OB array relative to the midband? I'm intrigued.
07-07-2011, 19:00
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Open baffle is the ultimate solution if you are completely nerdy, have got a separate play room, don't have a wife, etc. I can't cater for that nor can anyone else even in a mildly commercial situation. Even horns are limited choice due to these factors.

Now I know I have railed against WAF speakers but there has to be compromise of sorts aesthetically. I am avoiding showing pics as I know I will be accused of something if I do.
07-07-2011, 19:05
Ali Tait

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Hynes

You could argue that my open baffle line source arrays use mechanical solutions for tricky issues. I use Visaton B200 drivers and their individual response curve is anything but flat through the audio band, although I suspect these curves were produced from drive units that were fresh off the production line and not run in. After a month or so of run in the ragged top end smoothes out considerably and the drive unit sounds more coherent through the audio band. The bass end of an individual drive unit is lightweight due to the falling response, but happily, when mounting eight drive units in a vertical array, the parallel operation of the drive units gives a large boost in efficiency in the lower mid and bass end, which reinforces the bass very nicely in a way that evens out the bass/mid response to the point where I do not feel the need for subwoofers. The bass goes very deep when there is deep bass in the program and there is no cabinet honk or restriction as the arrays are open baffle. A well recorded kick drum sounds like a kick drum and I should know what this sounds like as I usually stood near to the drummer in the group I used to play in as a youngster.

Line arrays have benefits regarding reduced room interaction due to the way they propagate energy into the room. This is another mechanical solution to reduce an age-old problem of room interaction.

I have to admit that the top end rolls off a little earlier than many would require, however this can be a blessing with some program especially from digital sources, and the treble is nicely coherent.

The near field amplitude response of the line array falls off at only 3 dB for every doubling of distance whereas a point source propagating a spherical wave front falls off at 6 dB per doubling of distance. This adds further to the overall efficiency in a beneficial way. The very high efficiency of the lines means I only need a few watts to achieve concert levels, which is a nice side effect of the parallel drive units and the effects of the way the wave front is propagated into the room, which is once again a result of a mechanical solution.

Using eight drivers per channel means the lines can move enough air for concert levels without extreme cone excursions so the distortion levels of the drive units are very low.

So effectively I have moved away from complexity by implementing mechanical solutions in the loudspeaker design to minimise components in the signal path. There are no crossover components in the arrays. This has benefited the electronics too and my power amp has one mosfet and one resistor in the direct signal path and my line preamp is an LDR L-pad with one LDR directly in series with the signal. There is just no need for any voltage gain in these sections.

This works for me and I have not felt the need to work on the speakers or amplification for over four years. Prior to that I was always fiddling around spending vast amounts of R&D time looking for improvements.

Out of interest the system is great for home cinema duty too and some of the sound effects in the blockbuster films can be awesome.

Paul

Interesting Paul, The B200 is a good driver is it not? They are used in my OB's, along with a pair of 15" Eminence Alpha bass helpers per side.
07-07-2011, 19:09
John

I must admit even I might baulk at how big Paul speakers must be to achieve this
Richard I for one would be interested in what you done if people want to see an agenda so be it.
07-07-2011, 19:20
Macca

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Open baffle is the ultimate solution if you are completely nerdy, have got a separate play room, don't have a wife, etc. I can't cater for that nor can anyone else even in a mildly commercial situation. Even horns are limited choice due to these factors.

Now I know I have railed against WAF speakers but there has to be compromise of sorts aesthetically. I am avoiding showing pics as I know I will be accused of something if I do.

If we took WAF into account when engineering we would still be living in the caves. Did they take WAF into account when designing Concord?:lolsign:

And post the pictures - if it helps the discussion why not?
07-07-2011, 19:24
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by John

I must admit even I might baulk at how big Paul speakers must be to achieve this
Richard I for one would be interested in what you done if people want to see an agenda so be it.

OK be it on your head, I predict the vultures will fly.

Three versions, a small one (on the floor) with 6inch bass/mid, a middle one with 8inch bass / mid and a larger one with two 8 inch bass / mid in an isobaric configuration.

As I say unless the price of acrylic fabrication comes down I doubt there will be more of them built and the cabinet is an intrinsic part of the design, so wood will not substitute without substantial rework. Three customers have early prototype pairs of the middle ones one in the UK one in Luxembourg and one in Belgium. I have the smaller and middle ones listed at ebay because I have one spare pair of cabinets for each.

The latest work I have done has taken them forward from when the prototypes were shown as Scalford two years ago and at Whittlebury last year.

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/p...A/IMG_3946.jpg
07-07-2011, 19:31
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali Tait

Interesting Paul, The B200 is a good driver is it not? They are used in my OB's, along with a pair of 15" Eminence Alpha bass helpers per side.

The B200 is what Guy (Pure Sound) referred to earlier as the plastic horror. I will leave it at that and not tell you what I think.
07-07-2011, 19:36
pure sound

No. the Visaton B200 looks to be quite a nice driver & with a relatively high Qts should work well in OB.

http://www.visaton.de/en/chassis_zub...nd/b200_6.html

But I'm also interested to know why its higher o/p in the mid wouldn't sum just as the bass end does and why it wouldn't start beaming quite alot higher up.
07-07-2011, 19:43
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by pure sound

No. the Visaton B200 looks to be quite a nice driver & with a relatively high Qts should work well in OB.

http://www.visaton.de/en/chassis_zub...nd/b200_6.html

But I'm also interested to know why its higher o/p in the mid wouldn't sum just as the bass end does and why it wouldn't start beaming quite alot higher up.

Whoops! sorry I presumed the B200 was the Kef B200.
07-07-2011, 19:46
John

I yet to hear those Richard so no idea how welll it works
For me I am very happy with my non WAV open baffles but admit I think my passive xover gets in the way a bit. The Crystals offer more resolution (no xover) but need careful partnering whilst mine are a bit more forgiving
I am still very interested in what Paul has done but think those speakers must be huge and I saying that being very happy with 2 x 15" drivers per speaker
07-07-2011, 20:16
anthonyTD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Hynes

You could argue that my open baffle line source arrays use mechanical solutions for tricky issues. I use Visaton B200 drivers and their individual response curve is anything but flat through the audio band, although I suspect these curves were produced from drive units that were fresh off the production line and not run in. After a month or so of run in the ragged top end smoothes out considerably and the drive unit sounds more coherent through the audio band. The bass end of an individual drive unit is lightweight due to the falling response, but happily, when mounting eight drive units in a vertical array, the parallel operation of the drive units gives a large boost in efficiency in the lower mid and bass end, which reinforces the bass very nicely in a way that evens out the bass/mid response to the point where I do not feel the need for subwoofers. The bass goes very deep when there is deep bass in the program and there is no cabinet honk or restriction as the arrays are open baffle. A well recorded kick drum sounds like a kick drum and I should know what this sounds like as I usually stood near to the drummer in the group I used to play in as a youngster.

Line arrays have benefits regarding reduced room interaction due to the way they propagate energy into the room. This is another mechanical solution to reduce an age-old problem of room interaction.

I have to admit that the top end rolls off a little earlier than many would require, however this can be a blessing with some program especially from digital sources, and the treble is nicely coherent.

The near field amplitude response of the line array falls off at only 3 dB for every doubling of distance whereas a point source propagating a spherical wave front falls off at 6 dB per doubling of distance. This adds further to the overall efficiency in a beneficial way. The very high efficiency of the lines means I only need a few watts to achieve concert levels, which is a nice side effect of the parallel drive units and the effects of the way the wave front is propagated into the room, which is once again a result of a mechanical solution.

Using eight drivers per channel means the lines can move enough air for concert levels without extreme cone excursions so the distortion levels of the drive units are very low.

So effectively I have moved away from complexity by implementing mechanical solutions in the loudspeaker design to minimise components in the signal path. There are no crossover components in the arrays. This has benefited the electronics too and my power amp has one mosfet and one resistor in the direct signal path and my line preamp is an LDR L-pad with one LDR directly in series with the signal. There is just no need for any voltage gain in these sections.

This works for me and I have not felt the need to work on the speakers or amplification for over four years. Prior to that I was always fiddling around spending vast amounts of R&D time looking for improvements.

Out of interest the system is great for home cinema duty too and some of the sound effects in the blockbuster films can be awesome.

Paul

hi Paul,
A very intersting aproach.
i have experience of some linear arrays and their potential.
however, not on the scale of what you describe.
So,,,picks please [when you get chance] you have my full attention now!:eyebrows:
Anthony,TD...
07-07-2011, 21:11
Ali Tait

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Open baffle is the ultimate solution if you are completely nerdy, have got a separate play room, don't have a wife, etc. I can't cater for that nor can anyone else even in a mildly commercial situation. Even horns are limited choice due to these factors.

Now I know I have railed against WAF speakers but there has to be compromise of sorts aesthetically. I am avoiding showing pics as I know I will be accused of something if I do.

Well I wouldn't call myself a nerd, and my partner is quite happy having a pair of large OB's in the lounge, as she loves the way they sound. In fact, not only are the OB's in the lounge, behind them are a pair of 2m tall electrostatics. She's a good lady.
07-07-2011, 21:44
aquapiranha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/p...A/IMG_3946.jpg

Richard, can you give us more details about the drivers? If you would like to keep that info confidential I would understand.

:)
07-07-2011, 21:55
technobear

Quote:

Originally Posted by pure sound

No. the Visaton B200 looks to be quite a nice driver & with a relatively high Qts should work well in OB.

http://www.visaton.de/en/chassis_zub...nd/b200_6.html

But I'm also interested to know why its higher o/p in the mid wouldn't sum just as the bass end does and why it wouldn't start beaming quite alot higher up.

Quite a few on DIYaudio have removed the dust cap and replaced it with a phase plug. It is said this reduces the beaming and improves them no end.
07-07-2011, 22:15
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali Tait

Well I wouldn't call myself a nerd, and my partner is quite happy having a pair of large OB's in the lounge, as she loves the way they sound. In fact, not only are the OB's in the lounge, behind them are a pair of 2m tall electrostatics. She's a good lady.

Then count your blessing, with most it would lead to divorce if it was in the living room.
07-07-2011, 22:21
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquapiranha

Richard, can you give us more details about the drivers? If you would like to keep that info confidential I would understand.
:)

The bass / mids cones are virtually rebuilt so there is little point in the name. There is a pic in an earlier thread of the 6 inch one showing magnet comparisons with the Dynaudio ones.

The HF unit is pretty standard, it is a D27TG which has been built by Scanspeak, Peerless and others. I do no mods to it.
07-07-2011, 22:22
aquapiranha

OK Thanks Richard. :)
07-07-2011, 22:29
Rare Bird

You know summert you listern to a pair of speakers, you like em or you don't.. what you like you have the oportunitiy to upgrade the crossover to give you what you like but in the hope of a more resolute sound. simples.. what you hoping for a miricle ?
07-07-2011, 22:52
Alex_UK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andre

You know summert you listern to a pair of speakers, you like em or you don't.. what you like you have the oportunitiy to upgrade the crossover to give you what you like but in the hope of a more resolute sound. simples.. what you hoping for a miricle ?

But it really isn't that simple, is it Andre?

Just because you think you like a pair of speakers, you might not really. Maybe the flat earth bullshit got to you, perhaps you read too many magazines which brainwashed you into thinking that, or perhaps you were ripped off by a retailer who only convinced you to buy the speakers you think you like, just so he can take his 50% margin on them!

Perhaps in some misguided way, you think that the British Broadcasting Corporation doesn't have a clue about sound reproduction, and you're only pleased with your speakers because you avoided their ghastly legacy at all costs!

Then again, perhaps you are right, a pair of speakers sound right if you like them and it matters not a jot what the technology is - because, being a discerning listener, you would appreciate that in hifi, there is no such thing as "the one true way" - as always, the underlying technology is largely inconsequential to the final product. Implementation is key - there are great speakers with crossovers, great speakers without. Great valve amps, great solid state amps... Great belt drive turntables and great direct drive turntables... I'm sure I don't have to keep going on, do I? People tend to get bored when you just keep repeating the same old dross.
07-07-2011, 22:55
Paul Hynes

I am trying to keep up with posts on this thread tonight but things are getting a little disjointed so bear with me if I miss something,.

I cannot photo the lines this week as we are re-decorating the lounge and making it more music friendly, however I have some photos of the line arrays I took at the old Cumbrian address that are on Photobucket at the following links :-

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/w...Picture036.jpg

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/w...Picture039.jpg

and the power amp :-

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/w...lhynes/SE1.jpg

and the line preamp :-

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/w...nes/VCCS1C.jpg

Anyone wishing to experiment and use these designs for their own personal system is welcome, but please do not use them commercially without arranging a license, as this is very disrespectful, and one of the main reasons people do not publish details of their design work nowadays.

Chris (technobear),

The efficiency gain is frequency dependant and gradual. Horn-loaded systems display this effect for different reasons.. The higher frequencies tend to beam and not reinforce, but the low frequencies couple and reinforce. With a bit of care with the selection of drive units, this can give a relatively flat response down to the low frequencies.

Another attribute of the line source is the wave front generated is essentially cylindrical in its expansion into the listening area. A floor to ceiling line source would show no ceiling or floor reflection removing a prime source of room interaction. Any reflection off the side walls sounds like venue reverb. In this instance as the line are open baffle there is a reflection from the rear wall, like planar speakers. If the line arrays are orientated correctly, the delay time is long enough not to interfere with leading edge information and the imaging remains intact with the reflection once again sounding like venue reverb. Venue reverb is normal and we tend to accept it accordingly.

I am aware of the phase plug options but I am not finding problems with beaming in reality. Once again this is a natural phenomenon and I think our brains may just ignore the effect as long as it is not exaggerated. When I get some time I will experiment with the recommended phase plugs to see how they affect behaviour with the line array.

Richard,

You are quite right about the commercial issues and domestic harmony. This is why I have not bothered to market the line arrays. However I think I am one of the lucky ones in that my lass and my daughter both love music and film, and art in general for that matter, so I can do what I want with the AV system even though it is in the main lounge. With this system I have not been working on a commercial solution, it is purely for myself and I will follow my wildest dreams to get the system where I want it to be. Speaking of dreams, I often dream up solutions to engineering problems while asleep. Does this happen with you too? It can save a lot of R&D time if the dream works in real time.

Ali,

The B200 is a good driver with the right parameters for use on open baffles. It is not perfect like every other driver, but it does have that musical magic that few modern drivers, that I have tried, seem to have. As you have some to listen to you will know what I mean. I did consider large diameter bass units in the early stage of my B200 experience but the benefits of the line array were drawing me like a siren. The reason the line arrays do not sum higher up the frequency bandwidth is due to the directional nature of the higher frequencies. The further up the bandwidth you go the more directional the beam becomes. This does increase combing effects. Even with a single source, as soon as the wave front hits an obstacle and is reflected back into the sound field, a combing effect will occur. For those mot familiar with this terminology, a combing effect occurs when two or more wave fronts collide and intermingle causing reinforcement, or cancellation, depending on the relative phase of the wave front. This is a natural phenomenon and the brain accepts it as normal.

The B200 line array is 2 metres tall.

You are lucky that your lass has the same love of music as you do.

John,

The line arrays are not as overpowering as you might think, as the baffles are quite slim. Tall maybe, but slim. Is the Ben Harper you refer to in your musical appreciation the son of Roy Harper?

Anthony,

Line arrays are used a lot in Pro Audio for good reason, so I am not surprise you are familiar with them. OK, they are relatively big in the domestic environment. If you want to have a go with them I will load the original drawings on Photobucket and post links on this thread. The concept will work with other drive units as long as they are happy working on an open baffle and have a reasonable bandwidth. I have tried some lower cost full range drivers but the results were less satisfactory. In fact I have just skipped a load of unsatisfactory drive units. Recycled properly of course.

Paul
07-07-2011, 23:09
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex_UK

But it really isn't that simple, is it Andre?

Just because you think you like a pair of speakers, you might not really. Maybe the flat earth bullshit got to you, perhaps you read too many magazines which brainwashed you into thinking that, or perhaps you were ripped off by a retailer who only convinced you to buy the speakers you think you like, just so he can take his 50% margin on them!

Perhaps in some misguided way, you think that the British Broadcasting Corporation doesn't have a clue about sound reproduction, and you're only pleased with your speakers because you avoided their ghastly legacy at all costs!

You really are obsessed with me aren't you :mental:
07-07-2011, 23:13
Alex_UK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

You really are obsessed with me aren't you :mental:

Oh yes, I'm planning on becoming your own personal stalker! ;)
07-07-2011, 23:22
flatpopely

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex_UK

Oh yes, I'm planning on becoming your own personal stalker! ;)

Already taken.
07-07-2011, 23:29
Marco

Ahem.....!!

As an aside, I do agree that there is no 'one true path' in audio and that implementation of design and components is the key. I don't see how anyone could dispute that.

Also, in terms of 'BBC-style' speakers, I will reiterate, that all the ones I've heard to date, from Chartwell LS35as, to Harbeth Compact 7s, M40.1s, Spendor BC1s, and ALL the current Spendor Classic range (including the SP100s I used for years), to my ears, sounded superb.

I think that context is also of paramount importance, and so I can only judge within the context which I heard the above speakers, so of course results will vary within the context of other people's listening experiences, for example Richard's, who obviously either has different tastes, or for whatever reason, wasn't as fortunate to hear 'BBC-style' speakers perform as optimally as I have, or Alex.

Anyway, let's not fall into the trap of absolutes (it is not healthy), and attribute equal validity to all of our respective experiences in audio, with loudspeakers, and everything else :cool:

Marco.
07-07-2011, 23:30
Stratmangler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

You really are obsessed with me aren't you :mental:

He is probably not!

I'm getting rather pissed off with all this prima donna ad hominem bullshit that you keep posting, and I'm pretty damned sure I'm not the only one thinking the same way.

Which in turn is a real shame, 'cos there have been some interesting points raised in this thread.

If you think you're being attacked report it to to the management, then retreat while it is dealt with.
Report this if you like - I don't care if you do, to be truthful.
07-07-2011, 23:34
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Hynes

Richard,

You are quite right about the commercial issues and domestic harmony. This is why I have not bothered to market the line arrays. However I think I am one of the lucky ones in that my lass and my daughter both love music and film, and art in general for that matter, so I can do what I want with the AV system even though it is in the main lounge. With this system I have not been working on a commercial solution, it is purely for myself and I will follow my wildest dreams to get the system where I want it to be. Speaking of dreams, I often dream up solutions to engineering problems while asleep. Does this happen with you too? It can save a lot of R&D time if the dream works in real time.

Well I am not sure I should reply as I am sure it will just re-enforce some peoples opinion that I am bonkers.

I have very rarely talked about but yes that is the only way I design. Nothing goes on paper, I write and draw and move things around in my head and most of it happens at night usual before and after sleep. An idea is placed in my mind and it is almost like a muse is in my head directing me, most bizarre, not so much recently it has calmed down a lot. I built the prototypes including the case working straight from my head. Laying the board (in the old days from Letraset) straight from my head. For production it is either measured and drawn up from the prototype or I dictate the design to my case makers and they draw it up. I have always been able to do this even as a kid and I find it normal, my wife thinks I'm bonkers when I have a eureka moment in the middle of the night.

Those speakers were first built in my head in bed :scratch:
07-07-2011, 23:38
Marco

There's nothing at all unusual about that, Richard. It is how most artistically-minded people function, for example, musicians and songwriters.

I can certainly relate to that way of thinking, and design, much more than to the mundane principles of the 'scope squad' ;)

Marco.
07-07-2011, 23:42
Marco

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatpopely

Already taken.

What constructive purpose did that post serve, Andrew?

Marco.
07-07-2011, 23:46
Alex_UK

Richard, I don't think anyone has a problem with you being bonkers, the "mad professor" image is quite endearing, in my opinion. For me personally, it's the arrogance that your posts portray the "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" attitude that seems to permeate every thread you become entrenched in, and then we just go round and round, until as I sarcastically suggested, all the old prejudices come out one by one.

Without wishing to offend you personally (truly, I don't know *you*) - coupled with the (as I see it) obnoxious attitude, I don't think you're winning many of us over. So I would respectfully suggest that being bonkers is the least of our concerns. ;)
07-07-2011, 23:51
Marco

Guys, can we move away from discussing personalities, and get back to discussing the thread topic instead?

If you don't like someone, or what they write - put them on your ignore list: simples. I just can't be doing with the moaning, dressed up as something intentionally sarcastic.

I was enjoying the standard of discussion here when the likes of Paul Hynes, Anthony, Richard, Nick, Guy S, Ali, etc, were batting ideas of each other, with regard to loudspeaker design, so either we return to that, or I close the thread.

Your choice!

Marco.
07-07-2011, 23:54
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco

Ahem.....!!

As an aside, I do agree that there is no 'one true path' in audio and that implementation of design and components is the key. I don't see how anyone could dispute that.

Also, in terms of 'BBC-style' speakers, I will reiterate, that all the ones I've heard to date, from Chartwell LS35as, to Harbeth Compact 7s, M40.1s, Spendor BC1s, and ALL the current Spendor Classic range (including the SP100s I used for years), to my ears, sounded superb.

I think that context is also of paramount importance, and so I can only judge within the context which I heard the above speakers, so of course results will vary within the context of other people's listening experiences, for example Richard's, who obviously either has different tastes, or for whatever reason, wasn't as fortunate to hear 'BBC-style' speakers perform as optimally as I have, or Alex.

Anyway, let's not fall into the trap of absolutes (it is not healthy), and attribute equal validity to all of our respective experiences in audio, with loudspeakers, and everything else :cool:

Marco.

Well at least I am not alone here now thinking they are crap. There is another deafy now in Guy.

Why do people think I post in absolutes, I post my opinion the same as everyone else. I would put IMO after every statement if you wish, but you think that is daft, so why can't people see that everything I say is IMO.
08-07-2011, 00:00
Alex_UK

Indeed, Marco. As you picked up on my post, the constructive bit (of my admitted sarcasm) - I truly don't believe there is a right or wrong answer to the original question - it is completely dependent on the design, as to whether or not you need a crossover and the aspirations of the designer. There are great implementations of every flavour - no crossover - passive crossover - active crossover - in the end, it will come down to how each version is implemented, and then to personal taste - as Andre eluded to, you will either like a particular design, or you won't - whether it has a crossover or not is in my opinion, largely irrelevant.
08-07-2011, 00:04
Marco

Quote:

Well at least I am not alone here now thinking they are crap. There is another deafy now in Guy.

Why do people think I post in absolutes, I post my opinion the same as everyone else. I would put IMO after every statement if you wish, but you think that is daft, so why can't people see that everything I say is IMO.

Well, Richard, to be blunt (and you know I mean no offence), you do tend to rattle on sometimes about the 'same old, same old', in terms of your particular 'pet hates', often I think without even being aware you are doing it.....

Therefore, I'd treat Alex's earlier gentle dig (his first post on the matter) as a polite reminder of that ;)

I don't think anyone here is "deaf". Like I said before, out with of personal tastes, context is the key. Perhaps if you'd heard some of the BBC loudspeaker designs in a different context, with different equipment, results would've been different? It's not an impossibility.

Therefore, I think it would be an idea to keep that thought in your head, rather than simply write off ALL BBC-style loudspeakers as crap, because to do so would simply be absolutist and smack of simplistic thinking, and IMO, you have a much more inquisitive mind than that!

Marco.
08-07-2011, 00:15
Marco

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco

What constructive purpose did that post serve, Andrew?

Marco.

I'm still waiting for an answer to this Andrew - trust me, ignoring me is not an option! ;)

Marco.
08-07-2011, 00:21
Butuz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco

I'm still waiting for an answer to this Andrew - trust me, ignoring me is not an option! ;)

Marco.

That's not what your missus told me :lolsign:

Just trying to take the pressure off a fellow Andrew :steam:

Butuz

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