Agree about the KEL.I have one myself.I find it a real giant-slayer.I've heard commercial stuff costing in the thousands that didn't equal this amp.Pretty much impossible to beat for the money IMHO!
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Agree about the KEL.I have one myself.I find it a real giant-slayer.I've heard commercial stuff costing in the thousands that didn't equal this amp.Pretty much impossible to beat for the money IMHO!
On the WD front:
i didn't have A CLUE about building electronics. everything you have heard about WD is true. They help you every step of the way and the forum will always help you out. check,check,check and check again. then wait for the smoke and bang!
on my first project - a kit6550, i had a dry joint and wired up all the valve bases wrong:confused:. but when i sorted it out and that rich valve sound came out of my speakers - it was a fantastic feeling of achievement.
hence the phono3 and the WD25ts
DO IT !!
More WD...
I'll second all that's been said. I've never built a WAD kit but the newer WD ones are a pleasure to do.
In fact, if anyone want one but doesn't want to do the building, I'll do it for free!... I enjoy that sort of stuff so much I wouldn't want a penny! :)
Cheers....
One caveat I've heard regarding the KEL.Apparently the WAD ones are superior to the newer WD ones.I'm told they changed the supplier of the output trannies for a cheaper inferior version.
Oooh....if I ever decide to give valves another whirl I'll give you a shout! The thought of me getting my fingers anywhere near several hundred volts of DC is a little too scary a prospect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shian7
Interesting point re the TX's in the WD amps vs the earlier WAD ones. I wonder if anyone can clarify this?
Edit: Just found a pic of a little trio of amps I had a year or 2 ago...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...mps1small1.jpg
The A21's another amp I shoudn't have got rid of... :(
What a coincidence! I have two of those amps still.
Oi, Richard, I asked you a question earlier about belt-drives vs. direct-drives! When you've got a moment, like ;)
Marco.
Regarding the KEL,I can't substantiate my comment except by saying more than one person has told me this.Whether the output trannies were actually changed or not I don't know for sure.The people who told me have heard for themselves though!
Hi Ali,
Certainly WD changed suppliers for all Tx's on all their kits after they bought out WD. The emphasis on the change was to go for better quality! I can't comment on what you've said because that is the first I've heard of it unless this is some confusion around the early WAD KeL84's that I think used torroidal O/P Tx's. They got better when they introduced the EI Tx's, but that was long before WD were on the scene.
We used the latest version at the Heathrow Show for a while. I was gobsmacked at it's capability. We were in a 90m sq room and through the WD25TXL's it coped very adequately! Not bad for 15 watts.
Anyone pondering getting into DIY could not go wrong with this little kit. It punches way above it's weight and is just £500 which for high end sound......yes, that's what you get, is an absolute bargain. As a learning kit it is ideal because the circuit is on PCB so it's soldering by numbers. Easy to do and as said above, there is a shed load of willing help if problems are encountered both here, on the WD website and of cause from WD themselves. It doesn't stop once it's built. You then have the option of revisiting, upgrading and even selecting replacement components so you get the exact balance you need for your system. If anyone is thinking of going in this direction and has not explored DIY before, this kit is a no brainer. I challenge anyone to buy one and then claim not to be satisfied!
Best wishes,
Greg
Hi Greg,
Well I can't really comment as I've not heard it for myself,but a couple of people who have heard WAD and WD KEL's both told me the same thing.I can say I'm dead happy with mine(WAD) it's pretty much unbeatable for the money IMHO.
Definitely not the KEL84's, these were EI from the start. WAD did use torroidal PSU and O/P transformers for one of their earlier budget amps, not sure which one (may have been KEL34), but as you say they later changed to EI's for the O/P's. Interestingly, WAD continued to use torroids for PSU transformers on several other power amps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg
Certainly all the views I have read seem to rate the WD transformers as better than WAD.:)
Difficult one this - the DD decks do get so much of the fundamental aspects of music (ie pitch/rhythm) very right, and for the money the sound quality available is a genuine shock. Of course with the upgrade-ability of the 1210 in particular it can make a for a formidable front end, at what is a bargain price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Am I enjoying my records more than I ever have? Is the music speaking to me as well as it ever has? This is where things aren't necessarily so clear-cut...
The one thing I look out for with a hifi system is its ability to communicate - can I catch the phrashing/intentions of the performer for example? The almost miniscule dynamic separations which comprise the musical phrase - the build and release of tension (I could go on for hours but will spare folk the boredom!) etc etc. This is where the NAS always scored for me - and to some extent it's still the best turntable I've had at home, or heard for any real length of time over an hour or 2. Where it tended to fall down vs the DD decks is in portrayal of transient dynamics - of course one could blame the arm/cartridge/mounting set-up etc but I feel that, fundamentally, a turntable's character is a major influence on the final result and doesn't tend to change drastically. It just gets diluted or concentrated depending on its ancillaries.
The bottom line is, and I believe quite firmly in this, that a good turntable is a good turntable, and a bad one a bad etc.
Interesting, Richard, and I agree with much of what you say.
However, if the Spacedeck is as good as you say then why has the P-71 been your turntable of choice for quite some time now? If you missed the Spacedeck enough you'd be using it - it's as simple as that, mate :)
I would contend that the 'best' turntable (when one has a selection to use) is that which one chooses to listen to music on the most - that's the acid test... You're hardly going to (long term) deprive yourself of that pleasure, are you?
The fact that the Spacedeck remains unplugged and the PL-71 is spinning tunes I suspect tells us all we need to know. You're enjoying music more on it, pure and simple.
If I see future pictures of 'Gromit's music centre' with the Spacedeck regularly taking pride of place instead of the P-71 then I'll hold my hands up and say I was wrong! ;)
Marco.
The NAS isn't being used because it's been sold - needed to free up the cash otherwise I'd still have it. I'll have to blame spending money on the new house for that. :(
Ah, it's a goner. I didn't know that. That's even more conclusive then, mate.
Money spent on houses is always worthwhile though in my experience. I hope things are moving along nicely for you :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco - here's hoping. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
We can't move in for quite some time but this is going to be our family home up near Cambridge once I finish working in London.
I'm thinking of doing a deal on my mate's WAD, just to have something to swap around every so often. The NVA pre works so well with it that I'm inclined to go for it. :)
Hi AliQuote:
Originally Posted by Ali Tait
Sorry, not been following this thread for a while. Big mistake! - some interesting stuff here.:)
To be perfectly honest, the hum and buzz that were coming from your WAD 300B amp were just too much to hear the music through - the S/N wasn't at all alarge number, so I really can't make any fair and sensible comment about sound quality. Shame the new 300Bs didn't turn up before I returned the amp, that might have sorted it.
Still trying to get them :( Have mailed seller to see if he can sort it out.
The P90sa pre has now arrived...so of course there's the obligatory pic. I call this one 'Black Magic'.... ;)
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...1/IMG_2292.jpg
Looks better without the CD player mucking up the rack aswell. :)
The P90's s/a pots need running in (I found the 50sa took a week or 2 to really come on song) but already the increase in clarity and information is acutely apparent. :)
Yeah, Richard, who needs that digital crap getting in the way... :eyebrows:
Looking good, mate. Your thoughts on the new preamp in detail would be appreciated when you get a proper handle on what it's doing.
Btw, are you going to RD's D/D bake-off? It's a shame that a fully fettled KAB 1210 won't be there to represent the Techy at its best.
Marco.
The 90's opening up almost by the hour - it was a little flat and 'grey' to start with but it's getting looser, more free with musical nuance and expression now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Can't make RD's bake-off unfortunately - and like you say it's a shame there'll be no KAB there. Still, I'm sure the guys'll have fun. :)
Nice one, Richard. I do like the 'business-like' look of NVA gear and RD's approach (in most ways) to audio. Someday I must get a listen to his designs.
Marco.
As of today...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...1/IMG_2716.jpg
That'll start a few chins wagging :scratch:
Haha, it must be an optical illusion, mate! :lol:
Marco.
Do you feel wobbly all over ? ;)
I made sure I put up a few crucifixes (or whatever you do when you invite the devil round) up before I brought it home. :D
It's a comparison I've been itching to do for ages.
And? Stop being such a teasing biatch... :lolsign:
Marco.
All in good time young Skywalker. :smoking:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
As to the Sondek's spec (so folk get an idea of the playing field here)...
1994 vintage LP12
Lingo 1
Trampolin
Cirkus
Akito B
I've popped my MC15 Super into the arm as I know the Akito doesn't really like the 103, and the MC15's a cracking cartridge (it's the Mk1 with boron cantilever etc).
I'm expecting something along the lines of: "good in its own way, but a different flavour from the 1210".
I know what I think. I did the comparison about 8 months ago, just to make sure I could write with authority on the subject ;)
However that was with a fully KAB-modifed 1210 and a slightly higher specified LP12.
Marco.
Absolutely, and the very reason I too want to do this aswell, to lay to rest some of my own suspicions/thoughts on the whole subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
The LP12's actually from work - borrowed it for a few weeks as it hardly ever gets used. It'll be fun. :)
I'll look forward to reading your thoughts, Richard :)
Marco.
Hey Richard, how are you getting on with the old 'fruit box'? Are you selling your 1210, then? ;)
Marco.
Ye Olde Fruite Boxe is sounding very good indeed - I tried to fit the 103 into the Akito yesterday but it's too wide for the headhsell. :scratch: Trouble is I don't like the MC15 in the PL71 - it's a bit too bright & breezy (although admittedly a very fast and entertaining old thing) to be honest. Not had much chance to do a proper lengthy comparison yet but hopefully will get a chance this week some time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
The Beresford's working well though and doing the business very nicely...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...1/IMG_2735.jpg
It'll go in with some 'gentle persuasion' - I've done it before, but we're talking a less than ideal installation with the cartridge wires all squashed up to buggery! :eyebrows:Quote:
I tried to fit the 103 into the Akito yesterday but it's too wide for the headhsell :scratch:
I wouldn't bother though because the DL-103 will not work properly on an Akito - a) it doesn't have enough mass either in the armtube or the headshell (and adding weight to the headshell with coins, Blu-Tac, or whatever, only works to an extent but is by no means a panacea) and b) there is an upper-mid resonance peak on Linn arms (the Akito is no exception) which exacerbates the 103's already prominent midrange emphasis and slight graininess, making for a rather 'brightly-lit', in-your-face, presentation which is fatiguing in the extreme.
Of course the extent of this effect will vary from system to system but rest assured you're not missing much! The 103 is a far better match for the arm and headshell on your Pioneer, where it should perform extremely well.
I noticed that you mentioned over on pfm about the speed stability issues and 'wavering' on the likes of solo piano I hear all too easily with the LP12 and other similar low-mass belt-drive T/Ts, and which now my ears are attuned to the effect, I find extremely irritating. From my point of view, this alone would be sufficient reason never again to go down the low-mass BD route, regardless of any other 'charm' LP12s and such like may possess.
Marco.
Akito? YUCH!!!!!!!
Sincere apologies folks...
Hey Gromit, when you have spare funds, why not try the Jelco like the one Marco is using. I reckon it would fit a Linn arm hole unless it's Rega length of course.. I still think the 103 bass weight would upset the LP12 though. An At33PTG would be much better as long as you have a decent external play-weight gauge...
Hi Dave - the LP12's not mine so I can't really go around fitting new arms to it unfortunately.
Still, as it stands it does give me a good idea about where it stands sonically vs the PL71 - the fundamental character of the turntable still comes through. In fact I've spent a couple of hours this morning flitting between the two of them. I should (try to!) qualify my findings a bit first...
The LP12 was serviced approx 18 months ago by a Linn dealer (who gave it a 100% clean bill of health) and has had light use throughout its life. That's to ward off the 'well it didn't sound as good as it should because it needs a service' crew ;)
The Akito, love it or hate it (I don't mind it but appreciate there's better) is an arm designed to be used on the Sondek so should work. Both TT's are used on my Audiotech table.
So far...I've been putting the MC15 into the PL71 to keep the playing field as level as possible. I don't like it in the Pioneer but felt it only fair to do so for reasons of comparison-making...
The Linn vs the Pioneer: The PL71 is slightly softer but actually hits a good deal harder than the LP12, it's also more extended with less glare at the top end. It sounds hugely wider in soundstage terms aswell and drags more detail out of the grooves at the extremes of left & right. The PL71's bass is in another league - it's faster, gutsier, more focussed, with more fundamental pitch coherence and less bloom.
Downsides to the Pioneer are that it's possibly less clear through the midrange, slightly mushy perhaps, where the Linn has more cut to its sound. To counter this the PL71 has much better decay and resonance behaviour, especially on sustained piano chords which ring on for longer and with more definite feeling of space.
The biggest surprise (and this is where I thought the Linn would win out) is that the Pioneer simply has more groove, being funkier and more 'on it'. Listening to some Bob Florence Big Band lp's this morning the Linn didn't seem to want to play ball, comparatively, where the Pioneer just lets rip with the full force of a great big band in full flow. Put the 103 back in to the Pioneer and the gap just widens further. The Linn also didn't encourage me to turn the wick up as it tends to 'shout' when the going gets heavy - the Pioneer seems to deal with musical climaxes (and heavily scored music) without getting flustered and just seems to have more headroom.
So there you have it....in my opinion of course. :)
I think you have the Direct Drive/ Rubber Drive thing in a nutshell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gromit
Yup, ironic that the DD beats the Linn at it's own game...despite what the marketing would have you believe.
Absolutely Pete - if only we could have conducted some blind test between the LP12 and something akin to the PL71 back in the early 80's.:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by i_should_coco
Forgot to mention the music I used during this little bake-off...
Al Jarreau - High Crime. Hefty bass synth which can easily catch out a poor turntable. Some superb vocal scat by AJ balanced by a couple of great ballads - 'After All' is particularly gorgeous. On the LP12 it was all very much in place but on the Pioneer it was a real event and something to savour.
Ravel/Perlemuter - Record One (of 3) of the Nimbus recordings. 'Le Gibet' is the killer here with much piano sustain recorded in a distant-mic'd natural acoustic. Such a shame they don't make records like this any more.
Eurhythmics - 'Conditioned Soul' from the Be Yourself Tonight album.
Grace Jones - 'Walking in the Rain' and 'Pull up to the bumper' from Nightclubbing.
Hi Richard,Quote:
The biggest surprise (and this is where I thought the Linn would win out) is that the Pioneer simply has more groove, being funkier and more 'on it'. Listening to some Bob Florence Big Band lp's this morning the Linn didn't seem to want to play ball, comparatively, where the Pioneer just lets rip with the full force of a great big band in full flow. Put the 103 back in to the Pioneer and the gap just widens further. The Linn also didn't encourage me to turn the wick up as it tends to 'shout' when the going gets heavy - the Pioneer seems to deal with musical climaxes (and heavily scored music) without getting flustered and just seems to have more headroom.
I concur fully with your observations; they match mine anytime I compare a low-mass BD deck like the LP12 to my modified 1210.
Hey, at least you *know* for sure now that your decision to abandon BDs and go direct-drive with the PL-71 was the right one. I salute your thoroughness, sir! :cool:
Marco.
Sadly, that did happen although the DD contender back then was the UK made (Japanese mech) JBE III Slate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gromit
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...d/JBESlate.jpg
It was preferred by a group of listeners used in one of the magazines, there was uproar among the Linn selling advertisers and the conclusions were somehow re-written or subsequently dismissed. Presumably JBE had trouble finding stockists and closed not long afterwards. Someone like Howard or DSJR would probably remember this better. ( I only read the magazines about this 2 or 3 years after the event)
Interesting design though. Slate plinth, direct drive mech. Not much new under the sun even 25 years later!
It's stories like that, and the problems that companies with better designs like Pink Triangle, Dais & Townshend (amongst others) had gaining a foothold that irk people. More because progress was hindered while people swallowed the 'tune playing' nonsense for too long.
Dave, the Jelco does indeed use a Linn-type fitting. As good an arm as it is though, I'm not sure that I'd want to 'vandalise' a lovely classic deck like the PL-71 by replacing the (pretty respectable) stock arm with a Jelco or anything else...Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
Classic T/Ts should really be enjoyed and used as they are :)
Marco.
I'm glad that I was too young then and missed most of that shit when getting into hi-fi. I doubt though that my thoughts and decision making would have been so easily influenced and manipulated.Quote:
It was preferred by a group of listeners used in one of the magazines, there was uproar among the Linn selling advertisers and the conclusions were somehow re-written or subsequently dismissed...
I just wish the Internet (and forums like this) had been around in those days. The less-brainwashed then could have exposed these charlatans for the w*nkers they were and (perhaps) then the outcome would have been different.
Never truer words were said!Quote:
It's stories like that, and the problems that companies with better designs like Pink Triangle, Dais & Townshend (amongst others) had gaining a foothold that irk people. More because progress was hindered while people swallowed the 'tune playing' nonsense for too long.
Marco.
Very nice, Guy. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by pure sound
One thing I do remember was back in Sept 79 (as a spotty 14 yr old who'd just got his first ever hifi system) University Audio in Cambridge organised a hifi show where one room was given over to a Linn-fronted system. Also present in that room alongside the LP12 (fitted with Mission 774 arm/773 cartridge) was a JBE with SME III like the one in your pic. They'd promised a 'Linn/JBE shoot-out' during the show. I'd just started to be slightly aware of the fact that Linn were obviously feeling slightly threatened here - how could someone have the audacity to actually put their product up against their baby?
Strangely enough, that Linn vs JBE shoot-out never happened - AFAIR the JBE sat there and didn't turn even one revolution all weekend.
to be fair, by the early to mid 80's the fabulous but expensive Goldmund Studio had appeared and was also accepted by many (elsewhere in the world) as being a serious step up from the LP12 and its ilk.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...nd/gstudio.jpg
Hahahaha... Guy wins this month's 'Snappy' award for gross underestimation! :lol:Quote:
to be fair, by the early to mid 80's the fabulous but expensive Goldmund Studio had appeared and was also accepted by many (elsewhere in the world) as being a serious step up from the LP12 and its ilk.
More like replacing "a serious step up" with "in a different league"!!
Marco.
Marco, I was suggesting that Gromit replaced that awful arm on his LP12! Heaven forbid that the PL71 gets vandalised ;)
The JBE was a very good deck at the time. We sold a good few with Mayware arms and Sonus Blue cartridges, the combination sounding very effective as I remember. The LP12/Grace 707/Supex sounded a bit "sexier" but ultimately wasn't as faithful to the source (when was ever any different where the Lp12 is concerned?).
Ah, my mistake, Dave - apologies :)
I did like some of those early Grace/Supex LP12s, though. IMO, if you're going to have a coloured sound you may as well make it a 'sexy' one. How much of the 'sexiness' though do you think was due to the Supex cartridge?
Today's Cirkus/Lingo/Keel modified LP12s, whilst still coloured in the extreme, are about as 'sexy' an experience as having a red-hot 9" nail shoved up your bell-end! :eyebrows:
Marco.
The Goldmund was a Pierre Lurne design and in time an almost identical TT was released as Pierre's first TT. Nice deck and much better than the later Romance TT ( Romeo uni-pivot arm)which was very fragile as a design. It looked a bit like an oil rig and had pontoons for feet. However these were to heavy for the support struts. If lifted wrongly they cracked or broke. Still it was a nice TT sound wise at least.
My previous employer was the distributor for this brand and his CDP's were very good but sadly came with rubbish packaging, breakages due to transport damage were common. Pierre's gone back to analogue in the last year or so, but I have not heard ( his new arm and motor unit) it, so can offer no comment.
I once heard a shoot out at a Dublin show between a Linn Lp 12 and A Naim Lp 12. I much preferred the sound of the Naim Lp 12 but if I had a choice neither would be my first choice. However in saying that I re-built an Lp 12 a few months before loosing my job and after re-setting it up it was by far the best Lp12 I had heard and my boss agreed. So that issue with the soggy bass can be sorted.
Talking of old TT's I just loved the Voyd sound. Valdi or Voyd ref etc. these worked amazingly well with Audio Innovations amps,Rata Toryelite stand, Snell Speakers, Pirate stands and Audio Note cabling. Those were the days. " Wheres the ----- bass " PQ.
I still own an AI s 500 amp and a set of AI mk3 s 1000 mono amps, very nice indeed.
Regards D S D L---- Neil :)
I met PL a few times. Lovely chap & very clever. I was amused when he told me that the Goldmund Ref was more an engineering showpiece & that the Studio was still the one to have!