Hello

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barry

Hello Steve,

To be honest I can't really say. The RB250 is a well regarded arm and has good bearings but I have no experience of using a Decca in one.

Sorry, I'm unable to offer you any advice on this.

Regards

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I have almost no experience of Deccas, but some of the times I have heard them have included the use of The Rock - including 2 demos by Max Townsend himself (who couldn't have been more enthusiastic about Deccas if he'd tried). I may be wrong, but I'd think that arm combination would be fine with the Rock's trough in place, surely any nasties are going to be sorted with that?

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Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo

I have almost no experience of Deccas, but some of the times I have heard them have included the use of The Rock - including 2 demos by Max Townsend himself (who couldn't have been more enthusiastic about Deccas if he'd tried). I may be wrong, but I'd think that arm combination would be fine with the Rock's trough in place, surely any nasties are going to be sorted with that?

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Hi Chris,

Does the Rock come fitted with a Rega arm as standard, and does the headshell of the Rega arm engage with the damping trough? If it does, then that would seem to offer a workable environment for the Decca.

I'd forgotten that Max Townsend was a Decca enthusiast.

Regards

At the time I'm talking of, it came without arm, but the Regas were commonly sold with them if you couldn't afford the Excaliber. You got an adapter plate that had the paddle on one end. This was bolted to the headshell with the cartridge.

I believe the latest version of the Rock has a Rega based arm on it (but modified almost beyond recognition).

http://townshendaudio.com/home/image...dexcalibur.jpg

This is an adapter on a Rega, all mounted on a recent Rock. The old adapter only had one layer.

http://www.audioelevation.co.uk/user...7%20trough.jpg

I think the Rock with a suitably damped arm (the front trough arrangement on the Rock is the best there is in that respect) would be a superb partner for a Decca.

I'm not the biggest fan of Rega tonearms, but there are other variables at play in this instance which I supect will overcome its sonic limitations.

Regarding the Rock's Rega-modified tonearm, it looks more like Fireball XL5!





Or an Eagle from Space 1999:


http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/3509/space1999sm.jpg



http://townshendaudio.com/home/image...dexcalibur.jpg

WOOOSSSHHH!! :eyebrows:

Marco.

I am hanging out for an excalibur, I have the paddle arrangement for my RB250, I must post pics up somewhere I really must take some first though.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Hi Dave,



Indeed. Neither is there much point when the vinyl concerned has been cut from a digital master, so all you're doing is reproducing that information by adding more distortion!

Vinyl does come into its own though, sonically, when recordings have been made from an analogue master and most of the recording chain is analogue-based.



Yup, I'd go with that, but there are other differences too, as I outlined in my previous post.



I mostly agree. There are some genuinely superb hi-end cartridges out there, which get you closer to 'the truth', but by and large most flatter to decieve, where one can achieve the same performance (or indeed sometimes better) from a cartridge with a less 'desirable badge', and in turn less exorbitant price tag.

However, I disagree with your "what wire was used in the cutting head?" remark. It's not about replicating the ancillaries used in the recording studio; it's about faithfully replicating their sonic effect on music reproduced. Therefore whatever wires, silver or otherwise, best achieve that, in conjunction with the overall sonic accuracy of the cartridge, in a system, is by definition the 'best wire'. *That* is what hi-fi is about.



You're entitled to your opinion, Dave, and I understand where you're coming from, but from considerable experience of using 103s in a multitude of set-ups, I totally disagree.

The fact is, both Denon's own SUTs (designed to partner the 103) and the A23, load it at 100 Ohms (or just over), so if that
wasn't the optimal setting, it wouldn't be used on those units, plain and simple.

Also, experience tells me that where SUTs are concerned one cannot get too bogged down with 'correct' impedance figures, as the rule books often go out the window when the acid listening tests are carried out.

A valid case in point is the original Ortofon SPU transformer Barry has loaned me for my SPU, that according to calculations, doesn't load the cartridge with anything like the impedance value which is technically optimal, according to the spec. Barry will be able to elaborate further and explain better here than I can.

And yet the transformer sounds fantastic with the SPU - and not because it's tailoring the sound in any way, but merely voicing it correctly to optimise its sonic characteristics!



Hehehe... Aye! ;)

Marco.

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Late reply marco, but I think you (and I a little) have pretty well sewn it up regarding the 103/AT mc differences and it really is a matter of taste as to which one may prefer. I still reckon that a well sorted Decca may have the best of both, but they are cussed things (certainly the standard "Decca London" based ones, deccapodded or not) and need careful treatment if coils aren't to come loose etc. My own sounded wonderful and suddenly went "off," guitar and sustained keyboard notes having a background "buzz" to them. I thought it was the Mentor arm and this was a catalyst in selling the whole turntable, but sixteen years or more on, it was the Decca doing the nasties that Decca's can, and back then, the experts on restoring them were rather hidden and the current Jubilee and Reference hadn't appeared as I remember..

Hi Dave,

I think you've done more than your fair share too of nailing the differences between those respective cartridges, and you've done it very well :)

However, it was the following bit I was more interested in what you thought:

Quote:

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However, I disagree with your "what wire was used in the cutting head?" remark. It's not about replicating the ancillaries used in the recording studio; it's about faithfully replicating their sonic effect on music reproduced. Therefore whatever wires, silver or otherwise, best achieve that, in conjunction with the overall sonic accuracy of the cartridge, in a system, is by definition the 'best wire'. *That* is what hi-fi is about.

You're entitled to your opinion, Dave, and I understand where you're coming from, but from considerable experience of using 103s in a multitude of set-ups, I totally disagree.

The fact is, both Denon's own SUTs (designed to partner the 103) and the A23, load it at 100 Ohms (or just over), so if that
wasn't the optimal setting, it wouldn't be used on those units, plain and simple.

Also, experience tells me that where SUTs are concerned one cannot get too bogged down with 'correct' impedance figures, as the rule books often go out the window when the acid listening tests are carried out.

A valid case in point is the original Ortofon SPU transformer Barry has loaned me for my SPU, that according to calculations, doesn't load the cartridge with anything like the impedance value which is technically optimal, according to the spec. Barry will be able to elaborate further and explain better here than I can.

And yet the transformer sounds fantastic with the SPU - and not because it's tailoring the sound in any way, but merely voicing it correctly to optimise its sonic characteristics!

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Therefore, I'd appreciate your views on the points I've made above :cool:

Marco.

Fireball XL5 indeed :D I left my toddlerhood behind watching that on our first TV (OK, I have a few bought videos too with my heart set on the "B&W Box Set" of DVD's at some point.....).

I'm not sure I can anser or comment much on your findings. If the cartridge has an output impedance of 40 Ohms, than it would be naturally assumed to need 400 - 500 Ohms on the input impedance to "properly match" it. However, there may be other things going on which dictate 100 Ohms or so, but I don't have the means to test my shaky theory ;)

All I can add is that many old MM's seem to work better with a different loading to the regular 47K, rather than just slapping loads of capacitance on them. Lower caste Decca's (yes, them things again) seem to like 39K as I remember and I suspect the Quad 33's choice of 68K wasn't done just to be awkward, as it may flatten out some of the "sucked out" cartridges of that era (I'm thinking of my B&O SP12, the Empire 999/1000 series and the 681EEE I have, rather than Shures, which NEEDED tons of capacitance back then, or ADC's which are pretty neutral mostly.

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Originally Posted by Barry

Hello Roger,

Just to say, that no rudeness or sarcasm was intended: I was just following up your recent posts here:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...t=6462&page=10 (post 91)

and on ‘pinkfishmedia’:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/s....php?p=1107718 ,

the latter, which incidentally, was answered in a similar manner by ‘hi-fi dave’.

You clearly have an excellent turntable and arm(s), so to answer your query concerning the Lyra Delos cartridge: this has a coil resistance of 8.2Ω, so either of the ‘4’ or ‘15’ settings on ‘The Head’ SUT ought to be suitable.

http://www.lyraconnoisseur.com/Produ...os/Delos4.html

There are no hard and fast rules here; the use of SUTs is a bit of a grey area, so try both settings and see which you prefer. In general moving coil cartridges like to be loaded with at least 10x their coil resistance.





In future, if you could be a little less demanding, then these ‘misunderstandings’ might not occur.

Regards

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On PFM, I did start to reply but was met with a touch of abrasiveness which deterred me from posting further.

Barry
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/i...718_101146.jpg

As you can see I have now mounted the Xenon arm on my SP10 with the AT33PTG cartridge.

This has demonstrated the qualities of the SP10 v the Lenco G99, and then I tried the AT33PTG through the TX4 SUT.

I tried all three settings 40/15/4 Ohms, the 40 sounded a bit lifeless and both the 15 & 4 Ohm both worked well and in the end I settled on the 4 Ohm.

It states that the coil impedance of this cart is 17 Ohm so I would have expected the 15 Ohm to be better, but the 4 Ohm setting gave the music loads of drive. Currently listening to Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique and with all this attack can't wait to sample a Mahler symphony.

Not sure how the rules on SUTs work, and why I should prefer the 4 Ohm setting?

Thanks

Roger