Turntable...decisions oh decisions.

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Originally Posted by selby

Never thought this would be such a topic of debate!

So confused...think if a 1210 in good condition came my way I'd have to try it with the basic tweaks!

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I often "rent" things from ebay. If you buy a techie and don't like it you can always sell it on. It is, and is likely to remain for the foreseeable future, readily tradeable. So what have you got to lose. The same would apply to something like a Rega RP3 or variants.

However, once you start modifying, your money is fast going for good - never to be seen again. This applies to turntables, cars, boats, model helicopters - you name it. If you spend £2000 pimping the turntable, you are very unlikely to get anything like that back when you sell it, unless maybe on here you find someone convinced they want to go for just that. By contrast if you spend £250 on a techie, are not sure, buy say a Gyrodeck 2nd hand for £750, and don't like it - you are likely to be able to sell that Gyrodeck for pretty much what you paid for it.

I haven't heard a fully kitted Techie. I suspect actually, heresy as this is for a PT boy to admit, the dear old turntable is less important than I used to believe. Isolation and termination (the mat) seem to be the main influences (given the standard "spec" items of speed stability, and low noise - wow& flutter and rumble are met)

If I look back, I am forced to wonder just what anyone thought was so special about the LP12. Its sound was defined by its boinging sub-chassis and felt mat. By contrast (see the thread about "I discovered something about myself") the radical switch to an acrylic platter on the PT made a wonderful (or shocking depending on your perspective) difference. I now see this because until the months when I jumped in with my own cash, LP12's would almost always have partnered good arms. As standard was the Ittok which was not bad. I think much of the "up" from ordinary TT's (PL12, Dual 505, and a dozen or more Sony, Panasonic and the like "top" domestic tt's - of which the techie was just another) was the arm. So Linn launched a standard techie, PL12 etc type arm to make their TT's affordable - I bought one - the LV-V, and there was nothing special about an LP12 except for it's felt mat. Fortunately I stuck mine on a PT instead, and got the benefit of a genuinely different turntable.

Long ramble. Conclusion is - consider "renting" from ebay, if you can't audition direct. Bear in mind if you upgrade by upgrading to standard products - you will pretty much get your money back. If you upgrade by modifiying you are much less likely to. ;)

PS: that is you will not lose money up-grading standard products bought 2nd hand. If you buy new - and you get the benefit of being able to go and audition new products - then they lose 40% in value as you walk out the shop door :doh:

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Originally Posted by Oldpinkman

I often "rent" things from ebay. If you buy a techie and don't like it you can always sell it on. It is, and is likely to remain for the foreseeable future, readily tradeable. So what have you got to lose. The same would apply to something like a Rega RP3 or variants.

However, once you start modifying, your money is fast going for good - never to be seen again. This applies to turntables, cars, boats, model helicopters - you name it. If you spend £2000 pimping the turntable, you are very unlikely to get anything like that back when you sell it, unless maybe on here you find someone convinced they want to go for just that. By contrast if you spend £250 on a techie, are not sure, buy say a Gyrodeck 2nd hand for £750, and don't like it - you are likely to be able to sell that Gyrodeck for pretty much what you paid for it.

I haven't heard a fully kitted Techie. I suspect actually, heresy as this is for a PT boy to admit, the dear old turntable is less important than I used to believe. Isolation and termination (the mat) seem to be the main influences (given the standard "spec" items of speed stability, and low noise - wow& flutter and rumble are met)

If I look back, I am forced to wonder just what anyone thought was so special about the LP12. Its sound was defined by its boinging sub-chassis and felt mat. By contrast (see the thread about "I discovered something about myself") the radical switch to an acrylic platter on the PT made a wonderful (or shocking depending on your perspective) difference. I now see this because until the months when I jumped in with my own cash, LP12's would almost always have partnered good arms. As standard was the Ittok which was not bad. I think much of the "up" from ordinary TT's (PL12, Dual 505, and a dozen or more Sony, Panasonic and the like "top" domestic tt's - of which the techie was just another) was the arm. So Linn launched a standard techie, PL12 etc type arm to make their TT's affordable - I bought one - the LV-V, and there was nothing special about an LP12 except for it's felt mat. Fortunately I stuck mine on a PT instead, and got the benefit of a genuinely different turntable.

Long ramble. Conclusion is - consider "renting" from ebay, if you can't audition direct. Bear in mind if you upgrade by upgrading to standard products - you will pretty much get your money back. If you upgrade by modifiying you are much less likely to. ;)

PS: that is you will not lose money up-grading standard products bought 2nd hand. If you buy new - and you get the benefit of being able to go and audition new products - then they lose 40% in value as you walk out the shop door :doh:

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Long Ramble but very sensible advice Richard. An accurate perspective on the LP12 - No wonder many ex owners are impressed by Technics. I would add that a modded Technics is likely worth much more if you return to standard and sell of the mod components separately on this forum. However demand for the more esoteric upgrades is extremely limited. Mitchell decks are a good buy as they hold their value extremely well. I would add Notts Analogue tend to loose a lot more value initially which can make them a bargain when they occasionally show up. Any really high end (price wise) decks will take a big hit but that could make them a good used buy providing they make a significant improvement over Mitchell or Notts Analogue.

I have heard only a few mega expensive decks that make a significant improvement over the above brands rather than sounding different. Otherwise for inexpensive 'vintage' designs I would suggest Systemdek IIX, Heybrook TT2, AR (ES1 or EB101) or Thorens TD160S. All these can be bought on ebay and sold on without a financial penalty as long as you don't get into a bidding war.

Paul.

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Originally Posted by Oldpinkman

If I look back, I am forced to wonder just what anyone thought was so special about the LP12. Its sound was defined by its boinging sub-chassis and felt mat.

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About 30 years ago I decided to buy a new "Super Deck". Led enthusiastically by the magazine reviews, I went out and auditioned the LP12, Logic DM101, and the Pink Triangle. The Logic was pretty good (if ugly), but there was no way that I could buy something so shoddily built as the Pink Triangle (it was a truly dreadful thing to behold and did not sound very special in the dem); however the LP12 was as good as the Logic, at the same price point, but with excellent quality and looks, which is why I bought one with Ittok LVII and A&R P77 cartridge. People seem to forget that the LP12 brought a level of quality and service to the market that, ultimately and IMO, improved the audio industry. The critical point here, and relevant to this thread, is the importance of hearing and listening - I was very happy with my LP12; and if I had only understood how to set it up properly, I might never have sold it and then saved myself many thousands of pounds in senseless upgrades. I am saddened by the constant sneering at Linn and the LP12 on forums such as this - my LP12 brought music and something approaching an understanding of music to my life. My TD-124 does that too, but at a not inconsiderable cost (rather less than a fully pimped Technics, of course;)).

We all have different auditory systems and tastes, so all that matters is the listening. That's why there's still room for good dealers in this world who can guide a buyer towards a good selection of gear and provide a home dem too. The OP mentioned ease of use and not wanting vinyl playback to be a chore, but the music has to tickle the appropriate spot, so there's much to be said for getting a home dem of new or old gear to work out what can deliver ease of use and musical satisfaction. A Technics certainly delivers ease of use out of the box.

I still reckon that a PL-71 would be a sound bet, should one come up for sale.

If your having problems finding something you like on the bay, try www.hififorsale.com they have a reasonable reputation, but I have not bought anything from the site myself, maybe others can advise.

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Originally Posted by selby

Been looking on eBay but really don't want one from a spotty teenager who's been attempting to be FatBoy Slim.

So of anyone has a tidy one for sensible money let me know, or to be fair any tidy suitable TT that would be suitable.

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Was Audio Al selling (from this very site) a couple l believe?

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Originally Posted by Oldpinkman

I should qualify "low-fi" before I am mobbed. I didn't mean rubbish. I just meant like a very good ordinary record player. By that I mean friends, family, and recently a wife who say "I know what records sound like - never as good as CD" and then listen to "HiFi" and go "oh my God - I just never thought records could sound that good". The Techie is OK - but sounded like any number of Sony or Pioneer or Micro Seiki or other good japanese decks (and even some "hifi" from my earlier era (dual 505, Pioneer PL12d etc) which were good - but not "oh wow". That sort of low-fi. I would say as in nothing like a PT anni with a Helius Orion arm, or heaven forbid, an LP12 and all the trimmings, but how about , as in not like a Techie, with mike new bearing and PSU, fancy feet, funk platter, Dynavector DV-507 and god knows what else pimping. That sort of low-fi.

Phew :)

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My main experience is of the earlier SL150 and SL1500 series 1 non-quartz models. OK ok, I appreciate that visuals are the only thing really tieing the two models together, but I should say this if I may -

The SL1500 used 'raw' isn't really very good sounding. ISOLATION/support and feet tinkering, removing the lid when playing and a more sympathetic mat make a heck of a sonic improvement. Lo-fi it certainly ain't with a few cheap tweaks. It'd take a little more work, but I suspect the earlier SL110 and SL120 could do the same, although the structures were very 'live' and resonant in stock form.

The SL1200mk2 onwards had numerous improvements as I recall. Damped platter and plinth, a pretty well state of the art drive (Rega, Pro-ject and even Linn would kill to have something that good for the price (Ivor told me personally the LP12 could have been direct drive in a different life)) and a low mass tonearm with great bearings. To lift the performance, a simple mat and foot change should do to start with (take the lid off when playing) and not cost a fortune. All the other 'stuff' is as much to do with third parties making a fast buck on 'upgrades' as much as small incremental sonic upgrades. Thing is, many of you guys can afford it, so this becomes self-serving and I don't doubt that the more you spend on these bigger changes, the more capable the basic drive and plinth system becomes. You can end up spending a good few grand though...

P.S. My last SL1500 sounded fab with a cork mat and Supex 900E cartridge in a current Techie headshell. My fascination with Garrards and Lenco's took over so the techie was sold, but I'm still very fond of this model - no speed hunting/dynamic wow and a heavier tonearm perfect for current cartridges if the bearings are ok (some aren't and need adjusting).

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Originally Posted by Tarzan

Was Audio Al selling (from this very site) a couple l believe?

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Yes , I have 2 SL1210 MK11 available :)

Audio Al - ping me a PM regarding one of your 1210

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Originally Posted by Shuggie

I am saddened by the constant sneering at Linn and the LP12 on forums such as this - my LP12 brought music and something approaching an understanding of music to my life.

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For what it's worth, I quite agree. Yes the whole hype and way it was rammed down people's throats as the only turntable you could possibly have back in the 1980s was quite saddening and caused a good deal of worthwhile alternatives to fall by the wayside, simply because they had the wrong badge. Equally, I don't believe it is the best turntable in the world, nor was it ever.

However, it's a British success story, it's well made and there are a myriad of tweaks that you can make to it to take the sound in pretty much whatever direction you like. Yes it needs to be set up carefully (but equally, this isn't the mystical and hideously complicated process many would have you believe!) but, ultimately, get it right and it makes some damn nice noises.

Cut the old fella some slack!

Just for the record, I loved the sound that my LP12 gave me for 9yrs, but I was made an offer that I could not refuse.

In no way was I knocking the Linn and even enjoyed the set up process, which in fairness did need to be done a little too often.

Other wise I agree with Beobloke's comments totally.