Shure M3D - yet another truly great classic cartridge

Guys

I had my hearing tested a few months ago at Torquay Hospital. There is nothing remarkable about me, I'm in my middle 50's and could easily hear 16Khz. But that is not the point:

If an electronic device rolls of at say 15Khz, then way before that there might be phase distortions that could be audible. Also its response to transients could be badly affected. I routinely test phono stages to 32Khz (it's a easy figure for my test gear) and my favourite cartridges the AT-OC9ML/II and Shelter 501 II both go up to 50Khz. When I ran a SL-1200 with an OC9 using Alex's A.N.T. MC Ltd phono stage and his prototype headphone amplifier at the Heathrow Show a month back, OK with a pair of £900 Denon headphones, a lot of people said it was the best sound of the show. :kiss:

But the above is of importance for "me" and the music "I" like. Marco and I have quite different tastes and we have both learnt from that. What suites Marco doesn't quite suit me, and visa versa. For both of us this was a big and steep learning curve. Personally I like " über-transparent forensic detail retrieval devices " they deal with female voices spectacularly well in my opinion. But I know where Marco is coming from.

I'm sure when Marco says " *THAT* is what true 'high fidelity' is all about! " he is expressing his own opinion based on his own tastes?

But there is now a quest, to keep Marco on song, what is the modern cartridge that would get him singing and toe tapping, could it be this one click here to see it ? Maybe I should get one for him to borrow? Maybe I would be converted?

:bag:

Regards

Dave

Good post, Dave - I'm with you 100%, even though I may not entirely agree, if you see what I mean :)

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I'm sure when Marco says " *THAT* is what true 'high fidelity' is all about! " he is expressing his own opinion based on his own tastes?

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Absolutely. It's clear that we value slightly different things when listening to music. For me if a cartridge doesn't get it right, musically, in what I call the 'meat and bones' of the audible range, then it matters not a jot what's happening in frequencies which are barely audible, even if as Barry and you correctly say, there is a knock-on effect further down the range where it can be heard on subtle aspects of the music. Basically, if (appropriate) music doesn't sound 'funky' or fails to 'boogie' then I'm not interested. My hi-fi system or the cartridge I use isn't some scientific tool for the analysing of detail - it's a device for listening to music!

This is what I feel is missing with modern moving coils such as the OC-9. Whilst it 'measures like a dream', and I greatly respect what it does in a hi-fi sense, it's rather too 'polite' sounding, lacking the 'soul' which a 103, SPU or the M3D has in spades - the latter despite having a curtailed high frequency response. Note that I'm not saying that these characteristics are somehow magically superimposed on the music by any of those cartridges, but rather that they simply reveal them more when present on the record. And incidentally, I don't hear anything an OC-9 does with female vocals which a 103SA can't ;)

When I listen to music, I don't want to just sit there nodding in polite approval respecting what a cartridge does to music in a technical sense; I want the way it presents music to make me feel like partying: it's that 'fun/feel good factor' - the sensation where music instantly puts a smile on your face, and before you know it hours have passed and there are 100s of album covers scattered across the floor... :gig:

Do you know what I mean? It's all subjective of course, so difficult to explain.

Most modern pick-ups I've heard, at any price, fail to engage me in that way... It's as if in the quest to tick all the hi-fi boxes some 'magic' has been lost in the process which is fundamental to portraying the passion and soul in music, rather like the way in which a good valve amp treats music in comparison to its equivalent solid-state counterpart. Often the latter is 'technically superior' in a hi-fi sense, whilst the former despite that is still somehow more musically satisfying. It's a similar type of difference between the classic cartridges I've mentioned and the likes of an OC-9. In effect, 'musicality' has been traded in favour of analysis. If that's your bag, then fine, but it's not for me. Hi-fi is all about choosing your compromises, anyway.

For me though, it's a real wake-up call listening to some of the classic cartridge designs from the 50s and 60s and comparing them to today's examples. I think that somewhere along the line designers have lost focus a little and taken their eye off the ball. What is most striking is the complete sea change in the type of sonic presentation or 'tone' favoured by manufacturers today and offered by their components, and I don't just mean cartridges. It applies to almost all areas of the replay chain, even recordings themselves! It makes one wonder how much real progress has been made since the heyday of stereo vinyl replay outside of striving for a notion of absolute 'accuracy' and the clinical style of presentation that often goes with it...

Marco.

Meanwhile, here's some interesting discussion on the M3D from the Vinyl Asylum archive:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vin...73/734572.html

My observations tally pretty much with that of the author "HOK".


Other notable comments:

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"Hyped as the first stereo phono cartridge in many ads, which is very dubious, this is a capable performer. Considering it is from the late '50s, and popular into the '70s, it has received significant attention in the past few years. Checking on the bay, these have fetched $100. for over a year. Get yours as soon as possible, as the price keeps climbing. Remember, it is not simply a rare, early stereo offering that makes it's value. It's sonics earn it's value. There are more than a few overseas buyers, continuously bidding on any of these listed on the bay."

"I can see why there is still a demand for these. They sound just plain good. Neither of the modern cartridges I've been using can touch the bass response of the M3D."

"Being ancient myself, I can remember when that was a top Shure cartridge, in fact the top of the line if I remember correctly. I just couldn't afford it and settled for the M7/N21D. I did hear the M3D a number of times around 1960 and remember it being very good."

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Some more pics: http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...3-04-06202.jpg / http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...3-04-06238.jpg


And from pink fish:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/a...p/t-26254.html

Note this comment in particular:

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I was just browsing through an old mag this morning and came across an article on the V15 models and it mentioned the M3D in passing. Seems it was introduced in 1958 and was the world's first stereo moving magnet cartridge. Sold for £18 new in 1962, same price as an Ortofon SPU or an SME3009 arm ... that's a lot of money.

It'd explain the high ebay price. A collectors piece I'd guess.

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The M3D is undoubtedly in my opinion a veritable 'classic' and deserves to be held in similar reverence as the venerable SPU. The only difference is that the latter has achieved more cult status through greater exposure.

The new stylus has arrived so I'll be fitting it later today and shall report on the results obtained :)

Marco.

Marco, you're making me MAD!!!!! :D I wish I'd kept one at least as a reference... I wonder if the N21 stylus is still available anywhere? This would bring the definition and tracking parameters up to date perhaps?

My hearing is still OK in the mid, but a lifetime of ear infections (living in East Northants for five years killed them) and heavy headphone sessions at times have affected them badly. The BC2's go up well to 14KHz and the Coles sort of extends this (at very low measured level) to 20KHz plus and this suits me fine right now, as the Tinnitus whistles absorb anything else in the upper KHz region. (I can hear what the Coles' are doing, but it's probably more their roll-in point at 10KHz or so).

I'm doing a little exercise of my own with vintage mm cartridges. I love the Decca sound and remember one that had a similar sense of drive, while being high enough compliance for the Dual to handle. If it works out, I'll post some findings...


P.S. I too find the OC9 just a little bit too much apart from when it's used on a fruitbox/Ittok, although I know that bass is a strong point in well fettled SL1200's. My compromise would be the AT33PTG, which has the top end of the OC9, but a bit more power lower down to match. The old OC30 was very similar at the time and I loved it...

SPU's used to suffer horrendously bad tracking, but maybe now, with modern heavy arms, this doesn't happen.

One day, I'll hopefully return to an LP player that will do justice to my Decca Gold Micro scanner. This one entertained, boogied and tracked well, giving a very "master-tape" style of truthfulness as well (I had some good copy-masters to compare it with at the time).

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Originally Posted by Marco

and deserves to be held in similar reverence as the venerable SPU. The only difference is that the latter has achieved more cult status through greater exposure.

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and the fact that they kept making it.

It'll be interesting to hear one of these. Always thought the V15 was a piece of junk. Trackability (their word, I think) substituting for dynamic range.

Load a V15 right and many of the "problems" disappear, honest guv...

What you'll never get from a V15 type cartrdge is the bloom and "analoguey" qualities these old classics add to the musical flavour. That's fine for me, but I do understand it's not for everyone.

My favourite oldies are the ADC's and the Sonus Blue models they spawned (same designer, Peter Pritchard). Neutral but spacious, the ZLM and Sonus Blue (Fine Line tip on the ZLM and Shibata tip on the Sonus). Bass distortion isn't the best, but the mids are sublime and the top sweet if mounted and loaded right.

There's a comment above on the M55E - May I respectfully draw your attention to the 5db suckout at 5-7KHz, followed by a sharp rise into resonance at 15KHz or so. High capacitive loading helps all Shures usually, but the M55E was apparently a V15mk1 by another name.

Hi Marco

What about the cartidge I suggested? Are you up for it?

:bag:

Dave

Hey, Dave, of course I'm up for it! :eyebrows:

As long as it doesn't cost me anything to try ;)

We'll need another SUT to use though, which matches the Ortofon, as its requirements are rather different to the 103 and hence the A23...

Marco.

One of the "Dave's" will get you there in the end Marco and you have three to choose from at least (two of us have been in the industry since the year "dot" ;) )

Oh mammy, daddy, Mary and Joseph... :wow: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :D: :eek: :eek: :champagne::champagne: :mex: :dance: :dance: :fingers: :goodnight:

Marco.