Choosing the 'best' turntable and ignoring 'flavours'

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Originally Posted by Haselsh1

Now look, I could be wrong here but my opinion of the LP12 from what I have heard from others, friends included, is that it is a heavy, ploddy jazz kind of deck with a completely overblown fat and slow sound. Now this may be well out of the truth but it's my impression. By the way, I have heard an LP12 only three times at Hi-Fi shows and my long lasting memory of it was when someone tapped the table it was on and the arm did the skaters waltz.

There must be so much more out there at a reasonable price but I just think these things are so grossly overpriced. Given the profit margin on Hi-Fi there's no way I'm ever gonna buy brand new so I guess I'll just have to keep checking out ebay. Like I said before, I have ages yet.

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For me a good 2nd hand LP12 is one of the great bargains in hifi. I find it difficult to justify the price of a full decknowadays, especially as the Orbe SE is a better deck in my opinion, but 2nd hand they really do get you in to your record collection.

When I sold my deck I had nowhere to put it so I dumped it on the floor. A suspended wooden floor with very wonky floorboards. I played a couple of tracks for the buyer so he could check it out with me walking around the room - I weigh 17 stone and the needle didn't leave the groove once.

I also have Leak Lenco 75 all set for modifying.
As for the best decks ? Well it's a tough one but if I had the time and inclination one of the most musically rewarding decks I've ever heard was a modified Garrard 301 with a Hadcock arm and a cheapo Grado cart on it. Musically it was just so enjoyable and again it made you want to listen to music rather discuss the benefits of hifi flavours. A sublime setup.

It wasn't Linn insisting on everything being tightened until it cracks, it was the self-promoted Guru's, some of whom still practice this 'art'.

I remember a dealer close to me who did just this for a period. I had several LP12's in with faults such as damaged Ittok's where the bolt had been tightened so far that the pillar was bent. P-clips where the nut had cut it right through, nuts and bolts with threads stripped, damaged headshells and cartridge bodies etc etc. I complained to Linn but they just advised me not to rock the bolt and sent me FOC spares to rectify the damage.

IMO, the LP12 is relatively 'bloated and slow' whatever you do with it, even love and care can't make a silk purse etc.

Having said that, there are thousands out there who love it. It's a well made, reliable machine with readily available spares and the ability to be updated from the very earliest decks.

Personally, I prefer a more 'accurate' sound rather than the colourations but others would argue differently.

I tend to echo Dalek Supreme on this.

many years ago, I was taught by Jimmy Hughes (who himself was taught by Julian vereker) how to set up an LP12. Tighten everything "BUT" make sure the audio cable is properly clamped and not pinched as it passes through the P clip (many are pinched badly and it makes a difference).

The thing is, I heard a Spacedeck and it totally trounced the LP12. It was more "musical," more "rhythmic," far more enjoyable and "involving" to listen to and, to answer the "true to life/mastering/master-tape" argument, closer to the copy master tapes s I had. The Mentor/Decca Microscanner was almost identical and records sounded Sooooo good with this deck and into my ARC SP14 (I'd say the Croft SMA IV PP had as good a phono stage, despite the lack of "Wonder Caps").....

Many top end turntable systems used to sound lazy, as if all the life has been refined out of the music. The Decca and Mentor have precision, but there's a raw-ness I loved that brought LP's to life - and that's before I played uncompressed 12" singles where all the limiting was often switched off.......

So, to conclude, I'd suggest that a "closer to the original acetate/master tape" view is the correct one, as so much more music comes through, but I do object to the bass up-treble down balance of so many cartridges. Set your system up around this incorrect balance and there's no way CD in any shape or form will work. My system sounds grand on CD and it's the vinyl that currently sounds too safe (the Dual is good with ATC actives, big and small, but the Crown/BC2 combo needs a bit more "drama" from my LP spinner).

Forget most LP12's. Pre-Cirkus ones NEED to be super-tight, but later ones need to be firmly tight but no more as Dalek Supreme said above. Whatever, things have moved on and the LP12 is now trading on its reputation and the stupid retail prices these days are just too greedy IMO and indicate desperation as the retail prices keep climbing and demand falls for new ones (I very recently heard of yet another UK firm giving up majority ownership to a creditor (?) in the far east - such a shame).

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Originally Posted by hifi_dave

It wasn't Linn insisting on everything being tightened until it cracks, it was the self-promoted Guru's, some of whom still practice this 'art'.

I remember a dealer close to me who did just this for a period. I had several LP12's in with faults such as damaged Ittok's where the bolt had been tightened so far that the pillar was bent. P-clips where the nut had cut it right through, nuts and bolts with threads stripped, damaged headshells and cartridge bodies etc etc. I complained to Linn but they just advised me not to rock the bolt and sent me FOC spares to rectify the damage.

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Hope that wasn't me you're complaining about, old chum???!!! :lolsign: I can think of several dealers to the south and east of us who did things tight but missed all the basic aspects too and at least one customer who took matters into their own hands with catastrophic results.......

No not you. They weren't as close as you and often had Linn days. Does that help ? :scratch:

We used to get lots of LP12's in for rectification following their Linn days. Always gave us a chuckle.:lolsign:

I'm really enjoying these 'smiley' things. Can't wait to use the big jobbie but I'm rationing myself. :smoking:

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....some foods still need a little seasoning to bring out the best in them!

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Indeed, Neal.

But the point I'm making is that the reason it may need a little seasoning to bring out its "best" could be more to do with the preferences of your palate than the inherent quality of the food!

As any chef of repute will tell you, the best ingredients speak for themselves without the need for artificial additives ;)

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Musically it was just so enjoyable and again it made you want to listen to music rather discuss the benefits of hifi flavours.

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Yes, Griffo, but I'm talking about the 'flavour' of music, not the 'flavour' of hi-fi!

The fact is if you're hearing more of what's actually on the record with less sonic signature from the turntable, then by definition whichever turntable does this is the most 'musical' :)

The ol' fruitbox I'm afraid is, well, just too fruity! :lol:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by hifi_dave

I'm really enjoying these 'smiley' things. Can't wait to use the big jobbie but I'm rationing myself. :smoking:

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LOL. Yes unfortunately Tony doesn't like them on pfm, so as they say, 'fill your boots'! :lolsign:

Marco.

Well, that's the Technics SL1210 out then... just look at all the 'additives' in needs just to taste nice! :lol:

HiFi Dave, I know EXACTLY who you're talking about, and it's the two I had in mind also (phew!!!!! - my reputation's intact - what's left of it...... ;))

I thought the Cirkus LP12 was a huge improvement, but the sound "darkened" quite noticeably to my ears. The ARO/Geddon made the thing sound like it did in the seventies (a positive step backwards IMO) and I never got to hear one with the Nima, which I think would have been a good match. Like I said, the Spacedeck trounced it anyway (Marco, I know you love the SL1200 series very much, but Tom Fletcher just seems to have a "feel" for what's right in engineering (if not production finish) and his "right" is just so much better than most others IMO and the sound produced by his designs, which are almost immune to what they're located on, is excellent in all the "Linn" areas. Mention an NAS on the Naim forum and one is summarily dismissed as only the "South Midlands Guru" can set up an LP12 properly and any other deck set up by anyone else is inferior.....