Valve sound versus solid state...

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Originally Posted by Ali Tait

Aye but the thing is Tim,Directly-Heated Triodes are the most linear amplifying devices ever constructed by Man.If distortion is the only story,how come a single-ended amp sounds so much better with no feedback than with,when with no feedback distortion is much higher?

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I don't think distortion is the only thing, nor do I think that SS is inherently superior. I have discovered though, that for me, when the two are both very well done, the difference is small enough and subjective enough that I wouldn't spend a whole lot more for one over the other.

Tim

With valve amps distortion figures generally dont go below 0.1% at normal levels into real loads. I get the impression (maybe Anthony can confirm/deny) that engineers designing valve amps dont waste a lot of time trying to reduce disortion further. However SS amps can go very low - 0.001%. To get such low level a huge amount of time has to be spent.

Is time spent reducing distortion at the expense of other areas??

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Originally Posted by Primalsea

With valve amps distortion figures generally dont go below 0.1% at normal levels into real loads. I get the impression (maybe Anthony can confirm/deny) that engineers designing valve amps dont waste a lot of time trying to reduce disortion further. However SS amps can go very low - 0.001%. To get such low level a huge amount of time has to be spent.

Is time spent reducing distortion at the expense of other areas??

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hi paul,
distortion figures are an inportant factor when designing both valve and solid state, but as discussed it is the type of distortion and its affects on the listener that has to be considered, ie, most conventional solid state designs are of a pushpull nature, hence it is important to try and design out or control any form of distortion to avoid creating the destructive higher order harmonics of which even small amounts are very objectionable. on the other end of the scale for eg a single ended directly heated triode valve amp output stage produces predominantly low order even harmonics, so quite large amounts of this type of distortion can be tolerated [as high as 10%] compared to conventional solid state, hence the need for correcting this type of distortion is much lower, thus the circuit can be designed much simpler and purer.
anthony,TD...

I made the mistake, two years ago, of buying a Chinese 300B single ended amplifier. It sounded absolutely wonderful for a year and a bit. In 1998 I owned a ready built WAD 300B PP amplifier and a KLP1 preamp. It was the finest amplifier I have ever heard. I have heard comparable transistor amplifiers in money terms but not one of them has had anywhere near the 'air' and 'space' of the valve amps. I adore valve amps but have always found that, when I've owned them, for some mysterious reason, I've always been glad to see the back of them. Coming bang up to date... I doubt that I shall ever again be in a position to spend two thousand pounds on an amplifier. In fact, I doubt I shall ever be a position to spend that amount of money on a complete system... I'm working on it though.

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Originally Posted by anthonyTD

hi paul,
distortion figures are an inportant factor when designing both valve and solid state, but as discussed it is the type of distortion and its affects on the listener that has to be considered, ie, most conventional solid state designs are of a pushpull nature, hence it is important to try and design out or control any form of distortion to avoid creating the destructive higher order harmonics of which even small amounts are very objectionable. on the other end of the scale for eg a single ended directly heated triode valve amp output stage produces predominantly low order even harmonics, so quite large amounts of this type of distortion can be tolerated [as high as 10%] compared to conventional solid state, hence the need for corecting this type of distortion is much lower, thus the circuit can be designed much simpler and purer.
anthony,TD...

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I think this is one of those cases where the cure (negative feedback) can be worse than the disease (higher levels of distortion). As Anthony states, the low order distortion produced by tubes in generally benign subjectively. Adding feedback will lower the absolute values but increases the complexity of the distortion spectrum leading to subjective consequences.

Hi Anthony,

What I was getting at is when you design an amp with already low and acceptable distortion figures do you then go on to bang your head agianst a wall to get it even lower or do you move your attention to other areas that may also have a impact on the sound.

Just wondering if that to some (designers of SS amps) getting lower distortion than your rival become all emcompasing to the point where other important factors are ignored.

Hi Tim,
Agreed that some sand amps sound good,it's just for me none I've heard equal what a good valve amp can do.To my ears,even a mediocre valve amp sounds better than a good sand amp.

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Originally Posted by Primalsea

Hi Anthony,

What I was getting at is when you design an amp with already low and acceptable distortion figures do you then go on to bang your head agianst a wall to get it even lower or do you move your attention to other areas that may also have a impact on the sound.

Just wondering if that to some (designers of SS amps) getting lower distortion than your rival become all emcompasing to the point where other important factors are ignored.

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hi paul,
i see, well as the post above explains [i should coco] once you reach a level that is exceptable,[we are all diffrent] there are other areas that would benefit more from a designers point of view, ie power supplies, circuit layout. to get the lowest posible natural noise floor from a specific circuit [ie without using feedback to artifically lower it] can be equally as important as ultra low distortion figures.
anthony,TD...

So what decent and afordable valve amp with a reasonable power output will give silent operation when no music is playing into a pair of 103db sensitivity speakers?

And furthermore will it be flat in frequency response from below 20hz upwards?

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Originally Posted by sastusbulbas

So what decent and afordable valve amp with a reasonable power output will give silent operation when no music is playing into a pair of 103db sensitivity speakers?

And furthermore will it be flat in frequency response from below 20hz upwards?

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hi steve,
thats easy, my soul amplifiers, well they have two out of the three above, affordable well, thats down to the individuals acceptance of the term!
anthony,TD...