The modified SL-1200: understanding the dynamics of 'synergy'....

I think it's important, David, that these things are examined in detail before the Techy gets blamed for something I don't believe is its fault.....

So stop getting all defensive again just because you've bought a 309! :ner: ;)

Marco.

Defensive, moi? The only defence I do is defending all my customer's systems against the nasty mains pollution.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest but some will be quite upset and maybe even offended when you are less than favorable about something they maybe spent over a grand on?

I just use my eyes and ears and they tell me the 309 is a joy to look at and a joy to listen to, anyway I think too much importance is placed on arms, unless the entire system is singing from the same hymn sheet so your point about synergy is of paramount importance. Now how would a £5k cartridge sound on the end of the stock arm, would it sound better than a £20 cartridge on a £5k arm?

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It doesn't bother me in the slightest but some will be quite upset and maybe even offended when you are less than favorable about something they maybe spent over a grand on?

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Well, I'm entitled to express my opinion, and if I have something to say which I think is important, I'll say it. There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism when it's necessary, so I'm sure people who own SME tonearms are big enough and ugly enough to take it! ;)

I suggest we leave that one there.

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Now how would a £5k cartridge sound on the end of the stock arm, would it sound better than a £20 cartridge on a £5k arm?

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Not sure I get where you're coming from :scratch:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by JazzBones

I'm shuffling in here with my two cents' worth on the subject of compatible tone arms. For thirty odd years Panasonic has produced a turntable that has out sold all others, or so I have been told. Its engineering has been admired from the execution to price for the product so the engineers really knew what they were doing. So why oh why has the stock arm been given such dismissive print time, Dave Price of HFW for example? Surely the aforementioned engineers would have engineered an equally sound product for the 12** tone arm albeit under a price constraint. When I first got my 1210 I used the stock arm with a Goldring 1012GX cartridge and it sounded pretty okay by me and nudging me along the upgrade journey. I then substituted the Technics head shell for a Sumiko and that brought an improvement. This leads me to the subject of having the stock arm modded as well. The arm cable would need to go, and Johnny Nielsen (J7) of Audio Origami could then do an internal rewire plus any damping required. The counter weight could also come under close scrutiny and viola, we have an arm of worth until funds permit an upgrade. My upgrade was to have my Linn Ekos transformed by J7, the works in fact and having a close lineage to the Jelco works bundles for me. I also have a Jelco 750D put prefer my Origami Akos :)

I'm not sure here, but I think Chris P down graded his bearing from an MN to a TS one when DC was putting the frighteners on about oil leaks, overheating etc. I questioned this at the time on the Timestep forum but my post was deleted without an explanation and on that day I left and found a home here at AoS. By all means censor if required but don't gag a valid question! From time to time I have had a look at the TS forum but have stopped doing so as I have become suspicious of any dealer/manufacturer lead forum which I now look upon as being a vehicle to push their products and stock to the fore.

I have digressed here, sorry folkies, but lets have some re-thinking on the Tekko's own stock arm and where it can be taken to?

And now I shall shuffle off and have my evening's tincture :)

:cocktail: Ron

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Interesting point Jazz, re-wire, foam fill- how far can we go with it- the arm is so musical!

Single biggest issue with the SME 5 is the coloured VDH internal wire and external arm cable. Get the arm re-wired and imho most of the issues vanish. Any other SME arm using this or similar VDH cable is also compromised fundamentally too imho.

I would also say :sofa: unless you do direct comparisons on the same deck (and that must be compatible with the arms being tried) then comments relating to what is better or not better based on experience of these arms on different turntables is at best partially useful and at worst open to doubtful recall. The cartridges also need to be fully compatible with the arms under test. Only if you have done that can any kind of statement be made imho.

This is exactly why I have been doing extensive tests (for awhile now) using the Technics 1200 with SME 5/Jelco 750d, Origin Live and soon my Graham arm (hopefully) when all that is done I will be able to throw my two p into the arena but not until then.

However what I will say at this point and as long as the deck is fully compatible (interestingly I don't think the Model 20 is :eek: instead to my ears the Graham Phantom sounds better on it) and suits the SME5 arm then frankly it is in the top few best arms about.

Perfection of build, perfection of set up, perfection of instructions, perfection in accessories and excellence of sound (caveat) if rewired or at the least a different arm cable is used or junction box. However if people don't like its sound then fair enough but that does not make it a poor tone arm just one you don't like...imho.


:sofa: D S D L

I did have my V recently rewired by J7 at AudioOrigami and all I can say is why the hell didnt I do it earlier? Bigger soundstage, better bass (extension, tightness), increased microdetail, the list goes on. I got rid of the original wire and had some teflon coated silver with silver cartridge tags installed. Total cost with a few others mods came to £350. Best £350 I spent in a while. :cool:

I agree with what you're saying, Neil.

However, I still feel that the magnesium used in the construction of the SME V, over dampens the sound, and along with the dreadful VDH internal wiring (why is such hopelessly crap cable continually supplied with a very expensive tonearm??) goes some way to contributing to the SME's 'house signature'.

There's a reason, you know, astonishing as it is, why an SME V on a Model 20 T/T doesn't 'work', and you have to fit a Graham Phantom to fix the problem! ;)

Anyway, let's try and keep the discussion on-topic and not dwell any more than is necessary on the issues some SME tonearms may have. This is about the Techy and helping Chris achieve more satisfactory results from his T/T.

I'm certainly not anti-SME, as some folk seem to think. I love the Series M2 and M2-12R, the latter especially when partnered with an SPU. I also love the old 3009 and 3012! I'm just not a fan of their all-magnesium pick-up arms, for reasons already stated.

Marco.

Jazzy should remember a certain LP12/SME V and Kiseki Agat Ruby combo from yesteryear. god, that set sounded good :) A 309 with Troika headshell trounced a similarly priced Ittok/Troika too, although it dodn't sell because it wasn't judged "kosher."

Nah, I LOVE SME's except for one thing - the cachet prices they charge for everything these days. thank heavens for the Jelco 750 :lol:

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Originally Posted by prestonchipfryer

Well okay, you know it's the Rega arms. Not saying they are bad or good - it's a personal thing really, as I don't like them. Don't like the headshell arrangement, no standard VTA adjustment (yes I know there are after-market products), but not for me.

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Snap!

Rega tonearms are only worth gracing your T/T with, IMO (RB1000 aside) after being 'Johnnyfied' in Glasgow, which means a full rewire, and a stripped and polished armtube - then they sing! Otherwise, they are rather ordinary, although undeniably good value for money.

The problem is, people are lazy, and so won't think for themselves (or look beyond the end of their noses), preferring instead to jump on the latest bandwagon...... :rolleyes:

And the Rega bandwagon started with the departure of the superb (Acos sourced) R200. Their own pick-up arms which followed were decent but unremarkable, although touted at the time (incorrectly, IMO) by many as superior to the R200.

Don't get me wrong, Rega tonearms (and T/Ts) occupy a very valid position in the marketplace, and were responsible for getting thousands of people into vinyl who otherwise couldn't have afforded to do so, but the success of their tonearms is partly down to people's lack of imagination.

Personally, RB1000 aside, I'd rather have a Roksan Nima, the M2 we've been discussing, a Jelco, or a Hadcock - all of which in my opinion are far more dynamic and musically interesting performers.

Marco.

My experience in optimizing the SME V mirrors some others.
It benefits greatly from a good phono cable and cartridge tags.

What I hear is that the arm is very resolving and accurate, and it lets you hear your system.
I had over done bass for a while, but when I changed my phono stage to the Conrad Johnson from the Modwright, the bass was perfect, tight and tuneful.
Plenty of dynamics and superb tonal balance.

I would look at your phono cable, cartridge setup and cartridge, and phono stage as possible sources of the sound signature that you don't prefer. Ultimately it is synergy, or sorting out your system to get the sound you like.

Also the stock platter and lesser bearings play a not insignificant role in the sound signature.

Cheers
Pete