Martin,
Good news. I do have the higher rated powersupply module!
TDR-21 here I come!
I built a DIY version of the SR5, so no LED :lol:
Now I need to get a higher voltage transformer... arghh... its always something.
Cheers,
Pete
Printable View
Martin,
Good news. I do have the higher rated powersupply module!
TDR-21 here I come!
I built a DIY version of the SR5, so no LED :lol:
Now I need to get a higher voltage transformer... arghh... its always something.
Cheers,
Pete
Nice one!
Ask Paul for advice on the transformer as he told me there are many inferior toroids around.
Please see my further thoughts here, not wanting to double-post the same item. Take especial note of my new earthing arrangements, these are critical to get the best from the mods (and a happy find by dint of changing my armboard):
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showp...5&postcount=76
Martin,
1. Your describe your "earthing" setup as follows :-
"Earthing: rather than the original earthing arrangement where the deck was earthed via the arm's earth cable, the steel arm plate and into the deck at a different point from the PCB earth; the deck and arm are now split in two (insulated by the wood) and each is independently earthed back to the same earthing post on the phono preamp (the deck from that all-important lower-left PCB post), so true star earthing both inside and outside the turntable"
Is this the same earthing setup that is described in the second picture in your post http://theartofsound.net/forum/showp...5&postcount=89
2. Is this the recommended version of earthing the regulator mods from Paul or is this something that you have devised?
3. Have you implemented stage 3 of the regs yet and would the proposed superclock mod take into consideration and be designed around current regulator mods??
Andy
Hi Andy
It's an extension to that picture (I fixed your broken link): I deviated from Paul's wiring recommendation by adhering to strict star earthing as much as I can accommodate it. So the negative return from the external SR5-27, one of the grounds from the TDR-21 (wire with green sleeve), and now a new green wire going out to my phono preamp, all go to that single ground post where the PCB tracks also return to.
Further, my arm is not earthed to another part of the deck, its earth cable also goes to the phono preamp earth post.
As for stage 3 (three further tertiary regs), that comes next. I haven't even thought as far as accommodating the Superclock, if it can be done, but I would naturally use another PH module to supply that with clean power.
Thanks for the replies. I'll be buying the regs when they become available and when I've got my PSU from Paul. I'll have to get in contact with you if you dont mind with regards to helping me to earth my techie like you've done with yours. Toodle Pip :eek:
No problem, Andy. Shout when you're ready.
I've nearly finished my Garrard 301 restoration project which I started at Xmas so it might be sooner than you think. I just had a thought about adding an additional regulator for the potential superclock mod. What it be a good idea to do away with the pitch stabiliser altogether and use the space that it takes up to add more regulators?? I think I recollect seeing a simple mod where this can be achieved. I must admit I think the pitch stabiliser to be pretty pointless and if we intend to use a super accurate clock to stabilise everything why the hell do we need a pitch stabiliser polluting up the PCB???? :scratch::scratch:
Well indeed, although a revised clock circuit shouldn't take up much room. However, don't get too excited about a Superclock just yet until Audiocom come back with a yes/no. Failing that, maybe a small crystal oven with either the original or a superior crystal.
:popcorn:
Anyone hear from Paul lately? I asked him about transformer manufacturer suggestions for the TDR-21 but he has not responded in several days.
I think I am going to get a 250va 25vdc primaries transformer, either Avel Lindberg or Plitron toroidal, unless someone can steer me to a better choice. A bit overspeced, but I think that may yield some benefits, as a bit stiffer power supply is never a bad thing :)
Parts Connexion in Canada have some nice Hammond toroids, I've used them before and they're very quiet.
I think Paul's philosophy concerning transformers for top rate DC power supplies, is that they need to be specialy designed to prevent inrush currents at switch-on causing saturation of the core. He offers his own very specially wound transformer which unfortunately is very heavy. I considered getting one but the postage to OZ was about the same as the cost of the tranny.
Mike
So what transformer did you go with?
Martin,
I have used AVELs and never had a noise issue so far, like the transformer humming.
Pete
Hi Pete,
At the current time I am still trying to decide what path to take.
At the moment I am still using a KAB would you believe; but I have changed the DC connection point to bypass the rectifier bridge, increased the size of the input cap on the PCB (effectively across the incoming DC line that ) and doubled the size of C3, the main 21V DC cap. This has provided me with what I consider to be a moderately decent PS. However I really must bite the bullet and build a much impoved supply if I can locate a local quality torroidal transfomer. The problem as Paul indicated some time ago, a lot of these components although they may be indicated as being of high quality local manufacture, actually come from that large country next to Taiwan
I should also mention that I have replaced the KAB connection lead with far more substantial quality wiring and a better plug/socket.
Hi Pete,
Sorry for the tardy reply. I am very busy at present catching up will all the production delays through December into the New Year for various weather issues (no transit of incoming or outgoing goods and loss of mains power during gales up to hurricane force), holidays and the occasional virus attack (yes we get them out here too). Aside from all the catch up effort my e-mail inbox is overflowing with a much larger than usual influx of enquiries both technical and sales, oh and the trading figures for the end of January Tax assessment have taken a few days to deal with. Expect delays with everything for a while.
A 250VA 25vac transformer will work.
Re the transformer I use, these are a special build and custom made in small quantities to my specification for each application. Sorry this is costly but there is no way around this for high quality transformers in a relatively small market. I would not have these transformers made if there were no benefits to sound quality. Added to the transformer cost is the high cost of overseas insured and tracked shipping via fast air services.
I have not used AVEL transformers for a long time or Plitron transformers at all so cannot comment on their abilities.
Regards
Paul
Sorry :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hynes
No need to be sorry Martin, most of the e-mail is from abroad and nothing to do with Technics power supplies.
Regards
Paul
I'm knee-deep in the phase 3 regulator upgrades. More later...
Fantastic. Once again, cant wait for your update.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
Reminder: phase 2 involved splitting the motor control electronics from the motor drive and feeding each with a separate 21V supply from the Paul Hynes TDR-21 dual regulator, itself fed from an SR5-27. Phase 3 feeds a clean 5V to IC302 (4011 CMOS quad NAND gates performing clocking duties) and 9.4V to IC301 (AN6682 pitch control).
Assuming phase 2 is already done, preparation involves removing the main PCB and bearing and performing the following mods:
- remove D301 and R304 to isolate the 5V supply
- cut the track leading to pin 9 of IC301 to isolate the 9.4V supply
- solder two wires to D301 holes to provide 5V and return
- solder wire to pin 9 of IC301 for 9.4V (underside of board)
Now the main PCB and bearing can be carefully reassembled into the deck.
I mounted the two mini-regulators using plastic posts as shown in the photo (9.4V top-left, 5V top-right). Both are fed 21V from the motor control (top) regulator of the TDR-21, leaving the lower motor drive 21V for that duty alone. I took the 9.4V regulator return to the main star earth (bottom left post). However, Paul advised connecting the 5V regulator return to D301 anode because this needs to be a tight loop, which is why this reg is not star earthed. Finally, the 9.4V +ve and 5V twisted +ve/return wires were soldered to the regulator outputs.
It's a little fiddly keeping it all neat while leaving enough wire to first get the main PCB back in position and then the regulator PCBs snapped into place and I dressed the wires as best I could, taking care not to allow anything to foul the underside of the platter.
Final testing involved switching it all on and checking that both 21V rails, 9.4V and 5V were all present. Finally, I put the platter back on and tested both speeds with a strobe disc just to ensure that all was well with the drive electronics. Everything is running perfectly and I'm listening to it now.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8248/8...815d8717_b.jpg
you must do at least 12 hours of listening now and report back tomorrow morning with a 1000 essay on the changes you can hear. :D
Then reverse the mods going back to phase 2, just to double check the differences you think you heard with phase 3. Then redo phase 3, and check again :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by REXTON
Martin,
Seriously, great job milking every drop from this motor circuit.....
BTW, what wire did you use for hooking up all the circuits?
Cheers,
Pete
:lol: Actually, I only needed about one minute, the changes are that easy to hear. More later today when I get home.Quote:
Originally Posted by REXTON
The wire is Paul Hynes Fine Silver, the same as used for my external feed from the SR5 (different gauge). If you order the regs from Paul, I strongly advise that you also order about 0.5m of this stuff plus sleeving as it makes everything consistent and it solders easily enough using Shark 5.5% silver solder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete
Nice one, Martin. Look forward to finding out what you think! :)
Incidentally, now that you've done the regulator mods, can the whole shebang be connected to an SR7EHD (to take advantage of that massive tranny inside it, and its other benefits), or will it only work with your SR5?
If it's the former, then you've still got some fun to come, and goodness knows what that combination will do!! :eek: :D
Marco.
There are two issues, Marco: different connector and different voltage. Both can be overcome by using an adapter and adjusting the voltage inside the SR7 to 27V - and remembering to adjust it back again before you connect it to your deck :eek:
So the ultimate is for you to get an SR7, and make the necessary adjustments?
If you rate the final regulator mods (which I'm sure you do), I think that will be the route I'll go: SR7 (suitably adjusted), plus all the 'gubbins' you've just installed inside your T/T.
That'll be a wee job for Anthony! :D
Marco.
I'm just not sure if the SR7 will have any more impact through the TDR21 or if it will once more lower the noise floor and output impedance over the SR5. Perhaps Paul could comment?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I'm sure he'll love it :eek:Quote:
That'll be a wee job for Anthony!
Hi Martin,
You will hear an improvement with the SR7EHD compared to your SR5. It’s not just the transformer that has been increased in size. The rectification has been altered to a balanced arrangement allowing the transformer secondary to retain it’s ground reference even when the rectifiers are not conducting. The energy storage capacitor bank has been increased and the supply rail for the output stage control circuitry has been improved.
Marco heard a substantial improvement with the SR7 over the SR5. You should hear this upgrade with your power supply even though the internal regulators have been applied. It might not be to the same degree but it will be significant.
Regards
Paul
Ok, thanks Paul. I'll be coming to you at some point for a price :eek:
Martin,Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
Why not go for what I'm getting the SR7EHD-XL! You'll need to speak to Paul with regards to what you get for your money. :eyebrows:
PS Paul, now that Martin has installed all these regs can you PM me the price for a complete set??
This thread is a fascinating read chaps and even though much of the technical stuff is beyond my ken, I applaud you all for your dedication and ingenuity. I will continue to follow your adventures with intense interest, especially as I now have an SL1210 to feed :D
What these final upgrades have brought to the table builds upon the already excellent sound from the phase 2 split 21V upgrades previously detailed. I had not expected, at this stage, to hear anything much different since there is already a lot of regulation going on and, by inference, noise reduction in the phase 2 mods.
What I immediately noticed were two effects: a lifting and resolving of previously buried detail and, related to this, a further lowering of the noise floor and general hash around the three-dimensional soundstage.
A few examples from my listening: Joan Armatrading (eponymous) starts with Down to Zero, and in there is a buried cymbal. I've always heard it, but now I can hear its shimmer and the way it is struck. Gordon Giltrap's Fear of the Dark sounds superbly detailed and clean despite getting busy in Fast Approaching. The leading edge of his guitar has fantastic attack. In Supertramp's Crime of the Century, Dreamer features an incredibly vivid piano and very front-of-stage voice in a mesmerising spacial presentation. The intro to ZZ Top's Eliminator, Gimme All Your Lovin, features a very dry bass drum with real shape to it. Norah Jones' album Not Too Late features a song, Sinkin' Soon, with her incredibly palpable voice and harmony, as well as gorgeous raspy synth sax (I guess). Yello's Flag features a track, Tied Up, with such a wealth of detail as to assault the senses. Out of this mix come bongos with amazing attack and dynamics.
In my thought experiment about what is going on here, I can only surmise that the impact of these mods, particularly affecting the clocking and pitch regulation circuits, is to feed the motor with an ultra-clean drive waveform lacking in noise components. This would give a reduction in vibration of the motor (even at its low speed) and rotational noise (or pitch micro-imperfections, if you prefer). These are just my ideas and I would entertain any other thoughts on why these particular regulators should make such a difference.
We are into exotic territory here and the mods are not for the faint of heart, although they will present few problems to anyone with electronics experience. Very highly recommended if you want pretty much the best vinyl reproduction you can lay hands on for reasonable money - provided you have performed all the other mods I have so far accumulated, and a system capable of high resolving power.
Martin, what is the total cost of the mods you have fitted please? I'd also be interested to learn how much it would cost to have the work done as they are beyond my capabilities ;)
I'd be tempted to have a look at the Vantage Audio mods if I were you Dave. They seem good value to me.
Or just flog it and get an SP-10;)
I was thinking of a combination of the regs mods represented on this thread and the VA Platter, bearing and feet ;)
Personally I'd do the VA feet, bearing and get a good mat for it. Then maybe think about the psu.
Or flog it and get an SP-10;)
Mark, you wouldn't be wanting me to buy and SP10 by any chance, would you? :lol:
Moi? No.
Just think how pretty that series 3 would look mounted on a custom plinth with an SP-10 though. It would be a thing of beauty.
I'll leave this to Paul to answer as I am unsure of his up to date pricing. The PH units I have are:Quote:
Originally Posted by synsei
- SR5-27 external PSU
- TDR-21 dual 21V reg module
- 9V4 series reg mini module
- 5V shunt reg mini module
- Fine silver braided DC cable
HOWEVER - all my other mods are relevant, too. It gets expensive relative to the base cost of the deck, but that's missing the point. It performs to the equivalent of a far higher price point.
- Dynavector DV507-II arm
- Ebony armboard
- Funk Firm platter and Achromat
- Mike New bearing and base plate
- Isonoe feet
- Bruil weight
Thanks a lot Martin. I realise that the improvements are due to an accumulation of upgrades but I'm keen to choose a different and slightly more cost effective path. I'm thinking of employing the Vantage Audio mods together with an external PS and the regs mods you have been so diligently fitting and reviewing. Not the accepted upgrade path perhaps, but cashflow dictates necessity and I feel it would be both interesting and educational to pursue the alternatives ;)
You could always try my Technics upgrade path Dave.
Okay, I'll get me coat.
And end up with something (sonically) worse ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingdong
When you've heard just how good Martin T's or my deck sounds, SP10's barely raise a 'semi'! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Yup, sounds like a good path to me, and plenty of people have written positively about the Vantage mods. Go for it, and keep us informed of your progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by synsei
:lol:Quote:
You could always try my Technics upgrade path Dave.
Okay, I'll get me coat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I know which one I prefer. Can you guess which one it is?;)
With respect Marco you don't know that for sure. The SP10 is a superb deck and having heard Mark's unmodified specimen in his system I am deeply impressed by its grip and outstanding resolution of dynamics. I feel that if the same mod development idiom was deployed for the SP10 it is likely to eclipse the results achieved by the SL significantly... :eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Why, in your opinion, would the Techy SP10 not respond favourably to the type of mods available for the SL series, not including feet made out of materiel gleaned from the Ark Of The Covenant of course? :D
Hi Dave,
It depends what you mean by "sure". I've heard about 7 different SP10s in the last 3 three years, most in direct comparison to my own T/T in the same system, which very good indeed, but none that I'd swap my modded Techy for.Quote:
With respect Marco you don't know that for sure.
That's about as "sure" as I need to be ;)
Do you honestly think that if I seriously thought that an SP10 was better, I'd not have gone out and bought one? You should know me by now, Dave - I don't do compromises...
I've not heard a 'tweaked' SP10, which I'm sure would be superb, but in my experience, the SP10's reputation far exceeds its actual ability (in stock from).
There... Now it's time to get MY coat!! :eyebrows:
Marco.