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The effort and hard work that has gone into that room is astonishing. Well done to that man - I hope he can now 'kick back' and enjoy the fruits of his labours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
However, tastes are a very individual thing - I don't think I could relax in the room as it appears. But each to their own.
That is Steves third and final room. This last one took about two and a half years to build! Yes taste is a personal thing, very much like hifi?:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry
You are right Charles the room is the most overlooked part of the system but understandably so because it requires quite a bit of effort and disruption. I can see that you have indeed done much to yours and I expect you have spent many hours evaluating each part. Very time consuming but the final rewards are definitely worth it. I have all the theory and knowledge gleaned from my friend but putting into practise is another matter!:)Quote:
Originally Posted by charles hidalgo
:thumbsup::wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakefield Turntables
Jim,
Great thread! I agree with about temperature, my valve system seems to sound better in a warm rather than cold room. Room treatment is something I've been thinking about for ages but just never found time, maybe one day. Be interesting to see how your experiments pan out.
The room treatment is very interesting as it manipulates the sound so much. I have spent many years concentrating on all other aspects of my system, in particular vibration around the turntable and tweaked cables, valves and positioning but the room treatment really does give big bangs for small bucks. It not really a fine tune of the system it is a fundamental change in how the system and aspects of it interact with the room and therefore your ears!
Last night I was contemplating the significance of controlling the first reflections and its affects on the tweeter information. It is quite profound. It affects timing, direction/reflection, intensity and therefore the quality of both the detail and imaging.What I have observed is that controlling the high end sound waves obviously means you are hearing more coming directly at you from the tweeter rather than being bounced off the walls. This means the speakers are giving me a far more accurately constructed image of what is going on in the recording. Bouncing sound waves in this part of the audio band really does smear and obscure the imaging.
What I am now hearing from recordings is a much clearer picture of the layering in the recording. Instead of everything overlapping and generally muddying the sound I am now hearing layering of information and much much better imaging, so much so things in the mix that I was unaware of before have now been made crystal clear which in some cases is astonishing especially concerning vocals where the performer may have double miked themselves or added backing accompaniment of their own voice singing along. Before I sometimes heard this as one or nothing now it is distinctly separated.
I intend to do more evaluation of recordings over the weekend and can't wait to discover what other recordings I know very well have to offer with the change in room treatment.
Great post again James, looks like you are making inroads into an area that few of us really explore. I may look into this in the warmer weather when I can use the garage to make up moveable frames for room treatment panels :)
Definitely worth playing around with especially if you can knock something up cheaply. When you think how much we pay for even small changes to the sound of our system, room acoustic manipulation is a no brainer. Far bigger changes can be made to the sound of your system than just changing an amp or cable. I still think speakers and cartridge can have a bigger effect but in order to get the sort of soundstage and imaging up lift I have found then acoustic treatment is the way to go.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
Excellent article on room acoustics. Far better than my efforts explaining the effects.
https://blog.keepcoding.ch/?p=715
yes no need to spend big money on 'dedicated' treatments in order to get significant gains. I have a roll bubble wrap sat on top of a roll of loft insulation in what was an empty and reflective corner and it works a treat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Of course that's not for everyone.
There are ways around the WAF issues and for those blokes who care about the aesthetics. For example - first reflection points, place a couple of plants there. Maybe not quite as effective as a dedicated panel but still way better than nothing. And no woman in history has ever complained about there being more plants in the room.
Probably have to read that a few times for it to sink in James :)
I dare not mention plants helping in a room as my living room will be turned into the Amazon jungle!:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Cheap way to do it and you get extra O2 to breatheQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I have a Yukka living next to one of the speakers, looks just like this one. I think it helps a bit. Unfortunately no room for a plant near the other one.
https://www.bahcedensepete.com/wp-co...az-570x795.jpg
Making something....?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...5591f1f5_k.jpg0243BFDA-7594-471E-820E-CB7FFC6DCBBF by , on Flickr
Ooh, Schwalbe "Nobby Nic" tyres.
Well spotted Kev, didn't know you where a Mountain Biker. It is an old school bike - Cove Hummer but it is indistructable as it is an all Titanium frame. Hope dual pot hydraulic brakes and Chris King headset.Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...04abde07_k.jpgF4D26253-008B-4684-813C-92DD07F1FE0C by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/[/url], on Flickr
I see your old school, and raise it with an "original" Mount Vision complete with V brakes and upgraded Fox rear shock/Marzocchi forks. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
A few more from the collection.....
Whyte MTB
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...608cb50c_z.jpgIMG_0466 by , on Flickr
Specialized Diverge Gravel bike
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...59313bbc_b.jpg31F892AE-8253-49BB-8659-9E0BCD88E87E by y, on Flickr
A nice collection...
I have an old school Pine Mountain, used to be fitted with Pace RC35 forks, but I have replaced them with Rigid forks to have a winter trainer/commuter.
The other bike is an Orbea Onyx.
Those Pace forks were very nice however I feel Rockshox and Fox have now got the market. I went rigid on an old MTB and loved it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH
bicycle talk, it means nothing to me. I'm guessing 'MTB' doesn't mean Motor Torpedo Boat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
I know what a Raleigh Chopper is if that helps.
Haha, yes my other big interest is cycling and it too is just as nerdy as HIFI when you get into it. If you lucky I may even share some photos of me in full lycra outfit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Only kidding that would get me banned from the forum and no one would wish to see the horrors of an old man in lycra!:lol:
i dont even want to see a young man in lycra...:doh:
Well you've already confessed to getting rigid with an old MTB (whoever that was). I imagine that was a horrible sight...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
MTB - "Mountain Bike".
I have a couple. Strangely, there are no mountains around here :).Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry
They're called 'Mountain' bikes because they were invented by a bloke called Dave Mountain.Quote:
Originally Posted by walpurgis
Probably.
Acoustic room panels begin with bookcase panel. This will be about 2 inches thick and triple ply manufactured with fabric, acoustic wadding then backing material.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...cbf1644c_k.jpgC64E00B1-93DF-4785-9444-793CEE677770 by y, on Flickr
Nearly finished....
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...9625134a_k.jpgBFB49C7A-93D9-4D6C-B003-5D816FA74445 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/]url], on Flickr
That's a lovely job mate and perfect for what's intended. I look forward to your implementation of room treatment and their effect. I will probably follow in your footsteps, however, my listening room is much smaller than yours and so will require a smaller version :)
Thanks Brian, the other side will look a lot more regular as it were but I have plans too implement an effective wall mounted panel.:eyebrows:
So the room acoustic treatment evaluation continues and I have tried adding asorbtion panels at the early reflecting points established primarily by using a mirror whilst sitting at the listening position. Listening evaluation once again confirms the benefit for just utilising first reflection panels with much better soundstage both in depth and width and once again far better imaging.
I found this article this afternoon which confirms exactly what I am hearing.
http://realtraps.com/rfz.htm
When I have everything finished in situ and sorted I will post up pics. I am hoping to use Room EQ Wizard to evaluate room properly but I just need to get hold of a microphone off a friend!
Looks like you're on the right track mate :)
Hopefully. Might have the finished panels done by the end of the week.:eyebrows::)Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
That'll be interesting :)
And then Mrs Jimbo will tell you that there is no way you are putting those things in the lounge! :eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Yes your right, I am pushing it a bit so they will have to be WAF approved.:(Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH
Another excellent article on room treatment. All of these can be found within the RealTraps website I linked to earlier.
https://hometoys.com/characteristics...sounding-room/
Tried the 38% rule last last night and moved speakers forward a little. In order to get a much better sound I would actually need to put a chair in the middle of my room with a perfect equilateral triangle but this would look stupid in my current room set up. However when I am on my own listening I may try this on occasion.
It means I would almost be near field listening in the room and I have a plan how I may achieve this with a simple radical change to the room which I am going to try. It will probably change radically how my whole system sounds but I will give it a go even though it will look bonkers. I will set it up later today when the house is empty and give it a go and post some pics up.
:eek:
Interesting journey James, a good read too.
Not looked at room treatment,
but for speaker placement I found this guys methodology really good.
Worked great for me.
https://youtu.be/CyTkwkK8ON0
I wrapped my panels in white material to merge with the (white) walls. Well,they don't disappear but it helps.
The speakers are white for same reason. A bit different from Klipschorns from the 90s,or the Leak 3090s that were here for 10 years.
I will take a look at that later Gary - thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Gazjam
Yeah there is so much you can do with these panels Chris. I need them to stay WAF friendly so they will either co ordinated to match the room or eventually end up as Art works whatever those maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by hornucopia
Another view of the system. Mid century meets modern.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...655aef22_k.jpg29D7B6A6-1190-43A2-9F30-6C3BF8A54923 by y, on Flickr
Fab pictures James. Those are mighty big speakers :eek:
Cheers Brian.Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
They are big and difficult to get a true perspective of them in the room from the other end where they can look small.
This is another picture I took yesterday without the sofa and sitting half way down the room. There is about 10 feet behind my listening position to the back of the room from here but it would mean putting the sofa almost in front of the wood burner.:eek:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...b6d5bbc0_k.jpgED88AB55-4A5C-44A1-8970-B425D13CC7D5_1_201_a by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/[/url], on Flickr
looks like a nice listening space though. Love the view from the window too :)
Materials have all arrived today so tomorrow will be final assembly for first reflection traps. After reading and consulting a good many reference articles I think it may be best to not over do the first reflection points as I do not want to attenuate any midrange frequencies and certainly no lower mid/bass frequencies so I am aiming at just the top end first reflections. Therefore the traps will not have to be too deep or too large hopefully.
As always proof of the pudding will be in the listening. :)
Hope it all goes well James. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished article and where you put them.
Positioning has been nearly sorted. Listening tonight - Massive soundstage, huge increase in clarity across the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
But this is not only down to the prototype panels but also speaker positioning. They obviously go hand in hand and can only be determined by listening. Measurements may give some insight but your own ears always have the final say. All the theories and measurements only get you so far but I do acknowledge they get you close to the ball park. Personal preference in listening is the final arbiter as it is so easy to manipulate the sound depending on positioning.
When you take into consideration all the factors involved. Room, equipment, speaker position, furniture and acoustic treatment the permutations become ming boggling as with all things hifi it is a case of suck it and see and keep fiddling till you think it sound right to you. It may not be ruler flat frequency response across the spectrum and technically it may not be accurate but ultimately it is the sound you want to achieve and think sounds right to you that is important.
The acoustic treatment of course attenuates the speaker response so it has to be handled carefully. Too little and its not effective and too much and you can easily kill the sound.
I am finding that the increase in information, clarity, soundstage and imaging is the key for me. Get all these aspects right and I think you will be near optimising your system as best as you can in your home environment.