Class T-amps

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Originally Posted by squeezethatbuffalo

I never knew! How does it sound? :)

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I really don't know much about class T amps but I have faith in Sword Yang as an engeneer,he gives you the most for your money and has a good ear.

look at the little Dot product line and they only make nice stuff,useing very good componates.There is room to swap there really good capacitors for Elna Silmic or Black Gates (little dot tells me they test menny componates and stop when the upgrade has little to no affect on the sound so they can keep the cost down.)
They stand behind there product 100% and sell direct too.

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Originally Posted by goraman

I really don't know much about class T amps but I have faith in Sword Yang as an engeneer,he gives you the most for your money and has a good ear.

look at the little Dot product line and they only make nice stuff,useing very good componates.There is room to swap there really good capacitors for Elna Silmic or Black Gates (little dot tells me they test menny componates and stop when the upgrade has little to no affect on the sound so they can keep the cost down.)
They stand behind there product 100% and sell direct too.

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Did a bit of googling, and looks like the Little Dot T-Amps have gone out of production. Or at least temporarily available :scratch:

If you're looking to try another t-amp Alex,have a go with the Hlly 90.

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Originally Posted by Ali Tait

If you're looking to try another t-amp Alex,have a go with the Hlly 90.

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Hi Ali,

Sorry if I misled you, but I'm not in the market for another T-Amp (yet). I have successfully piqued the interest of several friends though, and I'll pass on your advice if they decided to take the plunge.

Cheers,

Today I paid my audio guru/friend a visit for a reality check.

While I am very happy with my modded TP60, I wanted the opinion from a neutral third party, who is not overly excited about the find like I am. My girlfriend has some renown in the local audiophile community for having "golden ears". Her opinion is highly regarded in "equipment shootouts", partly due to her good hearing, but mostly because she has no preconceptions regarding audio equipment, and is blissfully ignorant of "audiophile jargons".

But can I trust her on this? Hell no, she must be glad that I feel perfectly content with (relatively) inexpensive equipment! Conflict of interest! ;)

Anyways, this friend of mine is a truly talented fellow. He has plenty of experience with "Hi-End" audio, but now he almost exclusively uses self-designed/built equipment. He even designs his own boxes! And boy they sound good! :eyebrows: Unfortunately (for less talented DIYers like me), he only makes them in very small quantities for himself and close friends who are interested.

Before I digress any further... I'm happy to report that we TA2022 lovers aren't delusional!

"Hey, this amp isn't bad!" was what he said. Mind you, this came from a tube lover who is accustomed to Hi-End stuff ;)

Okay, so the little amp isn't bad, but not great either. I suddenly recalled the advice from a certain audiophile who lives in Scotland, so I asked him to add his favorite tube preamp between my Buffalo (the old 24... I only had enough time left on Sunday to put together the Volumite:() and the TP60.

I felt as if my TP60-2.1x just got upgraded to TP60-4.1x! :cool: That's one hell of a preamp! He told me that the preamp is OTL-OCL design, which is the combined effort of him and two other friends. IIRC, one is an EE professor and the other a maths professor. I don't know much about tubes, but he told me it's an uncommon approach, and the development process involved a lot of calculus. To be honest, I was a bit shocked. Did he just put tubes and calculus in the same sentence? :ner:

Things got even more interesting (to me anyway) after he opened the box. If the tubes are removed from the PCB, it would look ALOT more like a DAC than a pre :scratch: I think he said something about ICs controlling voltage so that the DC servo would always prevent DC from going to the output... but I understand or remember little of what he said :lol:

No matter, it sounded so good, I must have my precious! http://www.granitegrok.com/pix/precious.jpg

Fortunately, he still has a couple of spare PCBs left, and is willing to build me one. Great! The dumb DIYer approach has paid off yet again, all I need to do is wait and go to the bank :lol: He's a busy man though, who has a karaoke and a wedding video/photo studio to run, so I'll have to be very patient.

It might not "sound bad", but it probably sounds a lot better than any other amp for $100. People are comparing these with $1000 amps.

Hi Andy,

We should take http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/15373...relativity.jpg into consideration.

I actually consider "not bad" flattering, since the equipment that were compared to the TP60 to are very nice, I think it's safe to say they're significantly better than an average $1000 amp.

Oh, and the stock TP60 costs a little more than $100, it's about $160 USD without shipping. But I agree with you, the TP60 is definitely comparable to $1000 amps even in stock form. In fact, I like my TP60 so much that I have no plans of upgrading amplification in the near future after getting my new preamp. I might attempt to mod the TP60 a bit more, but that's about it.

Cheers,

When I had the little Trends TA 10.1 (which I very much regret selling now) I loved it. If I ever get the funds I might get another. Oh, it uses the TA2024.

Good stuff Alex,these amps do seem to respond well to a good valve pre,and as you say,used like this they do rival amps costing a lot more.

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Originally Posted by Ali Tait

Good stuff Alex,these amps do seem to respond well to a good valve pre,and as you say,used like this they do rival amps costing a lot more.

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At the risk of repeating myself-a Lightspeed attenuator is well worth trying.

Not heard one of those yet,read good things though.One thing with the 2022 that a lot of people seem to say is that it has good bass but can sound a bit too clean,so I think a good valve pre is a panacea for that,giving a really good ,well rounded sound when used together.

what is a class T amp?
I understand class A, A/B.
Dose it just mean it has no plate current most of the time?

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Originally Posted by Ali Tait

Good stuff Alex,these amps do seem to respond well to a good valve pre,and as you say,used like this they do rival amps costing a lot more.

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Hi Ali,

I used to think that pres are not necessary if a good volume control - such as the Volumite - is present, and that valve pres do offer benefits but adds unwanted color/distortion. I guess I just never heard one that's good enough :doh:

To my surprise, the soon-to-be-mine valve pre adds little color to the system. My friend told me that it's mostly due to the design. I did a bit of internet research on OTL-OCL tube designs after I came back, but I can't find anything helpful. :scratch:

Any fellow members out there who are familiar with this type of tube equipment?

Cheers,

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Originally Posted by goraman

what is a class T amp?
I understand class A, A/B.
Dose it just mean it has no plate current most of the time?

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According to Wikipedia:

A Class T amplifier is an audio amplifier IC design. Rather than being a separate "class" of amplifier, Class T is a registered trademark for Tripath's amplifier technologies.

It is an implementation of Class D amplifiers, but improves the control scheme to create more efficient and higher quality audio amplification. One of the amplifiers, the TA2020, was named one of the twenty-five chips that 'shook the world" by the IEEE Spectrum magazine.[1]

The control signals in Class T amplifiers may be computed using digital signal processing or fully analog techniques. Currently available implementations use a loop similar to a higher order Delta-Sigma (ΔΣ) (or sigma-delta) modulator, with an internal digital clock to control the sampled comparator. The two key aspects of this topology are that (1), feedback is taken directly from the switching node rather than the filtered output, and (2), the higher order loop provides much higher loop gain at high audio frequencies than would be possible in a conventional single pole amplifier.

Despite increased performance at a price similar to class D technology, financial difficulties have caused Tripath to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on 8 February 2007.

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Originally Posted by squeezethatbuffalo

According to Wikipedia:

A Class T amplifier is an audio amplifier IC design. Rather than being a separate "class" of amplifier, Class T is a registered trademark for Tripath's amplifier technologies.

It is an implementation of Class D amplifiers, but improves the control scheme to create more efficient and higher quality audio amplification. One of the amplifiers, the TA2020, was named one of the twenty-five chips that 'shook the world" by the IEEE Spectrum magazine.[1]

The control signals in Class T amplifiers may be computed using digital signal processing or fully analog techniques. Currently available implementations use a loop similar to a higher order Delta-Sigma (ΔΣ) (or sigma-delta) modulator, with an internal digital clock to control the sampled comparator. The two key aspects of this topology are that (1), feedback is taken directly from the switching node rather than the filtered output, and (2), the higher order loop provides much higher loop gain at high audio frequencies than would be possible in a conventional single pole amplifier.

Despite increased performance at a price similar to class D technology, financial difficulties have caused Tripath to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on 8 February 2007.

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Sounds like alot of parts to go wrong to me.
Simple is better,try a small tube amp.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ube&1288927970

Alex,just had a thought,what's the vol pot in the amp? Is it suitable for shunting?

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Originally Posted by goraman

Sounds like alot of parts to go wrong to me.
Simple is better,try a small tube amp.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ube&1288927970

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It may not sound like the best idea, but it does sound good :eyebrows:

I was once skeptical like you, but hearing is believing.

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Originally Posted by Ali Tait

Alex,just had a thought,what's the vol pot in the amp? Is it suitable for shunting?

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Hi Ali,

Sorry, I have no idea. I didn't pay much - if any - attention to the volume control, as I believe I already found the best solution for my system.

In fact, I asked my friend to build me the preamp without volume control. He seems to think it's a good idea as well (in the context of my system).

Can it still be called a preamp if it doesn't have VC? :scratch:

But if you'd like to know, I'll ask him next time I visit him. Probably after I've finished my BufII though, he's quite interested in "auditioning" the new and improved version after listening to my Buf24.

Cheers,

I meant in the Topping,or have you removed the vol pot?

Or since your friend is building you a pre without a vol pot,how are you controlling volume?

Hi Ali,

The vol pot has been removed for a while, see here.

I'm using TPA's Volumite for volume control. It's the best VC I've ever heard, digital or otherwise.

Cheers,

Ah yes,remember now.

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Originally Posted by squeezethatbuffalo

According to Wikipedia:

A Class T amplifier is an audio amplifier IC design. Rather than being a separate "class" of amplifier, Class T is a registered trademark for Tripath's amplifier technologies.

It is an implementation of Class D amplifiers, but improves the control scheme to create more efficient and higher quality audio amplification. One of the amplifiers, the TA2020, was named one of the twenty-five chips that 'shook the world" by the IEEE Spectrum magazine.[1]

The control signals in Class T amplifiers may be computed using digital signal processing or fully analog techniques. Currently available implementations use a loop similar to a higher order Delta-Sigma (ΔΣ) (or sigma-delta) modulator, with an internal digital clock to control the sampled comparator. The two key aspects of this topology are that (1), feedback is taken directly from the switching node rather than the filtered output, and (2), the higher order loop provides much higher loop gain at high audio frequencies than would be possible in a conventional single pole amplifier.

Despite increased performance at a price similar to class D technology, financial difficulties have caused Tripath to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on 8 February 2007.

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Jeez, that's the difficult way of saying it :eyebrows:

If you want it easier the amp uses switching outputs that are similar to class D. The difference being that at lower output levels the amp switches in the low MHz range to improve linearity & at higher outputs reverts to something like 400KHz to improve efficiency to avoid undue switching losses ;)

I'm putting together a little 'shed' system from kits, the amp is a TA2024 tripath jobbie, I have a DAC and a phono stage all separate, for a volume control I am thinking of putting a 50K Alps stereo pot in a box with phonos in and out so I can plug it in anywhere in the system ie between DAC and amp or between source and DAC, is this a feasable Idea or should I put it at the input to the amp inside the amp box.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Reid Malenfant

Jeez, that's the difficult way of saying it :eyebrows:

If you want it easier the amp uses switching outputs that are similar to class D. The difference being that at lower output levels the amp switches in the low MHz range to improve linearity & at higher outputs reverts to something like 400KHz to improve efficiency to avoid undue switching losses ;)

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Hi Mark,

I'm afraid that your explanation is much better :lol:

I think it also answers why T-Amps - even the higher powered ones - sound better with high efficiency speakers. I like mine best with my Fostex 166E floorstands.

Cheers,

Yes,I used mine with MLTL's using Fostex Fe167e's and FT17h supertweeters.

I hope I am still sort of on topic but a long time ago I built an amp with a pair of LM1875s. I point to point wired it, but only with a single rail supply so it has (bypassed) output caps. I used it mostly to drive a Stax energiser but once compared it with my Leak Stereo 20 into a pair of LS3/5a’s.

It sounded depressingly similar to the Leak except it didn’t seem to image as well and perhaps was not as ‘refined’, so I carried on with the Leak. I should dig it out again and have another listen. But don't they use these sorts of chips in most mid-range stuff these days?

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Originally Posted by Batty

I'm putting together a little 'shed' system from kits, the amp is a TA2024 tripath jobbie, I have a DAC and a phono stage all separate, for a volume control I am thinking of putting a 50K Alps stereo pot in a box with phonos in and out so I can plug it in anywhere in the system ie between DAC and amp or between source and DAC, is this a feasable Idea or should I put it at the input to the amp inside the amp box.

Cheers

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Hi Steve,

Inside the amp box would be best. The pot would be useless between source and DAC since that's a digital connection.
You could have two pairs of phonos in the amp box with a switch for selecting DAC or phono.

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Originally Posted by Ali Tait

Yes,I used mine with MLTL's using Fostex Fe167e's and FT17h supertweeters.

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My fullrangers are TWQT, thinking about adding some supertweeters, maybe T90As.

Any plans to get another T-Amp in the near future? :eyebrows:

Not at the moment,I'm happy with a pair of bridged DPA Enlightenment power amps,and hopefully the direct-coupled GM70 amps for my statics will be done in the next couple of months.Think that'll be it on the amp front for quite a while!

An original Sonic Impulse amp sold on bay for about £36 last night. I did bid, and was sad not to be able to rebid as my network had problems. I wasn't intending to go that high though, so now I feel better!

Just hooked everything together pc to DAc to amp to Castles, sounds pretty good for the outlay.

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Originally Posted by Ali Tait

Not at the moment,I'm happy with a pair of bridged DPA Enlightenment power amps,and hopefully the direct-coupled GM70 amps for my statics will be done in the next couple of months.Think that'll be it on the amp front for quite a while!

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Very nice! I've been thinking about getting some new valve amps as well, but that won't happen until I move to my new place.

Update on the "snubber cap" mod: I added one 0.01uf MKP2000s to each of the MUR420 diodes on my TP60. Initial impressions were smoother highs and slightly quieter background, no apparent tradeoffs. Not sure if running in would change things, since my DAC was upgraded to BufII soon after I performed the mods.

For those with a T-Amp that uses similar fast switching diodes, I think this mod is worth trying. Any reasonably small (0.01uf~0.068uf) film cap with a high voltage rating should do, cheap MKPs works for me :)

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Originally Posted by dave2010

An original Sonic Impulse amp sold on bay for about £36 last night. I did bid, and was sad not to be able to rebid as my network had problems. I wasn't intending to go that high though, so now I feel better!

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Was it a Sonic Impact amp? If so I wouldn't worry too much about not winning it. I've lived with one of these amps for several years now. The clarity these little boxes is certainly pretty good given the small cost. However, Bass!! Not a lot of it!!!

I've moved several times during my ownership of the Sonic Impact and had different set-ups. It never failed to work but I couldn't live with da missing bass. I've also got a NuForce Icon and this is a bit better in bass but loses out in the clarity.

I recently got an old (but recently serviced) NAD 3130 and found my missing bass. :)

Mike

Get a tripath amp with a ta-2022 chip.No lack of bass!

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Originally Posted by Ali Tait

Get a tripath amp with a ta-2022 chip.No lack of bass!

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That's worth knowing.

I've been thinking about revisiting valves but I can't get used to what I perceive as indistinct bass. Might have to take a closer look at a ta-2022 chipped amp.

It's a shame I can't pop down to my local hifi emporium (does such a thing exist now?) and have a listen.

I had the Hlly t-amp 90,search ebay,90w/ch into 4 ohms so plenty welly.I was very surprised how good this is.Good bass grip,and the mid and top sounds quite valve-like in a lot of ways IMO.

Oh,and sounds very good on it's own,but even better driven by a good pre.

Howdy folks, after reading through this and other threads about the supposedly magical t-amps I submit to you a question. Would a hlly or Bantam be appropriate in filling in the blank in my budget system (in a smallish room):

Macbook (Lossless) > Caiman > _______ > BW 602s2

or should I go with something more traditional (nad 316, for example).

Hope this is a good place to post this question, didn't really feel it needed a new thread...

Cheers,

Patrick

I'd go for the Hlly myself. Plenty power and sounds very good.

Ali

Are any of the other HLLY amps any good? See http://www.hllyaudio.com/index.php?m...b0a1jb1eegpg64

I know you like the 90, but is the 20 any good?

Well the reason I like the 90 is because it uses the ta2022 chip,which gives a sound that I like,quite valve-like in some respects,yet with a very deep and tight bass,at least compared to most valve amps I've heard. I'm sure the other amps in their range are good,but they will have a different sound as they use different chips.
Not sure,but I think the 20 uses the same chip as the Bantam,and Hamish has both the 90 and the Bantam,and prefers the Hlly. Perhaps he may comment.

Thanks for your input Ali Tait,

I'm hesitating between the Bantam Gold and the hlly 90, though I think I'll go for the hlly based on the 'tube amp' sound of the ta2022. I'm a little bit worried about the hissing that lots of folks seem to experience, but I think I'll take the chance.

The Bantam has the TA2024 chip, which has what's been described as a 'faster, crisper more precise' sound. An interesting article that discusses the two chips while reviewing an Italian t-am can be found here

My taste tends towards more natural and relaxed...

If anyone has any experience with the Bantam Gold, though, I'd love to know about it!

cheers.

If that is your taste,go for the Hlly IMO. Don't worry about the hissing,that was a problem in the earlier iterations of this amp,but has now been sorted. Put it this way,I was using mine with a pair of DIY MLTL's using Fostex Fe167e's at around 93dB/W/M,and I had to have my ear right up to the speaker cone to hear anything.The DPA power amps I'm using at the moment are noisier in this respect.

Trust me,you will love the Hlly.At the asking price,it's astonishing value.

I have a TA2024 Tamp between my PC, DAC and Castle Richmonds, I bought the Sure electronics prebuilt PCB and a case an LED and volume pot, put it all together although I'm only using a 9v supply (all I had lying around) not 12v it is quite impressive.

Hi guys,
I've a few T-amps, I love 'em. Recently I've been using a Sure with the TA 2024C chip, I've read on a few reviews that Tripath chips invert the speaker output. Feeling curious I reversed the speaker connections on the back of my Klipsch RB 81's. Holy Sh!t!! What a difference for the better. I can't believe I hadn't tried this before :doh: I spoke with Seth Krinsky (great guy) at Virtue Audio and he said that on their amps they've already reversed the speaker polarity so you don't need to reverse it on Virtue amps. I have the Virtue One with with the 130v power supply.

Best tweek I've ever done and cost nothing, lol! Would love to know if anyone else tries this and let me know what they think. Please forgive me if this topic has already been discussed :)

Having mt interest tweaked, l am amazed at the sound of the Mini-T T amp, l am a convert- has anybody heard or own the Virtue Audio Sensation range of amplifiers and care to share their thoughts?:)

talking of Virtue amps look what I've been playing with :) Currently listening to it in a second system, very nice amp too
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...s/P1060671.jpg

Thats the one l am interested in Leo, review,please, where did you get it- oh and it looks nice too!

OK so after reading up on the T amps, I'm pretty much sold on the idea for the second system I'm building.

But there are so many to choose from and I'm struggling to make decision (this is not unusual for me).

Do I go for the Mini T that Jerry is praising - thinking that 60 notes is a small investment to either prove or disprove the concept? I don't want to buy on import because of the hassle factor and delay.

Or should I recognise that until a week ago I was settled on getting a second hand cyrus and prepared to pay upwards of 300 quid - so why not go for something with some grunt? Kingrex 20u with PSU, or a bantam gold?

The man at item audio (who was very helpful) suggested the kingrex qs1 power amp would knock the socks off the kingrex 20u, but that's a little more again.

I will be using it with a SB3 via modded caiman or touch (on order) directly to proac signature reference 8 tablettes, which are rated at 87dB I think.

As for sound, I want non-fatiguing, not bright (the proacs are good in this respect) but with good clarity.

Thoughts anyone?

Simon