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I couldnt live with the hiss nowadays!
The BHK brought the magic, but also the hiss.
Happy to have tried valves in my system, but glad to be rid.
Been there, enjoyed it but moved on.
Funny how your tastes change as you bounce along the Hifi highway, good (and silent!) solid state is where its at for me now.
My listening room is long enough that I am so far away from my speakers I can’t hear the hiss. Must admit solid state usually sounds cleaner but sometimes at the expense of that magic sauce!
My vintage Sony pre-amp is probably some way off today's state of the art for SNR and its 35 year old DAC certainly is but it doesn't seem to hold back the sound quality any.
Measurements Smeasurements... only part of the picture!Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Its a funny old game this. :)
It only has to be better than my hearing is...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazjam
sorry... what?
Could you speak up a bit?
I have valves in my dac and the pre amp part of my integrated amp but I cannot hear any hiss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazjam
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Same, valves in pre, CD player and phono stage but no hiss.
I have seen a ModWright LS36.5 which has tempted me.
How can I tell if that will be a good match with my Neurochrome Modulus 686?
The ModWright uses output transformers for the balanced output with an output impedance of 110 ohms.
That will be no problem with driving the Neurochrome.
Thanks Alan.
I still need to get approval from SWMBO.
It is just a shame I missed out on a motorised SA for my KIN a few years ago.
SWMBO has said yes.
The only thing holding me back now is a silver pre in a black system….
You snooze, you lose.
It is already reserved.
My phono stage is Modwright, nice bit of kit and well built.
So my search for second hand preamps goes on.
The Electrocompaniet EC4.8 - is it any good?
My only experience of Electrocompaniet was with their debut 'The Two Channel Amplifier', a largely class A amplifier of 25W which I used to drive Quad ESL-57 speakers. They were superb!
Since then Electrocompaniet have enlarged their range of audio components and at the same time greatly improved quality of construction and cosmetics.
The EC4.8 gets several favourable reviews, and despite now being discontinued is available used for a reasonable price.
If I was looking for an elegant, slim and good looking dual mono preamp, supporting balanced-line circuitry, I would definitely give the EC4.8 consideration.
Thanks Barry.
Looking around for good second hand preamps, and a Pass Labs X2.5 has popped up.
Is this going to sound much different from the Topping Pre90?
Based on nothing really but you might want to check it out. Systems I have heard that used it have quite impressed me.Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH
Agreed, Pass gear is very good.
+1 from me as well. Whilst I have absolutely no experience of Pass gear, I do have enormous respect for Nelson Pass's designs, especially some of his more recent 'minimalist' designs which are elegant, simple and low power, suitable for high efficiency speakers.
Regarding the Pass Labs X2.5 amplifier, this was discussed on the Forum way back in 2018: https://theartofsound.net/forum/show...s-x2-5-pre-amp; sadly coming to no firm conclusion (which is only to be expected on a subjectivist forum), but you might find the posts interesting.
Thanks.
I had found that post.
The thing that puts me off the X2.5 is that it is an always on design, so if it has not been recapped, it is likely that it will be required soon.
Has anybody got any experience of Atoll?
I have spotted an ex-demo PR300 Evo that looks good.
I watched an interesting review by iiWi on an Audio Invader preamp.
Looks interesting.
I cannot see many mainstream reviews of it.
As I am now using my Firebottle Kin again, I have decided to try a bit of valve rolling on the line stage, and as PCC85 valves are dit cheap, I have a RTC which arrived today, which is a Philips Heerlen made valve.
Later this week a Tungsram is arriving, along with a spare La Radiotechnique 12AX7S that I found for a good price.
My thoughts are turning to see if I can modify my Kin, possibly in two steps.
Step 1 - remote Khozmo SA. I can’t remember if there will be space to fit one.
Step 2 - Neurochrome buffer to give me a balanced output
Much more research will be needed, and step 2 is not 100% required, and my 686 will run on SE inputs.
I did not do any of the above.
I decided to ask Gemini what preamplifiers would be a good match for a Modulus 686.
The best match of preamplifiers that I have been looking at in my upgrade budget, second hand, seems to be the Audio Research SP16L.
I was quite surprised. All of the ones I have seen seem to be silver.
I am also not sure that I want to go for a preamp with 3 x 12ax7 valves.
They are getting expensive.
I wonder about valve pre-amps and what the point is. Sure they can sound different but is it not just the higher output impedance?
At the phono stage bake-off years ago now we had a KIN pre-amp, but with my power amp and speakers. I took a CD player along which we put in during the lunch break and it was a bit grainy which it wasn't in my full system at home. Vinyl sounded great though, couldn't fault it.
Can see the point of valves in a phono stage as you can get gain without adding noise, or something like that. But elsewhere, no.
Another preamp I spotted is a Primare Pre32.
It looks interesting, as it has balanced outputs and inputs as well as RCA.
Quite tempted by it to be honest, although it may not be much different to the Topping Pre90 sound wise?
I also looked at building a Neurochrome pre, but Inthink that will be quite expensive, as I need two universal buffers.
More investigation is required.
Hey Kevin I have heard the Atoll in80 and IN300EVO and they sounded excellent. The 300 EVO had lovely big and detailed soundstage. I presume the PR300 EVO is very similar to the IN300EVO as a stand alone Preamp. Can't say anything bad about the 2 amps I heard and in fact I am nearly in the position to buy one but may go for the IN200EVO.
The PR300 EVO is a bit more than I want to spend.
From the reviews I have read, it does sound promising.
I suppose I could start saving up for one.
And here is what Gemini says:
The Primare is less than half the cost of the Atoll.Quote:
Both the Primare PRE32 and the Atoll PR300 Evolution are high-quality balanced preamps, but they offer distinct engineering philosophies. For the Neurochrome Modulus-686, which is a "benchmark" level amplifier in terms of transparency, the choice depends on whether you want to maintain that clinical precision or add a bit of French "character."
Comparison at a Glance
| Feature | Primare PRE32 | Atoll PR300 Evolution |
|---|---|---|
| Circuitry | Fully Balanced, Discrete Gain Stage | Fully Balanced Dual-Mono, Class A |
| THD + N | < 0.003% | 0.005% |
| Output Impedance | 110 \Omega (Excellent for 686) | ~ low (XLR is a new feature) |
| Volume Control | NJW1195 (Resistor ladder) | Switched Resistor Attenuator |
| Sound Profile | Precise, Clean, Scandinavian neutrality | Warm, Dynamic, Organic (Class A) |
| Best For | Accuracy & Detail retrieval | Musicality & Midrange "texture" |
1. Primare PRE32: The Logic Choice
The PRE32 is the safer "technical" match for a Neurochrome build. Primare’s design philosophy mirrors Tom Christiansen’s: low noise, ultra-short signal paths, and high bandwidth.
* The Synergy: Because the Modulus-686 has a very low distortion floor, the PRE32’s DC-coupled signal path (no capacitors to smear the sound) ensures you aren't introducing phase shift or coloration.
* The Benefit: It features a highly precise OLED display and an excellent resistor-ladder volume control that maintains perfect channel balance even at whisper-quiet levels—essential for high-sensitivity speakers.
2. Atoll PR300 Evolution: The Musical Choice
The "Evolution" (EVO) series is a significant step up from the older Signature line, specifically because Atoll moved to a fully symmetrical dual-mono structure with a stepped-resistor attenuator.
* The Synergy: The PR300 EVO uses Pure Class A bipolar transistors with very low feedback. This provides a slightly "meatier" sound than the Primare. If you find the Modulus-686 too "analytical" or "dry," the Atoll will add a sense of three-dimensional space and organic warmth.
* The Benefit: The massive filtering capacity (92,843 \mu F) gives it incredible dynamic headroom. It will make the Modulus-686 feel punchier in the mid-bass compared to the more "polite" Primare.
Which one should you pick?
* Choose the Primare PRE32 if you listen to complex orchestral works or high-resolution studio recordings where you want to hear every micro-detail and the exact "air" of the room. It stays out of the way of the Modulus-686.
* Choose the Atoll PR300 Evolution if you primarily listen to vocals, jazz, or rock and want the system to feel "alive" and slightly more forward. The Class A output stage is a classic pairing for ultra-clean solid-state amps like the 686.
Technical Note: Both units have XLR outputs. Use them. The Modulus-686 is a differential (balanced) design; using the RCA outputs of either preamp would bypass the 686's best feature: its ability to cancel common-mode noise.
Would you like me to check the secondary market prices for these units to see which offers better value right now?
Interestingly, Gemini also states that the Topping Pre90 is good with the 686, but I think it is too clean.
I guess I need to swap the Pre90 back in again.
Not sure I have heard Primare but I have a feeling the Atoll maybe a warmer/fuller sound which would be a good thing with the 686 which I have heard in my system. I think the 686 sounds better paired with a juicier preamp.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH
I think I agree.
There is a dealer in Toulouse that sells Atoll.
I was hoping to get one second hand, but that may not be possible.
If you are looking for a big soundstage with good detail this is where the Atoll amps excel. Fantastic build quality too. Buying in France should be a sure bet and if it doesn't work out easy to sell on over there I would have thought?Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH
The search is on hold.
I thought I had a maintenance contract on my car, but it appears it was stopped, so I just received a bigger bill than expected at the garage. :(
And there is more to come, as the SOS has developed a malfuntion, and the computer will need to be replaced.
New cars are great when they are working.
Ahhh, cars are always a worry and as we found out recently a money pit!Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH
Hope its not too expensive to fix!
Not too expensive.
The computer broke in the warranty period. Just need to have the argument about who pays for it now.
After a small period with the Kin, I have put the Pre90 back in.
Streaming Wheels turn beneath my feet 2, and it sounds awesome.
I also did a little tidying up in my Modulus 686 today.
A few years ago, I fitted a DC blocker, and used the same method as I did when I built the amp to raise the PCB above the transformers.
As I did not have any stand offs long enough, I screwed several together. Recently I took some proper measurements, and replaced the stand offs with one piece items of the correct length. This allowed me to locate the DC blocker better than it was fitted before.
Attachment 31691
It looks tight, but there is a gap between the PCBs.
I have been playing with Gemini again.
Gemini suggests I do nothing...Quote:
The Firebottle KIN is a fascinating alternative because it leans into a different design philosophy than the Atoll or Primare. It is a boutique, high-performance solid-state preamplifier (often associated with Alan Firebottle) known for its "valve-like" presentation despite being solid-state.
Given your setup with the BigBottle 3 and the Neurochrome 686, here is how the KIN changes the math:
1. The Sonic "Bridge"
The KIN is often praised for having an exceptionally smooth, non-fatiguing top end.
* The Synergy: Your RME ADI-2 and Modulus 686 are both ultra-high-precision, low-distortion devices. The KIN acts as a "buffer" that adds a sense of naturalness and "bloom" without the maintenance or noise floor issues of a full tube preamp.
* Vs. Atoll/Primare: It is more "soulful" than the Primare and arguably more transparent than the Atoll. It sits in a sweet spot where it doesn't sound "mushy" but removes the "solid-state glare."
2. Matching with the BigBottle 3
Since the KIN and the BigBottle 3 often share a design heritage or community (the DIY/boutique British hi-fi scene), they are practically made for each other.
* Impedance: The KIN has a high input impedance, which is perfect for the BigBottle 3’s tube output. You won’t lose any of that lush analog bass.
* Coherency: Using the KIN with the BB3 creates a very coherent "analog front end" that will make your vinyl setup sound massive.
3. The "Gain" Factor (26dB Modulus 686)
The Firebottle KIN is a high-headroom preamp.
* The Challenge: Like the Primare, the KIN can have quite a bit of gain. With a 26dB power amp, you might find the volume gets loud very quickly.
* The Solution: If you go with a KIN, check if it has the internal gain jumpers or if it’s the version with the stepped attenuator. A stepped attenuator is highly recommended for your sensitive 686 to ensure perfect channel balance at low volumes.
KIN vs. The Others
| Preamp | Personality | Why choose it for your system? |
|---|---|---|
| Firebottle KIN | Organic, wide soundstage, "valve-like" | To maximize the "magic" of your BigBottle 3 phono stage. |
| Atoll PR300 Evo | Punchy, Class A, modern | For a more "dynamic" and rhythmic presentation with a warranty. |
| Primare Pre32 | Neutral, detailed, feature-rich | If you want the RME’s precision to stay 100% untouched. |
| Topping Pre90 | Clinical, transparent | If you only care about measurements (but beware the BB3 mismatch). |
Final Thought
If you can get your hands on a Firebottle KIN, it is arguably the most "audiophile" choice of the bunch. It was designed by someone who understands the "BigBottle" sound signature perfectly. It will turn your Neurochrome 686 from a "high-tech tool" into a "musical instrument."
Would you like me to check the specific output impedance of the KIN to see how well it will drive the long cable runs if your amp is far from your rack?
Isn't it great that we now have a tool that can collect together all the bollocks ever posted on the internet and distil it down into one bite-size chunk?
What did we ever do without it?
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
That is what I was thinking, but the ability to drag up information posted across the Internet is impressive.
Good news is that it is a 50/50 split, which seems reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH
Don't know, but I've just had a quick chat with Gemini, and he seems like a thoroughly decent chap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
I asked him whether at 68 years old, is it worth me chucking £2k on new speakers, or would my money be better spent on a funeral plan? His reply was that based on average life expectancy I should get around 7,000 days of "enhanced atmosphere, music and clarity". Whereas £2k wouldn't even get me a bog basic funeral. Pretty much my thoughts too :)
Sounds like a "win" from Gemini.
What did the wife say?
Did you ask Gemini the best way to tell the Mrs?
Only problem is can gemini hear?
Like that bird on the telly's dad, he probably hates how expensive funerals have become.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony
I am only using Gemini for a bit of fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Ask it about the firebottle kin, and it is clear that the info is dragged up from HiFi forums.
What was more fun was asking Gemini about Macca, Jimbo, Pygmy Poney and myself.
I know it got information about me slightly wrong, but it was amusing/interesting nonetheless.
I'm surprised that didn't break it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH