Any Digital Impressions of the Caiman yet?

Thanks for your reply Marscay, very useful.

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the 7520 was the same as the 7510 with a phono out and USB connection?

The whole modding thing is difficult to stack, as obviously the DACMagic can get modded as well, but the advantage of the Caiman is it requires no further expenditure beyond the basic unit.

I take your point with following numbers, a DAC can have awesome specs but sound dry as hell. I didn't get on with the Benchmark DAC1 personally, and I'm definitely in the minority there. However I do have a pretty revealing system so there is a real drop in resolution I will definitely notice it.

I wonder if there is there anyone who has heard the DACMagic and the Caiman running side by side who can comment further?

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Originally Posted by marscay

I used a DACMagic for a week and i compared it to a 7510 that i also had, there wasn't much in it but the DACMagic had more detail although it sounded a little thin to me.

There is not much doubt to me that the 7520 is a better DAC than the DACMagic imo however and once you add some better opamps it is clearly a better performer and the 'Caiman' improves on the 7520 again by quite a bit.

You can't really go by SNR numbers and the like, some of the enthausiast soundcards (Xonar/Auzentech) have good DAC's and decent specs but they still don't cut the mustard for me.

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Originally Posted by Junglist

I wonder if there is there anyone who has heard the DACMagic and the Caiman running side by side who can comment further?

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I have not had the opportunity to test the Caiman against any other DACs below £1K. However, the comparisons with far more expensive ones have been piling up in my email box.
One should remember that the DM is a Chinese mass market made product, whilst the Caiman isn't.

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Originally Posted by Sensimilia

I have not had the opportunity to test the Caiman against any other DACs below £1K. However, the comparisons with far more expensive ones have been piling up in my email box.
One should remember that the DM is a Chinese mass market made product, whilst the Caiman isn't.

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Where is the Caiman made?

i was to impatient to wait til i got home to have a listen so i brought it to work

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/w...9e14f945-1.jpg

its not the ideal situatuion to get an impresion of sound quality... i dont really like the nad kit and it doesnt gel at all well with the monitor audio speakers we sell .. to my ear at least! but once the beresford was in there was def improved dynamics... i just want to go home now!

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Originally Posted by therockst4r

Where is the Caiman made?

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In Taiwan, and mostly hand produced in small quantity. Each unit is individually tested afterwards and then carefully and lovingly packed in eco friendly packaging.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sensimilia

I have not had the opportunity to test the Caiman against any other DACs below £1K. However, the comparisons with far more expensive ones have been piling up in my email box.
One should remember that the DM is a Chinese mass market made product, whilst the Caiman isn't.

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Thanks for your reply Stan.

I don't really understand DAC design, but I was wondering if you could tell me how much the chip itself contributes towards the sound of the DAC, and how much is due to the other elements? With respect to the DACMagic I was wondering whether it running two of (nearly) the same chip provides any intrinsic benefit over the single chip in your design. I understand that the Caiman has other elements like the op-amps and caps which sound like they have been intelligently chosen to contribute to the overall sound quality.

I find the resolution from the DACMagic to be very impressive but I do feel it lacks a bit of sweetness in the treble and has a slightly digital feel which I am looking to improve on. I have compared it to a ~£2000 DAC which uses the same chipset and it sounded identical.

I am very tempted by the Caiman at it's attractive price, I guess I'm just waiting for a few more user reviews to come in.

Thanks :)

Junglist

Someone asked me why I used the WM8716 instead of the WM8740, and I replied 'go figure' ;). The specs of the WM8740 might be better on paper, but bolting a NE5534 at its analogue output neuters the benefits gained earlier on.

I'd be curious to hear a fitted WM8741 - apparently the "best dac chip in the world" (according to Linn...) ;)

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Originally Posted by Junglist

The whole modding thing is difficult to stack, as obviously the DACMagic can get modded as well, but the advantage of the Caiman is it requires no further expenditure beyond the basic unit.

I take your point with following numbers, a DAC can have awesome specs but sound dry as hell. I didn't get on with the Benchmark DAC1 personally, and I'm definitely in the minority there. However I do have a pretty revealing system so there is a real drop in resolution I will definitely notice it.

I wonder if there is there anyone who has heard the DACMagic and the Caiman running side by side who can comment further?

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Big advantage of the 7520 & Caiman is that you can modify the opamps yourself in 5mins, the DACMagic doesn't have socketed opamps afaik.

I am feeding an Arcam AV9 with the Caiman and it sounds wonderful, from my limited testing so far it's pulling more resolution than the AV9 so that's a pretty decent complement right there considering it's £3.5k price tag just a year ago.

"I have compared it to a ~£2000 DAC which uses the same chipset and it sounded identical."

junglist, which dac was that?

Stan, what is the difference between the WM8741 and the WM8740?

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Originally Posted by Junglist

Thanks for your reply Marscay, very useful.

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the 7520 was the same as the 7510 with a phono out and USB connection?

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Not too long ago I repaired a TC7510, LM4562 op-amps etc, nice bit of kit.
Going by memory the standard 7520 bettered the modded 7510 to my ears, going to Caiman spec brought quite a big difference over the standard 7520 in my system all through the range

I briefly heard a stock Dacmagic, didn't really rate it sonically

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Originally Posted by therockst4r

Stan, what is the difference between the WM8741 and the WM8740?

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Their pin compatible , the 41 is slightly better specced

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Originally Posted by Sensimilia

In Taiwan, and mostly hand produced in small quantity. Each unit is individually tested afterwards and then carefully and lovingly packed in eco friendly packaging.

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Slightly off topic, so forgive me - Stan, your website mentions "Limited Edition" - how many Caimans will be made?

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Originally Posted by Alex_UK

Stan, your website mentions "Limited Edition" - how many Caimans will be made?

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A limited amount.

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Originally Posted by Sensimilia

A limited amount.

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I asked for that, didn't I! :lol:

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Originally Posted by therockst4r

Stan, what is the difference between the WM8741 and the WM8740?

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the linn majik ds has 1 8740 and the acurate has 2 8741's.... i hvae no idea of the implications of this in technical terms but i can tell you the acurate sounds frustratingly better than the majik

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Originally Posted by Sensimilia

A limited amount.

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An amount limited by the quantity he can sell :)

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Originally Posted by Labarum

An amount limited by the quantity he can sell :)

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I am actually down to my last twenty something pieces. If there is still a demand I might make a few more. Some people have indicated that they would be on holiday in August, so they couldn't order or needed the money for holiday spending. They were hoping to order one in September.

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Originally Posted by Sensimilia

I am actually down to my last twenty something pieces.

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I might want another.

But too much changing in my life at the moment

Just concentrate on the upgraded power supply Stan!

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Originally Posted by Covenant

Just concentrate on the upgraded power supply Stan!

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I assume you mean the Caiman PSU.

Absolutely-the job wont be complete until that arrives. I suppose you will be reluctant to get it reviewed unless it has its own power supply.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

I suppose you will be reluctant to get it reviewed unless it has its own power supply.

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If the reviewers are to believed, there are two other far better DACs from the UK. The clinical accuracy, rock solid bass, and detailed musical extraction of my DAC is not what magazine reviewers perceive as a winning formula. So I reckon my products are more suited for audiophiles who want to hear and feel warts and all, rather than the general public.

Stan

Spot on about the clinical aspect, especially with the Caiman ....it is really showing up some poor recordings and less than adequate compressed files.

I was listening to a Sam Brown CD the other day, and for the first time ever thought how horribly sibilant her voice sounded (just on one particular track) – as I had never heard this before, I immediately “blamed” my new equipment (not necessarily the Caiman, as I have also recently moved to a Creek amp, and changed interconnects) – then I A/B'd the analogue and digital outputs on the CD player and realised it was the Caiman's fault – it was revealing the bad recording – which for me, is exactly what I want – the truth! Keep it up Stan.

Can you clarify the point on the PSU with the Caiman - is there an upgraded one to follow? I'm considering replacing the figure 8 lead, but I'll hold off if there's a new unit in development.

For what it's worth, the same unforgiving characteristics also apply to the Tirna-ised 7520. I have a Tony Bennett/KD Lang CD ripped to FLAC on PC which I have played many times before through standard 7520 without problem. Last night one track came up (on random playback) with continual slight but audible 'white noise' all through the track. Next track was fine so replayed the problem track and there it was again - very revealing, perhaps in more sense than one.
Cheers,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sensimilia

If the reviewers are to believed, there are two other far better DACs from the UK. The clinical accuracy, rock solid bass, and detailed musical extraction of my DAC is not what magazine reviewers perceive as a winning formula. So I reckon my products are more suited for audiophiles who want to hear and feel warts and all, rather than the general public.

Stan

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I guess that's why your products have found such favour with Naim Audio users.

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Originally Posted by marscay

Spot on about the clinical aspect, especially with the Caiman ....it is really showing up some poor recordings and less than adequate compressed files.

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Dunno 'bout that so much...128Kbs Napster streams sound bloody great, all the involvement and musicality is there...

Oasis sounds a bit pants though!

There really is a more open window though, warts and all.
Works for me.

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Originally Posted by Spur07

I guess that's why your products have found such favour with Naim Audio users.

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i agree!

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Originally Posted by Gazjam

Oasis sounds a bit pants though!

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theres a good reason for that!

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Originally Posted by hamish_gill

theres a good reason for that!

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Could it be that the Gallagher bros grew up listening to The Beatles on their dads crappy little BSR changer equipped record player, complete with 10p selotaped on the headshell and using the same flip over needle it came with in 1961, cranked up to #11? At least that's what the Oasis 'sound' suggests to me.
:lolsign::lolsign:

ps: Seems that the general consensus re the recent LP reissues is they are just as compressed and 'orrible as the seedies.

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Originally Posted by REM

. . . crappy little BSR changer equipped record player . . .

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Steady on. In the house my wife inherited from her Aunt in Cyprus we have a Pye Black Box

http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl...-8&sa=N&tab=wi

A very nice BSR changer equipped record player that I am looking forward to having some fun with. It has the original cartridge that will only play 78s, and probably the original stylus; but if I take a 78 out of the lower cabinet of the accoustic gramophone in the dining room of the said house it plays beautifully.

What's your problem?

:)

I'm new here, so firstly, hello all. :)
I ordered a 7520 last Sunday. Stan rang me the next day to ask if I was interested in the Caiman instead as he had just added it to the site (a big thank you to Stan for that) so I went with the Caiman.
I bought the DAC primarily for headphone listening on computer and have tried that with good results. I also tried it speculatively with my very lacklustre cd system: A very aged Arcam Alpha, a middle aged, middle range Yamaha amp and rather elderly Tannoy r2 speakers. Since then I have barely turned it off; doing the classic 'rediscovering my cd collection'. Bearing in mind the obvious limitations of the other components, here are a few impressions:
Run in period: I have always been sceptical regarding this, but I must say that over the week the sound has gradually improved; out of the box I was impressed but not *that* impressed. I thought the upper treble sounded slightly ragged when I first heard it, that has definitely cleared up, as has imaging.
Detail: One of my first impressions was that I was no longer hearing 'Strings' but many instruments being played in concert. I found that with choral music (eg 'Transcriptions' by Accentus) I could hear the different characters and timbres of the voices making up the choir in a way I have never been able to with a recording before (even on very much better equipment!)
Imaging: This was the biggest 'ear opener'. On, for example, the Berglund recording with the Bournemouth S.O of Sibelius' 5th Symphony the strings were very discretely located in space... 1st and 2nd violins, violas and cellos just where they should be. I think this is related to the much improved detail described above.
I had a disconcerting experience on a couple of recordings (track 7 of 'Beyond Skin' by Nitin Sawhney being one) of sound that seemed to be coming from a position well away from the speakers (far away to the right in the cited example) This doesn't make much sense to me but it is what I heard.
I am surprised to find that I am listening at a lower volume than in the past, I don't know why that should be, I seem to be hearing a lot more than formerly.
The slight mixed blessing is that whilst some recordings are like the best seat in the house, or even a private recital, others are now unpleasant to listen to; that is about the recordings rather than the dac though.
I have no idea if these impressions will be useful to anyone else, I guess not many others will be using the dac alongside such decrepit equipment. Maybe it is useful to know that there is such a radical improvement even with such an 'unglamorous' system?
Finally I would like to ask a question; when I bought the Caiman it was with the intention of using it in due course as the pre amp for a pair of active speakers. I am going to have a listen to the Quad Active 11L soon. Has anyone any experience of using the 7520 in this way? Any comments about the Quads or any recommendations for other speakers?
--
David

Welcome "Boris"

You can add your real first name and other details to a "Signature" if you choose.

Thank you for your write up. Stan's little boxes transform many a system.

The Caimen will certainly not hold the Quad Actives back.

I have not heard them, but have been canvassing for views.

The are various near field active monitors sold by music shops that could be used domestically - they don't look as pretty as the Quads, and may be too analytical.

Others may offer suggestions and opinions on that.

Explore here

http://www.gear4music.com/Studio_Monitors/Tannoy.html

http://www.gear4music.com/Studio_Monitors/Fostex.html

http://www.gear4music.com/Studio_Monitors/Genelec.html

Hi Brian,
Thanks for the welcome and your comments. The links are helpful.
Another speaker in the same vein is the Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 Active which is made by the same folk as the Quads and seems to use the same transducers, I don't know if the internals are different (but the price certainly is.) i don't much like the way they look though
http://www.htfr.com/more-info/MR238071
I guess in the end, I need to go and hear them :)
--
David

My Caiman was supposed to come today, but the mail person didn't think I was home and left a redelivery notice :/

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Originally Posted by spider_boris

I guess in the end, I need to go and hear them :)

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Let me know what your ears tell you, David.

There is another way through this minefield

http://www.avihifi.co.uk/adm9.html

Domestically acceptable active speakers with integral DAC - just add a digital source. Mind you, over £1000, and you have already spent a good chunk of that on a DAC.


http://www.avihifi.co.uk/neutron.html

£1300 but includes sub woofer which is essential because it houses the electronics.

This forum (AOS) is where Stan's Fans hang out.

Ash's Fans (Ash is Mr AVI) congregate here

http://hddaudio.net/punbb/index.php

I would love to have a direct comparison between the AVI solution and a Standac driving something like the Quad Actives.

I have heard rumours a digital Quad Active is on the way - it would make sense.

Or, if you have serious money, you buy Meridian.

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Ash's Fans (Ash is Mr AVI) congregated here

http://hddaudio.net/punbb/index.php

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OMG - no comment!! :mental:

:lol:

So that's where these, errm, 'characters' hang out now (yourself excluded in any derogatory reference)... I'm glad to see that Timmy-boy has found himself a 'happy home'. Thanks for the info, Brian!

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

So that's where these, errm, 'characters' hang out now . . .

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Now, now Marco. Live and let live.

I am presently listening to

Title: AVRO Klassiek Beste NL MP3 256
URL: http://opml.radiotime.com/Tune.ashx?...e&PartnerId=16

Edvard Grieg - Radu Lupu, London Symphony Orchestra, André Previn - Pianoconcert in a op.16 (Decca 414432-2)

And very nice it is too.

It is better than my Quad FM Tuner.

<Labarum dives into bunker and pulls down hatch.>

Hehehe... Brian, it's just after having read the same old blinkered 'pearls of wisdom' from the assembled 'cognoscenti' (all six of them!), one can't help but giggle. Check out this 'beauty' from AJ:

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Just to put the record straight, I feel I should point out that Tubes/valve amplifiers, although not hi fi because they are too distorted and don't have enough headroom, are actually less distorted than a record player cartridge.

Friends of my parents had Quad 2s and ESL57s and I thought that marvellous and like all this old stuff, I can quite understand why people still buy it and enjoy it, I have old cars and enjoy them, but what irritates me is when it is suggested that it somehow compares with the best of today.

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And that would be ADM9s, I presume?

Oh, FFS!! :lol: :lol:

Anyway, as long as they're happy!

Quote:

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I am presently listening to

Title: AVRO Klassiek Beste NL MP3 256
URL: http://opml.radiotime.com/Tune.ashx?...e&PartnerId=16

Edvard Grieg - Radu Lupu, London Symphony Orchestra, André Previn - Pianoconcert in a op.16 (Decca 414432-2)

And very nice it is too.

It is better than my Quad FM Tuner.

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I'm sure it is, my friend, so enjoy! :cool:

Marco.

My Caiman arrived on Saturday so I attached it to some headphones and to my amp and set it playing to start breaking in. Then the phone rang with a party invite so I put the music on repeat and went out.

Came back Sunday evening and thought I'd listen to a couple of tracks on the 'phones to see how it was sounding...

3 hours later :lolsign: I had renewed respect for my venerable Beyer DT531 'phones. The Caiman drives them superbly. Even Pendulum didn't phase them. In fact Pendulum was something of a revelation. That bass kicks like a mule! So deep... so tight.

I played loads of stuff both old and new and I don't think I have ever had the hairs stand up on the back of my neck so many times in one session. I think I will be doing a lot more headphone listening from now on.

Transport duties were of course performed by the Transporter using a Mark Grant digital interconnect. I can't say yet whether I prefer the Caiman to the Transporter as the latter doesn't have a headphone output and nor does my amp.

I'll report on how it sounds through the Croft and the Zu's after it's run in for a few more days - and how it compares to the Transporter. Suffice it to say anyone who needs a digital-only headphone amp is likely to be very pleased with this one.

From what I've heard so far on 'phones at least it firmly wacks the butt of the Lavry DA10.

I also recieved my Caiman on Saturday and immediately swapped out my modded 7510 (ordered it on Friday pm so big thanks to Stan).

Listened Sunday and today and yes it is a big improvement over the 7510 mod 21 and 22 (4032 opamp, wire mod and 10,000 input cap). The sound is bigger, clearer and flows better than before. I can honestly say that I have not enjoyed listening to any of my previous setups as much (inc Naim etc).

I am really happy with the PC system comprising Squeezebox/Caiman/Avondale A260 and JM Lab 926 speakers and am finding that I can hear details on familiar tracks that I have not heard before.

I also had a go at Foobar through the USB into the Caiman and found very little change in the sound quality over using the wireless Squeezebox. The USB may have a slight advantage but I could be imagining this.

Bass is a little soft but I think that this will change when its been on a few more days.

Really great product Stan and I suspect will take some beating.

Regards

Chris

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Originally Posted by technobear

My Caiman arrived on Saturday so I attached it to some headphones and to my amp and set it playing to start breaking in. Then the phone rang with a party invite so I put the music on repeat and went out.

Came back Sunday evening and thought I'd listen to a couple of tracks on the 'phones to see how it was sounding...

3 hours later :lolsign: I had renewed respect for my venerable Beyer DT531 'phones. The Caiman drives them superbly. Even Pendulum didn't phase them. In fact Pendulum was something of a revelation. That bass kicks like a mule! So deep... so tight.

I played loads of stuff both old and new and I don't think I have ever had the hairs stand up on the back of my neck so many times in one session. I think I will be doing a lot more headphone listening from now on.

Transport duties were of course performed by the Transporter using a Mark Grant digital interconnect. I can't say yet whether I prefer the Caiman to the Transporter as the latter doesn't have a headphone output and nor does my amp.

I'll report on how it sounds through the Croft and the Zu's after it's run in for a few more days - and how it compares to the Transporter. Suffice it to say anyone who needs a digital-only headphone amp is likely to be very pleased with this one.

From what I've heard so far on 'phones at least it firmly wacks the butt of the Lavry DA10.

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Wow, I'll watch this one with interest! :)

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Originally Posted by Spur07

"I have compared it [DACMagic] to a ~£2000 DAC which uses the same chipset and it sounded identical."

junglist, which dac was that?

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Linn Majik DS (with the upgraded Dynamik PSU)

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Originally Posted by Gazjam

Wow, I'll watch this one with interest! :)

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technobear,

i'd also be extremely interested in how the caiman compares to a transporter through amp/speakers. i've heard plenty of good stuff about the transporter. can you do a quick head to head when you next get a chance?

cheers


spur07

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Originally Posted by Junglist

Linn Majik DS (with the upgraded Dynamik PSU)

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personally i think the 7520 sounds more akin to the linn majik ds i didnt think the dacmagic sounded as realistic as either ...

... as a side point - the majik ds is a bit more than just a dac.. although i do agree with the fact that the linn sq wise isnt £1600 better than the 7520 and it is expensive anyway you look at it (it is linn after all). and in fact if it is better at all i have only ever picked out the odd bit of song where i have liked the majik more.. and i have wondered if that is down to cables
where the majik wins out over any dac for me is the fact it streams music very well and doesnt need an external dac to sound good, unlike most other direct streaming divices

That's cool, most people really rate the Majik, I don't know what I was missing but I'm glad because it saved me a lot of money :)

I wrote a review on another site but in short, I found that my Sonos ZP90 + DACMagic was, for me, on my system, indistinguishable from the Linn Majik DS despite many hours of blind/sighted testing. The Majik is a great deal more expensive than the Sonos/DM combination, so it went back to the supplier. I understand that there may be subtle differences between them that I can't perceive that to other people might make the extra outlay worth it.

Anyway I'd better stop hijacking the thread now!

Cheers

Matthew

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Originally Posted by hamish_gill

personally i think the 7520 sounds more akin to the linn majik ds i didnt think the dacmagic sounded as realistic as either ...

... as a side point - the majik ds is a bit more than just a dac.. although i do agree with the fact that the linn sq wise isnt £1600 better than the 7520 and it is expensive anyway you look at it (it is linn after all). and in fact if it is better at all i have only ever picked out the odd bit of song where i have liked the majik more.. and i have wondered if that is down to cables
where the majik wins out over any dac for me is the fact it streams music very well and doesnt need an external dac to sound good, unlike most other direct streaming divices

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How does the Caiman compare to the Beresford 7510 in terms of bass? I read on another forum that it was their opinion that the Caiman was brilliant in many respects but was a little bass shy?

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Originally Posted by daveyboy

How does the Caiman compare to the Beresford 7510 in terms of bass? I read on another forum that it was their opinion that the Caiman was brilliant in many respects but was a little bass shy?

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The Caiman has a flat frequency response from 10Hz to 20KHz.
If you are looking for something that has a modified response with say a boosted bass and/or treble, then the Caiman would not be of any use to you.