I know I shouldn't bite but.....
Kevin.
I was referring to this.
“But that still doesn't stop me from listening to bad music that's superbly recorded, or superb music that's badly recorded.”
I may have misunderstood your meaning here but given you’ve covered recording quality I assumed that music genre was what you meant by “bad music”.
If this assumption is incorrect then perhaps you would care to explain exactly what you mean by “bad music”.
“What relevance does your taste in music have to do with anything?”
Well, not very much. However, given the original context of the quote you responded to, and the above, and considering in other debates I’ve had concerning “bad music” which usually revolve around genre, I was trying to point out that while some may consider particular genres of music less worthy of being heard on hi fidelity equipment, I don’t.
This should have been made obvious by the next piece of the post you’ve picked out.
“What I was trying to point out was when confronted with the HiFi/Music snob who insists that he can only bear to listen to Classical music on his multi thousand pound system it might be worth pointing out at some point that he probably listens to the same over produced, over-sampled redbook quality recordings as everyone else.”
I don’t think the general meaning of my post was overly obscure because Marco seems to have understood it without problem.
Anyway, once you have clarified what you meant by “bad music” then we will be in a better position to assess the relevance of my response.
“That may or may not be true, but I still don't understand your argument...are you saying playback equipment makes no difference if the source material is the same?”
No.
I am saying that a great deal of classical music (the assumed to be not “bad” music and therefore more worthy of hi fidelity reproduction in some peoples views; a view which you may or may not hold given it is yet to be established but I have assumed, rightfully or wrongfully; phew, hard work this) is often recorded at the same standard as the “bad” music and in theory, provided the replay equipment can cope adequately with redbook, wouldn’t have any less quality of sound at replay than the good music.
I did go on to make a separate case for non digital recording and playback.
“This is a pure straw man argument.”
I don’t know what this means. What is a straw man argument?
“You sound like you are excluding yourself from any of that, when in fact, you are doing exactly what you are accusing those hypothetical people of doing.”
Do I?
I did at least manage to make myself clear on this point then. The only fact here is I posted.
Am I?
Try as I might I cannot find any accusations in my statement.
”Hey...you switched to a particular format for reasons that make sense to you, and you're rationalizing...like people tend to do.”
True.
”If the lossless file route makes your life easier and you miraculously believe it kills every other format at the same time...big double win for you!!!! But to relegate everyone else who hasn't made this epiphany to deluded fools status is, well...deluded. You're trying way to hard, so I'm inclined to believe there's a little resentment lurking there.”
Please point out where I have written that I “believe it kills every other format.”
I don’t believe in miracles and I certainly don’t believe in miraculous belief.
Please show me where I have even hinted that anyone who doesn’t follow my “epiphany” is a deluded fool.
I’m glad you at least notice and appreciate that I do put some effort into my posts.
You are of course free to believe what you like. However, the only lurking resentment I can detect is in the tone of your post; about what exactly, and why, I have no idea.
Pride of ownership.
Sure it’s nice while it lasts.
“Things give me comfort.” Hmm, personally I think that’s a bit sad. Things give me pleasure, sometimes, but more often than not because of something that thing can do rather than it just being another thing to own. Still, each to his own.
Right, my turn now.
“It fosters more than just laziness and poor communication skills. How many people do you see making transactions (store, bank, etc) with their ipods still playing in their ears. That is disrespectful and downright rude. This is now the norm.”
What absolute rubbish.
I see very few people behaving in this manner.
To be the norm, more people than not would have to be making commercial transactions with ipods still playing in their ears. The people who behave in this manner are a minority and I would suggest a very small minority at that.
While you may find it irritating, as I do at times, unless they are communicating directly with you, in which case you politely request they remove the device when speaking to you, I really can’t see why what other people choose to stick in their ears should bother you.
“We are in the age of convenience and instant gratification.”
Might not all ages have been like this? Couldn’t it just be that convenience and gratification are more easily obtained in this age, or is this some deep moral outrage surfacing?
Listening to your ipod while doing everything else is not multitasking...it's doing everything half-assed.”
This depends on whether you believe listening to music is a task. If it isn’t a task, then it shouldn’t interfere with the conscious effort required to carry out other tasks.
Would you for example forbid the listening to music on a car stereo on the grounds that it interferes with the driver’s concentration?
I carry out a great many tasks that require fairly intense concentration while listening to music and I haven’t noticed any deterioration in outcome because I was listening to music at the time.
Isn’t this complaint about those who have music playing through ear buds more about the person who perceives the behavior viewing the others partial isolation from the environment as anti social?
One might be forgiven for believing one has stumbled on the reactionary old bastards thread from reading some of the above.
I use a mobile phone to text and yes, I have on occasions used “text speak” I don’t consider myself as illiterate or unable to communicate effectively through other mediums. There is a very good reason why people use text rather than speak directly; it’s a lot cheaper!
Text speak, or word abbreviation is a lot quicker to type. If for example they were using Morse code would the practice be received with the same disparaging comments?
Is there any evidence that the use of text speak is having a long term effect on the relevant generations grasp of the English language and would it really matter if such an effect was evident?
Anything that encourages the young in particular to communicate should be encouraged in my view. Just because another generation looks down upon the practice because they don’t consider it to be “proper” English doesn’t lessen its value as a means of communication. Provided the recipient can understand the message I really don’t see what the outrage is about.
I have used a music player with ear buds on a number of occasions and yes it was in public (instant credibility loss). Perhaps if those who so readily condemn the practice had to endure the constant drone and hum of machinery day in day out they might also prefer to listen to something else.
It may come as a shock but we don’t all live and work in ideal circumstances. The young in particular would seem to be at a disadvantage in today’s society and the comments concerning dehumanization and lack of discernment with regard to quality and manners would seem to be directed primarily at a younger generation.
If there is any truth in these opinions then perhaps it may be well to bear in mind that as the “elders” and supposedly more responsible we have allowed society to get like this. In fact, it’s been my generation that has constantly promoted technology and convenience above other values.
It’s great that some of us believe we have reached a comfortable, relatively affluent and happy stage in our lives. I would suggest before you sit back in comfort with a glass of good wine in your hand or your meal consisting of “good quality” ingredients and place the needle in the groove of your well recorded vinyl music (no this isn’t directed at any one person, it’s a general comment relevant to many of us I suspect) directing a stream of phlegm at the dehumanized, text speak, ipod generation, you try to remember you were also young once and maybe even less well off and equally antisocial.
Finally, phew, another wall of text; I must be bored.
More of the same, less than before.
Well, some of this won’t make much sense since the relevant posts have been deleted despite assurances otherwise. However, those of you who read the posts will follow the humour of the following. Hopefully those concerned in the deleted posts will as well.
Ian Walker.
;)
Marco and Steve Toy.
I don’t like having to do this, but if you two are going to continue bickering about who is boss I’m going to have to send my mate Sunny over to keep the peace.
Say “hello” to Sunny
http://www.mediafire.com/i/?momimtzlz3m
If you both sit there quietly and behave yourselves it will all be fine :eyebrows:
Kevin.
”Perhaps you should have asked that question before going off on your long triad? ha ha But then again, we wouldn't be able to add a little spice to what is..let's face it...a pretty docile forum.”
What, and miss the opportunity of going at it like a bull in a china shop with half the necessary information and making a fool of myself in the process! Why reverse the habit of a lifetime? :lol:
Most forums to do with luxury goods tend to be fairly docile in my experience; something to do with the age and social/economic position of the contributors perhaps.
I enjoy participating in a couple of the on line video game forums I visit and moderate.
These forums are largely populated by very young males (maybe 5% female) and if you don’t offend easily can be a lot of fun and quite instructive with regard to the views of those younger members of our society who post comments.
However, they are far from docile and it’s easy to find ones tolerance of post content and construction stretched to breaking point.
(I’m in the process of writing an article on on-line gaming; sort of “a guide” for the elder generation who seem to believe these often violent and very aggressive games are somehow corrupting the youth of today. I’m the top UK player in the main league of the particular game I concentrate on, a fact I’m enormously proud of with given my age) There is just some immensely childish pleasure to be had when after an online clan match one of you opponents types on the HUD (Heads up display) “gg, how old are you guys?” and you reply “gg thx, I’m 55, ***** is a 38 year old female. The usual response is “F**k I’ve just been fragged by a granddad and my mum!! (my usual match partner is a 38 year old Dutch women and she’s deadly) I know, the things that give us pleasure eh :mental:
I digress.
Yep, I agree with pretty much all of the section. I’ve got some of those re-mastered rock music CD’s.
It’s a shame that the recording engineers didn’t take more care when recording this stuff because some of it is now considered to be must have classic rock. As an example, I replaced my vinyl copy of Stand Up by Jethro Tull with the re-mastered CD version. Some of the tracks seem to have fared better than others under the re-mastering engineer’s hands/ears. The first track is barely listenable to imo.
Yes my categorisation of music/HiFi enthusiasts was bi-polar but this was deliberate as I’m sure you realize.
HiFi snobbery is rife and particularly difficult to get past given the faith versus science nature of the debates, especially when it comes to purchase power. The last resort of the faithful is always “well, that’s what I hear” or “that’s what I believe” and the following implication is often that there is something wrong with your hearing or your system if you don’t agree with them.
It’s very difficult to subject an unwilling subject to the final solution, the ABX test.
“Although your assertion that classical music is as badly recorded as anything else is one I find debatable (a large symphony recording with poor dynamic range would be unlistenable on any equipment), I would still say that better playback equipment is still capable of squeezing out the maximum fidelity of even a less-than-perfect recording than poor playback equipment can.”
I can’t argue much with this either; hence my dislike of listening to recorded classical music. What I find irritating is it is often the classical music/Hi Fi buff who waxes lyrical about the near concert performance they get from their replay system. It has nothing to do with being a fan of one particular medium over another; it has to do with the science behind audio reproduction.
In the case of the analogue recording or hi res digital their listening environment and equipment noise floor probably wipes out the harmonics/whatever they say they are hearing.
Now I’m a modern music fan primarily (I also play an instrument which may help or hinder depending on your view point) and even I can tell from going to live classical/un-amplified music concerts that a comparison between live and recorded, no matter what the playback medium verges on the ludicrous for all but the tone deaf.
It is just so unlikely that the recording equipment even captured the higher harmonics and the infra bass frequencies let alone them having the equipment able to reproduce them. We are talking amps with massive bandwidth, speakers as big as fridge freezers and listening rooms similar in size the original venue to mention a few of the obvious problems.
But, yes in theory, better kit has the potential of squeezing the last drop of information/emotion from a recording. However, you can’t reproduce what isn’t there.
These days I tend to smile sweetly and let them believe whatever makes them happy but I still enjoy debating the matter providing the dogma doesn’t outweigh the science.
Regarding the remaining audio comments……..
Drama, I can do that.
Knee jerk! Whole body jerk with me :lolsign:
I do have a few friends who do tend to purchase luxury goods just for the sake of ownership and the prestige they believe it gives them.
However, I think I owe you an apology or at least a friendly handshake for my “a bit sad” comment
I’m as acquisitive as the next man so any pity I have I should probably keep for myself.
“Taking that to its logical conclusion, I guess you have no use for "art"?”
Hmm, a tricky one this.
“because of something that thing can do” is the key point for me. Art can elicit emotion.
But in general no, I’m a bit of a cultural peasant when it comes “classical” art in particular.
I’m not sure why exactly, but I don’t approve of the “ownership” of art in general and certainly not making large profits through its sale. Art, even the stuff I don’t appreciate if it is generally acknowledged to be of great merit should be available to the people and in the custody of the state.
(Am I beginning to sound like citizen Smith here)
I’ll be back with some comments concerning our degenerate youth and anti social society later.
Oh yeah, he’s a long haired rotweiler with a tail.
