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Hi again,
I was going from the photo and of Al's in post 66 of this thread. Same value components.
I think the idea was to cut some of the lower frequencies to the Super 8's. But this is my first speaker build, so probably just me getting it wrong.
The eminence have about 45 hours use and the Super 8's now have about 12.
Thanks for your help
Posting a piccy might help.
Chris:)
Here you go;
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/w...510resized.jpg
ATM I have the two drivers completely separate, and on separate amps. Before I had the input on the low pass filter connected to the binding posts and the output to the beta 15. And the full range as the photo, negative straight to the negative on the Super 8, the positive goes to the cap and res then binding posts.
Is this ok?
Thanks
Sorry Ian,just saw that I didn't reply to you.My apologies.London is a bit far away I'm afraid! I'm in Leeds (Sometimes,but where my main system is) and Dunfermline (most of the time) There are some DIY meets coming up.The first is at Eggborough Power Station social club,I think on the 16th of June.This is near Doncaster.There is another in September,a 2 day event at Owston,again near Doncaster.Check out the WD and Audio-Talk forums for details.If you can make either of these,I can bring the amps.Al usually brings his system,so you could get a good idea by playing my amps through his baffles.Otherwise,if you're up north anytime,get in touch.Quote:
Originally Posted by evozero
Ian.
From what i can see, you have got it right. 150uf and 2.2 ohm resistors.
I would go back to just using your tube amps and try some higher value resistors to attenuate the ANs a bit more. My ANs were in two different cabinets before the open baffles, and did sound rather harsh for a while.
You are using 2R2 resistors now, which is the same as i use with fully run in drivers.. You could try 3R3 or 4R7 to see if they have the desired effect. When the ANs settle in a bit you should be able to revert to 2R2 or thereabouts. It's early days yet.
The driver will take several hundred hours to fully run in. It will test your patience in the meantime.
Also worth noting that you have a noise and harshness inducing white ceramic sound coffin in series with your AN driver. The sound will improve greatly when this is replaced with a decent resistor, e.g.
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mills.html
:)
Chris.
The white coffins are ok. Mills are a bit pricey to be experimenting with different values at this stage. Expect to buy several pairs over the next few months.
I've been using my speakers for nearly two years now, and have tried different types of resistors. Maybe its time to try some Mills again now i've settled on a permanent value. Didn't notice much benefit last time.
Hi All,
Ali, thanks for the offer, but you are right. We live a bit too far apart. Even the DIY meets are too far without a car. Are there any London meets?
The speakers.
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/w...1050517res.jpg
I have them nearly finished, covered but awaiting run in and crossover mods.
Did quite a lot of listening over the weekend,Wow! They do an amazing job of disappearing , and no box colouring the sound. Still using two amps to balance the sound, I don't mind for now.
But before I start changing components I would like to understand a little more;
So the 150uf just cuts the bass frequencies to the Super 8 to lighten the load and allow it to focus on upper and mid frequencies, and the Resistor adjusts the output level compared to the Beta 15, is this about right?
Cheers for now
Ian
Yes, thats how i understand it, and also how it seems to work in practice.Quote:
So the 150uf just cuts the bass frequencies to the Super 8 to lighten the load and allow it to focus on upper and mid frequencies, and the Resistor adjusts the output level compared to the Beta 15, is this about right?
Depending on which speakers you have been using, it may take a while to adapt to the sound from these, quite apart from the running in process.
Absolutely, Al - and you also need good quality, 'even-handed' valve amps to drive them. They are very musical sounding speakers, but ruthlessly revealing (as are all OBs)!
Marco.
Indeed.And if you think thet sound good now,just wait till the drivers run in....
Hi All,
I thought I would check in and give a progress report, and ask a bit more advice ;)
I have another fifty hours on them now, and until today still running Bi Amp so I can adjust the levels between the drivers. Valve for the super 8's and my Sony solid state for the beta's. I am so impressed with them, the lack of box colouration makes such a difference. The way they let you hear every detail and how each mix is different, very revealing.
My only issue is matching the output's, so earlier I connected them to the valve amps only. The super 8's were still way too loud, so i added more resistors in series to bring the level down. I got up to 23 Ohms before running out of 7w's type. So I'm off to Maplin tomorrow to buy some higher values. The balance was getting close to the Bi amp levels I set, but I am worried something is wrong or the super 8's are very different to Al's std 8's. Or that they just require a much higher value resistor.
I cant see more running in will affect the output levels so much, the harshness yes.
What do you guys think?
Cheers
Ian
Ian.
Sounds like something is not quite right here.
I wouldn't buy any more resistors just yet.
The output of our ANs is apparently the same. No one has ever said that mine sound like the description you have given. So there must be something different.
Do you notice any difference when adding these resistors?
Could you post a sketch of how yours are wired, so we can at least confirm that we are talking about the same thing.
If all else fails, i'm prepared to send you my spare pair of well used AN drivers for comparison. Quite frankly i'm puzzled at the mo.
Thanks Al,
I have the layout as below, running with a 4.6Ohm resistor for now. I did notice the levels coming down the larger the resistance. Then Something dawned on me, you had your AN's in two cabinets before the OB. I am assuming you used them full range? Mine have only ran with this configuration, with the capacitor filtering the low frequencies. Maybe they haven't really run in because of this. So now I have just the super 8's running off the sand amp with no capacitor or resistor covered with blankets, playing roots manuva loud. This will hopefully loosen them up!
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/w...overlayout.jpg
Yes, there wont be a lot of cone movement above the cap frequency. Hopefully you've arrived at a possible answer. Fingers crossed.:)
Hi All,
I have been running the AN for at least eight hours a day, full range. The sound hasn't changed much. So ran both drivers off the Sony amp, with the tone controls at 0 the sound is thin and bright,with little bass. But if i turn the bass to +10 it is much better balanced. Does this point to the crossover, maybe the sub filter? I tried the Beta with out the filter but the whole sound was very muddy and unbalanced.
Either the Beta's putting out too little or the AN's too much, if that makes sense.
Are there any measurements i can take with my digital multimeter, the drivers or crossover components just to compare?
Thanks
Ian
when i started out i got a peerless kit and then a scanspeak kit and then a ipl kit and then a volt home studio monitor kit and i think it is the wrong route to go down.
every time you want something there is an answer and you spend some more.
i think you would be better getting some 2nd hand well engineered speaker as it would cost a lot less
Ahh the dreaded upgrade path yes I can see how this could be quite expensive if you follow that path but if you go for a good open baffle design its amazing what you can achieve
I think another issue is you not hearing what the speakers will do in your own system and room and this plays an important to sound as well.
But i heard a few open baffles and some of them have sounded pretty good to my ears
No, this is not the same thing.Quote:
when i started out i got a peerless kit and then a scanspeak kit and then a ipl kit and then a volt home studio monitor kit and i think it is the wrong route to go down.
every time you want something there is an answer and you spend some more.
i think you would be better getting some 2nd hand well engineered speaker as it would cost a lot less
We have two almost identical pairs of speakers, which are apparently making very different noises. We have to find out why.
The problem is that we are two hundred miles apart.
Ian.
Did the output from the bass drivers increase significantly when the filters were removed? I don't have any tone controls so comparison is difficult. What i can do later, is hook them up to an Arcam SS amp and see what they sound like.
I'll come back tonight when i've given the matter some thought.
Hi All,
Al, you are a true gent!
First thing I want to say is these speakers have massive potential. Running with two amps and the right material, they are breathtaking. I was playing my friend Metallica with the wick turned up, he couldn't believe how good it sounded. Incredible, his words.
There are two main problems;
My lack of knowledge, and having no car.
If any knowledgeable user in the London area could come and help troubleshoot, I can provide food, beer and wine etc :)
My problems may not even be with the speakers, it could be my systems shortcomings being ruthlessly revealed. Probably my impatience, i don't know.
I am grateful to the forum users for the advice and comments, I'm sure a solution will be found.
Al, the bass increased slightly when I removed the filters. But not a huge difference.
Thanks for now
Ian
Full range cones on open baffes do tend to be very revealing,in fact more revealing than anything except statics to my ears.Having heard Al's on several occasions I can confirm how good they are,so it may be that the problem lies elsewhere if they are sounding so good with some material Ian.
Hi Ali,
They sound much better Bi amped to get the bass level about right. I have a valve pre with the volume on about number 3, The valve amps are mono block with no controls. My sand amp volume is on number 8. Then I have plenty of volume and bass power. I not sure what the levels mean as i don't know the input sensitivity of the amps.
My valve amps are push pull 8 watt. the sony 40w.
If i was using only the valve amps, the volume is very loud set to 3, but with no real bass output. If just using the sony, 3 is loud and if I turn the bass control up to 10 I get good bass. If I Bi amp I get great bass. I can even set it for too much bass.
Hope this makes some sense, I'm getting dizzy swapping it all about.
Cheers
Ian
Great to hear you are happy with them, makes me want to start ine right now....but I dont have the wood yet! I have everything but - drivers, crossover, amps at the ready....
:doh:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Tait
mmm.... static's can sound very good.. but it does depend on what your comparing them too....
steve
Just what I've come across Steve.F'r instance,on Nick's OB's,there was very little difference between his DAC and my Audio Note.On my system (with his amp) there was a HUGE difference which showed up how much better his DAC is than the Audio Note.OB's would be my preferred choice,but for the fact that to my ears statics soundstage and image better(yes smaller sweet-spot tho),which is important for me,and also are more transparent IMHO.Kinda have to be I think,given the difference in mass of a driver cone and the mylar film in a static.YMMV. :)
Can I wade in?Quote:
Originally Posted by evozero
There is something really special about a mixture of valve & solid state power amps in the correct proportions & in the right system.
I used to use (& still own) a pair of SD Acoustics OBS's. The best incarnation of that particular system was with them being driven with a Radford STA15 on the mid-range & a Mark Levinson ML11 driving the bass & treble.
The soundstage was truly holographic, only bettered in my experience by well set up electrostatics - but this layout had proper bass. It was magical & I suspect that my Audio Research preamp was contributing a lot to the soundstage.
(For more on the OBS's, see this place: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...?t=2175&page=2)
Hi Chris,
Love the system pictures. The SD speaker have already caught my eye, but my partner said no effin way, too big and ugly. Just managed to get my OB's approved by using fabric of her choice. I think they look great, and now they are more of a feature in the room. Sarah also doesn't like the sony amp sitting on the floor making the place look untidy, but she likes the valves. So Bi amping is not a long term solution for me.
Cheers
Ian
im just not convinced about diy speakers as i said in my youth i saved by going diy and ended up unhappy and poor
anyway some of my thoughts i can not live with lowther and il leave it there , someone was mentioning open baffle i think this is not a good job for the big 15 inch such as altec it would be impossible to control the cone as they can sound wolley because of this , with very tight amplification they can turn from a good pa sound to something very good
i have tryed a lot of the more modern crossoverless designs fostex and john blue they are critical at times it is a case of try and try againto get an answer
some of the speakers i like quad electrostatic 57, reference 3a de capo, klipsch horn, spendor bc1 ,spica tc50, allison cd6 i ultimately prefer the quad but i have no space at the minute all for now
:scratch:Quote:
i can not live with lowther and il leave it there , someone was mentioning open baffle
This whole thread is about.....................................OPEN BAFFLES.
I'm busy fitting new basin and bog in downstairs cloakroom (little cupboard under the stairs).
Plenty of time to think about this, but not very much in the way of answers yet.
Beginning to think that the point Ali made, might account for some of the issues.
Different gear, different ears, different preferences etc.
Also beginning to think from your descriptions Ian, that these speakers are perhaps nearly there, and not the sonic disaster that i originally thought i was dealing with.
Well it was just the thought that having heard yours a few times Al,they are so transparent that small differences upstream will make a large difference to the resulting sound.Agreed also about different ears and preferences etc.After all,with the likes of OB's and statics,changing just say a resistor is makes an easily audible difference.Does to my ears anyway.
(this whole tread is about open baffle) ,sorry aib , i was just trying to contribute my experiences with diy speakers, as i did not read all posts in depth and was going by the heading( how good can diy speakers really get)
well on the open baffle subject, i dont think 15 inch drivers are best open baffle as when you wind them up the cone is to hard to control , so that is my one opinion -haystacks
Hi All,
I had a few good listening sessions recently, and got a friend to sit and listen while I adjusted the output from the SS amp. We got to approximately the same level where we both thought the bass should be. Al, did you manage to try the Arcam SS amp with them?
Interested to see if you could draw any conclusions.
I am praying its not my amps that need replacing, Having lost my job funds are gong to be very tight.
Cheers
Ian
Hi All,
Just thought i would revive this old thread with an update, Just in case you had the same drivers and wanted to play.
I was running the AN8's and Beta 15's as Al had them for a good while, although i couldn't get the bass response without sticking with the sand amp.
That is still the case, but i have used a H frame for the Beta and small round baffle for the AN's. this was inspired by the GR research speakers, and had a lot of helpful input from the designer, Danny. Check Audio circle for more.
The H frame helped the Bass out a lot and the small open baffle helped the Dipole effect.
But they need to be at least 3ft from the rear wall to get the deep 3D imaging, my wife hates this!
So i leave them up against the wall when not in use, a compromise.
Let me know what you think.
Pics
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/w...256resized.jpg
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/w...654resized.jpg
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/w...653resized.jpg
One of my friends uses casters to ovecome this issue and does not appear to have any sound issues because of this. Might be worth a try you can always remove if you do not like
I tend to agree about the diploe effect increasing if using a open back. For me one of the big differences is how better the mid bass is due to this.
By the way nice work
I think you need to hear good 15" bafflesQuote:
Originally Posted by Giant Haystacks
The scale and control is awesome. None of other speakers I had come anywhere close
Very nice Ian!