Well, there's a lot to be said for using a cartridge with the correct compliance for the arm mass, that's for sure :): If you want to keep the III, and space is an issue, then you can get RCA's that exit at a ninety degree angle.
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Well, there's a lot to be said for using a cartridge with the correct compliance for the arm mass, that's for sure :): If you want to keep the III, and space is an issue, then you can get RCA's that exit at a ninety degree angle.
I think that is the way to go Mark, it is just a matter of finding a quality pair that will do the cable justice :)
Hmm..I've never seen any 'posh' ninety degree plugs; however, if one went without the outer cover, and with a good deal of care, it would be possible to solder Eichmann's on at such an angle (the plastic screw on shell would have to be cut down, a groove cut for the cable exit and the lot filled with glue - for strain relief. A lot of messing about but it could be done).
Dave, I'm sure that Yannis could fashion something appropriate for you. Why not pop him an email and ask? :)
Marco.
I can do that Marco although it will have to wait for a little while now as I have got to spend some cash to get a replacement bass driver for one of my DM2's :(
No worries... I still think it's more likely to be a problem with your amp, rather than the speakers. Have you tried the speakers with a different amp, in order to eliminate that possibility?
Marco.
I don't have another amp to try them with as I've had to sell most of my spare kit due to financial issues :rolleyes: Mark (Reid) has offered to take a look at it once I've sourced duplicates of the cap kit component listings from Ray over in the States. I'll probably buy a cheap n cheerful amp from ebay to keep me ticking over 'til the Hafler comes back home and then sell it on again ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
No worries. I'd do that ASAP, as you might find that with a different amp, the problem disappears! ;)
Marco.
I was considering buying one of those cracking little T Amps but knowing my luck I'd kill the Coles tweeters due to clipping... :lol:
Joking aside, I think that one of those T-amps would be just the ticket! :)
Marco.
Guys - meanwhile, I'm having a custom tonearm cable created for me by Tellurium Q from their Black Phono cable (the product which is not listed but which I am using between my step-up transformer and phono preamp). I will have it for evaluation shortly.
I think Marco and I will need to put it up against the Yannis, especially as the TQ cable is a very reasonable £285 plus the cost of a DIN plug which they are fitting. This could be a battle extraordinaire :)
Let me be the first for a ticket !
Yep - it's been a while, Mike. I'll let you know when we've set a date.
I can bring some LPs in case you don't have enough !
:-)
The TQ arm cable is available in two versions - Black at £285 and Blue at £180, both available from stock.
At present, the cable is only available phono - phono for turntables equipped with phono sockets, which doesn't apply to Mike's Aro.
DaveQuote:
Originally Posted by hifi_dave
Glad you spoke
How are my cables best described ?
The Aro cable I assume is an "arm cable" which plugs into an odd, much smaller than DIN socket, around 3-4mm diameter
I think that then goes out, direct to the BNC connections I plug into my Amp.
So that would be a "Captive Deck Lead" ?
A cable from the arm is an arm cable.
Some, like the Aro are fixed into the arm and cannot (easily) be changed.
Others have a plug/socket arrangement ( similar to DIN ) at the base of the arm which enables cables, with that type of plug, to be changed.
Some have a short run of cable from the arm, often fixed, which is terminated on phono sockets for fixing to a plinth or turntable base. The phono cable which pliugs into these phono sockets can be changed/swapped easily. That is the type of cable TQ manufacture - phono to phono.
Thanks DaveQuote:
Originally Posted by hifi_dave
Any idea what the socket my Aro cable plugs into is called ?
If your cable plugs into the arm base, it's called a tone arm plug, I guess.
In your case, to use the TQ cable, you would need to terminate the Aro cable onto two phono sockets, probably dangling out the back of the Linn. Then you would have extra terminations in the way of the signal.
The plug on the end of the Aro internal arm wire used to be made by Racal, and after that it was a Marconi part and then the design fell into the hands of yet another company, military communication equipment again. But I'm unsure who makes them now though they are still available in small numbers.
Might be worthwhile asking Naim who supplied them last.
ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by hifi_dave
Hmm. Sounds doable but messy and less than perfect
ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by sq225917
Bad news - they are rarities and hardly anyone will want to connect to them.
So I either go with David's way or cut into the Aro cable and put new terminations on - not my forte at all
Well, I can do that but is it worth the trouble ?
If you could replace the whole cable with TQ, it might be worth it, otherwise you are just listening to the Naim cable. Or vice versa, depending on your point of view.
Sounds best to put that to one side and look at any other improvements. in the system. Possibly revisitQuote:
Originally Posted by hifi_dave
Shame Naim painted me into a Naim/Racal corner
You must be special Martin as I asked for one and they told me it's in development, I wanted a Furutech Din on mine. Then one can have the same interconnect from phono stage to amp as tone arm cable to phono stage which makes perfect sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
That's the plan, Dave. If it's a go then I'll have:
Tonearm > Black Phono > step-up > Black Phono > phonoamp > Black XLR > preamp > Black XLR > power amp > Ultra Black > speakers
Nice :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
I still reckon you should go balanced from the cartridge & all the way through if possible :) It's what I'd do & what I will do...
Congrats on your next post Martin, 8000 :eyebrows:
Oh, and I'm adding (while I'm at it):
SACD > Black XLR > preamp
Bloody hell! I need sit down :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Reid Malenfant
Or get a life..:rolleyes:
I'm coming up for 2000. Must get out more.
It's funny Dave, because I'd have thought you'd have far more than 2,000 under your belt by now.
It just shows that quality more than makes up for quantity, I suppose!
Thanks mate..:)
I'm selective and bide my time. I like to help where I can rather than push products. Just recently, I've got the hang of posting pics (thank you Alex) and have a chuckle every time one of my snaps appears successfully..:D
I know, I need a proper day job.
Indeed. Dave, you're a valued member of our community and a textbook example of how we like our trade members contributing to the forum - and long may it continue :)
Btw, could you do me a favour and have a word with matey-boy, t'other Dave, and tell him to come back because we miss him? It's daft falling out over hi-fi. AoS is as much about building friendships, as discussing hi-fi and music, and others and I here considered Dave as a friend.
Anyway, see what you can do. Churz! :cool:
Marco.
Marco:
You been upsetting Dave R again :)
Lol - we had a wee disagreement over a bloody cartridge! :doh:
Life's too short....
Marco.
I'll give it a go but he is a sensitive chap.
I miss him on here. I miss his photographic memory of products, people, times and dates long gone. I know he misses AOS because the other forums are often far too aggressive.
I'll e-mail him when I get back from Tesco..:rolleyes:
Nice one Dave.. Sensitive! Jeez no one as sensative as me :D
Nice one, Dave. I totally agree. Just tell him to merge back in as if nothing has happened. No need for any drama or anything :cool:
Marco.
Tell 'im that if he comes back I might lend 'im me ARC SP8!!
Steady, there Chris - you nearly reached for the smileys!!
Come back Thing from Tring. We miss you!
Agreed.
Very good input from my conversations
Getting back on-topic, chaps, I'm still enjoying listening to the results of the 428 Phono cable, in my system. However, further comparisons and listening have revealed that the Furutech cable (as mentioned before) still holds the upper hand, in terms of absolute clarity and detail retrieval, making the 428 Phono, on some material, sound a little soft and slightly opaque, in comparison.
However, in my system, this doesn't detract from the cable's other strengths, as previously described, but simply serves to highlight just how good the Furutech is, and also the difference in cost between both cables.
Based on what I've heard, however, I'm hopeful that the higher quality plugs I've ordered will address those issues, as what I'm hearing is a familiar effect caused by the use of plugs that contain a large amount of metal in their overall construction (thus subject to the effect of eddy currents), which I've heard before when comparing WBT 0102 ag RCAs, to their internal plastic housing counterparts, the 0110ag, which are totally free from eddy currents.
For more details on that subject, see here (where one can compare the internal construction of the 0102 vs. the 0110: http://www.wbt.de/index.php?id=77&ba...tt_products=63 From the website:
WBT 0110ag: http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/8...0110aggr01.jpgQuote:
Eddy currents occur in metal components close to where alternating currents flow. These currents can result in major signal distortions. The WBT-0110 Ag is designed in such a way that eddy currents do not occur at all.
WBT 0102ag: http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/2...r01number2.jpg
As you can see, the two plugs are identical, apart from one having an inner housing made of metal, and the other one of red plastic (or rather some form of plastic material). I can tell you, however, that the simple replacement of that metal housing, with a non-metal one, is what significantly improves the sonic performance of the 0110ag!
It was after hearing the detrimental sonic effect obtained by fitting my Mark Grant G2000HD interconnects with the 0102s, which made me upgrade the WBT plugs to the 0110 types. The sonic improvement from doing so was easily noticeable, removing a 'fog' from the sound, which impeded dynamics, restricted stereo separation and the resolving of high-frequency detail. With both the stock DIN plug and LOK RCAs, currently fitted to my 428 Phono cable, containing a high amount of metal, even although the metal used is non-magnetic, I can hear exactly the effect I did before (and which I have just described) when I used the WBT 0102s.
Therefore, as neither the Furutech CF-DIN(R), nor the Eichmann silver bullet plugs I've ordered, use metal excessively in their construction, indeed keeping it to a minimum, I'm confident that along with their other construction and material qualities, they will eliminate the detrimental sonic effect I've described and allow the 428 phono's undoubted musical qualities to fully shine through.
Furthermore, the superior 423.5 phono-Litz tonearm cable, which I've also ordered from Yannis, when fitted with either its stock connectors or the Furutech/Eichmann combo, should significantly outperform the 428 Phono cable, due to its superior construction, details of which are outlined below:
I've highlighted what I feel are some of the most notable points mentioned. It will certainly be very interesting hearing what the 423.5 Phono Litz brings to the party, and indeed the Furutech DIN and Eichmann silver bullet plugs. I'll update the thread as necessary as soon as I have all the relevant items in my possession for evaluation! :cool:Quote:
The 423.5Phono-Litz is one of our best tonearm cable designs and incorporates some truly new features that set higher standards in audiophile silver cables. For this series of cables we have created a state of the art Litz conductor consisting of individually insulated pure OCC silver strands. These Litz conductors are a significant improvement over solid, stranded or traditional Litz designs that are available at the moment.
The OCC strands are made of the purest silver and have practically no crystal boundaries. The strands are threaded individually in tight miniature Teflon tubes and then helically wound. All the insulated strands are then covered with an outer layer of PTFE insulation to form a single conductor. The miniature tubes prevent any movement of the wires inside the insulation, maintain a fixed distance of 0.26mm among all the strands of the same conductor and create an outstanding level of insulation with low dielectric involvement compared to any coated Litz wire one may find in other hi-end silver cables.
One of the main advantages in using litz conductors is that they achieve the flexibility and strength of stranded conductors but eliminate the resonance that results from strand interaction in bare stranded wires. In addition to their excellent mechanical characteristics Litz conductors prevent surface corrosion.
The 423.5Phono-Litz consists of 4 of these Litz conductors (24AWG) arranged in a star-quad cable geometry and encased in 2 layers of PTFE before the entire bundle is threaded into a dense braided copper shield. The star-quad geometry is used thought the cable industry and in particular where low level signals are involved in order to enhance the noise rejection characteristics of the cable.
However, note that the geometry of the cable (star-quad, Litz braid, twisted pair) cannot replace the role of shield in terms of dealing with EMI and RFI. Claims by manufacturers who offer unshielded cables about “self-shielded” Litz geometries are misleading. A cable that does not have a shield is an unshielded cable and subject to all the consequences this entails. This does not mean that such a cable may not perform well enough. It means that if this cable is used in certain environment it will not be able to prevent EMI from reaching the signal path.
The outer protection of the cable aims at creating a good electrical insulation with suitable mechanical properties (i.e. strength, flexibility, vibration absorbency etc). To achieve such a thing our cables use three protecting layers above the shielding: Teflon insulation, flexible PVC jacket and flexible braided outer sleeve. Between the shield and the cable jacket there is an additional tightly wrapped layer of Teflon insulation. The cable jacket is made by flexible PVC and offers enhanced protection to the cable.
Finally the cable is finished with a high-quality Viablue flexible sleeve (a combination of Monofilament PET and expanding fabric fillers). The outer sleeve offers substantial protection against abrasion and bending. It is extremely flexible with a soft texture.
Overall a very robust but flexible construction which beyond the outstanding conductors it employs the most suitable dielectrics, a dense braided shield that effectively blocks any noise, and an efficient “Faraday Cage” ground/shield arrangement that isolates the external ground path from both “send” and “return” signal conductors.
The pure silver Litz conductor used for this cable is the result of extensive work and experimentation in order to produce the ultimate result. It is flexible and very durable compared to either solid or bare stranded conductors of the same size. The size of its individual cores is large enough to give all the benefits of a solid conductor.
The twisted strands carry the signal as individually insulated conductors exposing a much larger surface area than a solid 24AWG conductor would, while having a smaller diameter (shorter distance to their centres). Despite the star-quad geometry the capacitance of the cable does not exceed the 65pF/metre.
The sonic result is simply amazing. A fast and transparent cable. Open but not edgy with natural upper bass extension, rich midrange and detailed layering. It is a truly neutral and casts a beautiful three dimensionality to the soundstage. It will not increase bass or mask detail.
The cost of the materials and the work required in order to form such conductors inevitably set a relatively high price for these cables. For one meter of this cable we use 15 metres of solid silver and its construction takes over 8 hours of work. If the price was not an issue we would certainly replace most of our existing cables with the ones containing these Litz conductors with Teflon insulated cores.
At the tonearm / turntable end the cable is terminated to a high quality, right angle 5-pin, Teflon insulated DIN tonearm connector. The connector features, a two-part precision made metal housing, 24K gold plated OFC pins with anti stress pin construction ensuring against conductor fatigue and providing optimum performance.
At the pre-amp /amp end the cable is terminated to a pair of LOK (Performance series) silver, locking RCA connectors by HGA. The cable comes with 2 separate ground cables (one for the pre-amp and one for the turntable chassis) terminated to Vampire gold plated spade connectors
All the connections have been made using Cardas Tri-Eutectic Silver Solder and sealed with PTFE.
Marco.
The more I learn the more I find I don't know ....
I think what people are missing here is for me that din connectors are flawed per se. Hence however good the cable it is ultimately dependent on the connectors and is why I prefer straight through cabling to phonos.
I agree, but surely then the quality of the phonos become just as important as the DIN plug, and thus could potentially act as a similar 'bottleneck'?
Really, all you're doing is shifting the break in the signal to a different point in the chain.
Marco.
If you believe that plugs degrade the sound then all plugs could potentially be as large a bottleneck an any other. I have some leanings in that direction in so much as I think the fewer sockets and plugs the better. Whether a single extra connection is audible or not, I'd sure as hell not wire my hifi back to back with 100 rca sockets and plugs instead of a cable. So in this case I'd go straight through from cart to phonostage- missing out the internal tonearm to din wherever possible. One less extra connection can't hurt.
I hope I don't get off topic, but this story might be of some use/interest to this end:
Back in 2006, during the Athens High End Show, me and some friends of mine bumped into the CEO of a quite famous German manufacturer of all things analogue; he had different versions of tonearms on display, some direct-wired, some with 5-pin dins and some with external RCA junctions. So we asked him the inevitable question: what, in his mind, was the best approach?
Being the extraordinarily nice and polite man he is (or having nowhere to run - there was 5 of us after all..) he spent some time giving us his perspective and this is what he basically (In brief) had to say:
The tonearm cable is by far the most important one down the chain (probably blatantly obvious to many of you here, but certainly not for me at the time..)
Therefore, the less connectors/joints/solder etc the less loss of signal.
Hence, an "unbroken" direct wire from cartridge tags down to pre would indeed be the way to go; however, as in all cases, some connections are inevitable, so it is the quality/construction/design of the wire that first and foremost matters, more so than the connectors used.
Once you get down to the connectors, the least problematic or degrading approach would be to use non-magnetic connectors made out of good conductive materials (ie beryllium, rhodium).
Rounding up, if direct wiring is not an option, then the use of the best possible materials/components around could and should compensate.
Don't know what you gents think of the above - I am certainly not in a position to provide any insight. But perhaps Marco is right in arguing that better connectors might at the very least bring up or show the qualities of the cable itself.:cool:
Without doubt, that would be the way to go, providing that you've chosen your favourite, 'final' cable - and you've no intention of changing it. Personally, I dislike the inflexibility of that arrangement, as I prefer having the convenience of using a detachable cable, as you never know when something better will come along than what you've got!Quote:
So in this case I'd go straight through from cart to phonostage- missing out the internal tonearm to din wherever possible.
Also, I think people worry too much about the sonic effect of breaks in the signal, which in reality are likely to be virtually inaudible, particularly if you're reducing the number of breaks merely by one, when plenty more still remain... There are far more important things to be worrying about, such as making sure that the signal is of the highest sonic quality in the first place! ;)
Marco.
Surely if you are removing one of two breaks thats 50% better. If you are only removing one of ten then the best you can hope for is a 10% improvement. So from a purely mathematic point of view, removing the next to last added joint in the signal path has to be the one with most chance of providing the greatest improvement. Short of hardwiring your arm cable to the pcb in your phonostage.
If it's thick enough to conduct, picks up no radio and doesn't roll off the treble then it'll do for me. I used to have a 4n silver in cotton, doubled quad, with each +/- twisted together and shielded with foil and then the whole thing being shielded in an additional full foil wrap (.3mm copper foil none of the this mylar backed crap). All wrapped in lovely cotton tape to damp it and finished with a silver plated Cardas 90 degree, Silver Eichmanns at the other end and dual external shield drains one of which was the armtube earth. Not surprisingly it still feels like it was overkill. ;-)