Hi Mike,
On your instructions you refer to an arrow marked top. My base plate has no markings or arrow on it whatsoever - Is this ok ?
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Hi Mike,
On your instructions you refer to an arrow marked top. My base plate has no markings or arrow on it whatsoever - Is this ok ?
Hi Robbie,
Did you get your Base Plate from Dave??
In the earlier version of the Base Plate when it was attached to the chassis with bolts, an arrow indicating "UP" was placed on the Base Plate, as the bolts holes were not symetrical about the centre.
In the newer version which is attached to the chassis with epoxy resin there are only the three Bearing bolt holes to worry about,
However it was sugested that one of the three possible positions be marked "UP" so as not to cause any confusion, "to wit".
Cool Mike and thanks. Yes, mine will be a newer one. The three bearing bolt holes are nice and symmetrical as you've pointed out so I've nothing to worry about, just thought I'd check. Didn't want to ask after epoxy applied and well and truly set :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_New
I have had my MN bearing a goodly while and am more than happy with how much it has improved the SQ over the stock and Vantage bearing. I have angsted over the base plate as I can totally see how it would improve SQ still further but I just don't want the platter lifted higher (Funk and bonded achromat) and if I'm honest didn't want to shell out any more dollar. So, after much thought and trepidation I decided I would permanently bond the bearing to the chassis thereby realizing the sonic benefits of improved structural rigidity. This is not for the timid as it is irreversible but having done it I can report definite improvement in low level detail (especially instruments "well back in the mix") and tighter, deeper bass - plucked double bass in particular.
I wanted to take the deck down to remove the pitch control as I've just bought a new top plate with no cut outs for the pitch control or 45rpm adapter so this was the ideal opportunity to "do the bearing"
Having totally dismantled the deck and removed the bearing I thoroughly cleaned the bearing case and the bearing well with acetone before pouring 25ml (20ml would be better I think) of mixed fibre glass resin into the bearing well. This has about 5 minutes of working time and sets in 20 minutes so you need to be nifty. Having partially filled the well I then gently placed the MN bearing into the resin and secured as usual with the 3 motor bolts and PCB screws - you need to fit the PCB because there is a deal of play in the bearing with just the 3 bolts. The bearing will displace some resin out of the well which will fill the void between the undersurface of the bearing and the chassis which results from the 3 proud mounting lugs. All the bolts and PCB screws were fully tightened and the assembly left for 60 minutes for the resin to fully harden.
There is no going back after this! If you FUBAR the deck is scrap!! There is no way to remove the bearing. Like as not you will also find that the 3 bolts will be fixed solid as a bit if resin will find its way into the threads even if like me you remove, clean and reinsert them. However, this is not FUBAR because if you do need to remove the PCB in future you can drill out the bolt heads and slip the PCB off and then (probably) remove the bolts with a mole grip.
Having reassembled the motor fired up no problem ( phew) and the improvement in timing and detail and bass was instantly obvious. So this "tweak" worked out very well but as I say does have the potential to seriously spoil your day if you get it wrong.
As a bonus having removed the pitch control I connected the earth wire that was previously attached to it and the arm board so that the arm board was earthed direct to the PCB earth screw instead - this totally removed the little bit of hum I was getting previously since installing the Croft MC headamp. previously with no music playing there would be audible hum with the volume pots above about 5, now I can wind them right up with no hum at all!
So all in all a very worthwhile few hours
Not attached and piccies as there really isn't anything to show
Go on, show us your new top plate and I'll give you a wine gum.Quote:
Originally Posted by worrasf
Very innovative idea Stephen. It should not have been too scary for you though. If you pull peoples faces apart for a living ... somewhat more 'mission critical'?
You have got me thinking though! The idea would not work for the standard bearing as that should have the option of removing it every now and then for a service. There may be other things that could be plugged into the bearing well that would increase rigidity. hmmmmm
Too kind!
Definitely wouldn't work with the standard bearing or any variant with an "open thrust plate" design as the resin would foul the bushings - only an option with a fully enclosed design like the MN
I'll get some piccies together shortly
I honestly do not like the idea of permanently bonding my Bearing into the chassis, as you say Stephen it is rather radical, whether you use epoxy resin or fibre glass resin. There are many reasons why you just might want to remove the bearing or disassemble the whole unit.
My Bearing Base Plate is not expensive and although permanent when installed, is does allow the removal of the Bearing and PCB with ease. It also permits the use of the special steel bolts which allow for much heavier clamping force onto the Base Plate. You must understand that these bolts not only hold the Bearing down, they also serve to clamp the stator assembly of the actual motor to the Base Plate. (or the chassis in the OEM state)
Secondly the BBP covers a very large central area of the chassis which is the weakest area and so it offers greater rigidity as a mechanical structure.
Hi Mike.
Wouldn't disagree with any of that. My "tweak" comes with a health warning but definitely works in terms of improved low level detail retrieval and bass extension and control which I understand is what the base plate offers,
This is clearly an "off licence" solution and I can totally understand why you would not support it. However, I'm a Black Country man living in Yorkshire so have short arms and deep pockets :wink:
Indeed, Mike - and quite simply, it allows the bearing itself to perform to its full sonic potential. I was shocked and stunned at just how much more ‘grown up’, weighty and purposeful sounding my SL-1210 was after fitting the BBP, having up until then used one of your bearings (and loved it), but not realising *just* how good things could get!! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_New
Marco.
How can I argue with a man from Yorkshire especially one with short arms.
And short legs :lol: ;)Quote:
especially one with short arms.
I'll have you know my legs are perfectly proportioned :rolleyes:
Opps !Quote:
Originally Posted by worrasf
Thought we were referring to our leader
I would have used beeswax instead - it's still used for temporary mounting of accelerometers since its vibration transmission characteristics are rather good.Quote:
Originally Posted by worrasf
Before this intervention I used the KAB thrust plate support wax which is very similar to the bees wax. As I posted previously it did indeed improve over no support but the "resin bonded" solution resulted in a significant improvement over the KAB wax. The main areas are in low level detail retrieval and improved timingQuote:
Originally Posted by Ammonite Acoustics
Having listened to the deck a few hours this morning with the "bonded bearing" I am astounded just how much better all music genres are sounding now. It's not just the bass that benefits. There is a tangible improvement in grip and timing across all frequencies resulting in a more lifelike and natural presentation - these improvements are not subtle IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I would hesitate to say ( but I will) that the improvement is so great due to the greater rigidity and stability of the bearing that anyone considering a MN bearing should give serious consideration to getting a base plate at the same time and have done with it.
Because of the irreversible nature of the way I have mounted my bearing I would not suggest this is a route many would want to follow and would support Mike's view that the base plate is the preferred option but I can categorically say that my "bonded bearing" solution gives a significant improvement in SQ - actually it's remarkable how much better it is.
Steve
Steve,Quote:
Originally Posted by worrasf
I did this mod years ago and have never looked back. Welcome to the club.
Outstanding!Quote:
Originally Posted by REXTON
Glad I'm not just guilty of "emperors new clothes" syndrome.
Did you use liquid resin like I did or epoxy?
Would wax not do the same thing, with the added advantage of being able to be removed?
Nope! See post 115 above for my experiences with bothQuote:
Originally Posted by CageyH
Eventually, sometimes later rather than sooner, the message hits home... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by worrasf
Precisely my thoughts, Steve. Why own a superbly engineered bearing, but only be able to realise 80% of its sonic capability? :)Quote:
I would hesitate to say ( but I will) that the improvement is so great due to the greater rigidity and stability of the bearing that anyone considering a MN bearing should give serious consideration to getting a base plate at the same time and have done with it.
Marco.
Epoxy, and a mini spirit level to make sure the bearing sat true.Quote:
Originally Posted by worrasf
Wouldn't wax eventually dry out?Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH
I got some time on Saturday and set to installing the MN base plate bearing in time for Christmas. My deck has been out of action since earlier in the year so I'm desperate to get it up and running again. All was good initially, psb removed etc. The problem I've encountered is at the stage in Mikes instructions, where you put the bearing inside the base plate hole, put the pcb over and on top and then secure these together with the three long slim black Allen headed screws / bolts supplied. I spent literally hours trying to get all three screws to locate into the baseplate. I'd maybe get two in but the third would be nigh on impossible to locate. I think I just about managed it once but no matter how delicately and slowly I turned the screws, one after the other it would cause the base plate to lift away from the flat shoulders of the bearing. Basically the plate would just not stay flat and flush against the flat of the bearing shoulders. As I say this was the one time I could get all three screws to locate / bite. After that I just could not get the third screw to locate / bite no matter how much I tried. I gave up in the end with very sore fingers after all the screw turning and allen key rotating - Extremely frustrating.
I am most certainly not inept at this sort of thing having fitted my MN bearing, MN ETP platter and removed the stock psu and fitted my external psu. I can only conclude that maybe the holes in the base plate are not perfectly accurate. They may seem to be by eye. As a result, I think that the most minute discrepancy is causing there to be maybe a need for the minutest degree of flex in the base plate I have which of course being very solid brass there wont be.
I emailed Mike last night and still await his expert view. In the meantime, Has anyone else encountered anything like this with their baseplate / install ?? :(
Hi Robert,
Firstly I did not know that DB was making the Base Plates from Brass. My specification was to use Mild Steel plate as this privides a much stronger thread for the three steel bolts. Do not force the bolts otherwise you will strip the threads, although it would seem that the threaded holes are not exactly positioned, either as to the angular position (120deg) or the diametric distance.
You will have to get DB to send you a replacement.
Right ! I've just applied the epoxy :eek:
I claim my wine gum Andrei :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei
Just gotten around to taking a photo of the top plate sans slider and disc adapter cut outs.
I'm very pleased with the looks.
Steve
That does look very classy, Stephen.
Thanks
That looks superb, Stephen! Did you do the work yourself, and if so, would you consider doing it for others (for an appropriate fee)? I’d quite fancy something like that myself :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco. All I did was remove pitch assembly etc. I bought the top plate off a guy on eBay - he did it as a "special" but still only charged £45 inc p&p which I think is darn good. I sourced the Technics logo plate from an eBay seller in Australia.
Cool… Got a link to the ebay ad you used? :)
Marco.
They trade under the name "chill grills.com" they fabricate specialist grilles for VW's as well as these plates. If you go to their website the link to the Technics top plates is on the home page. All of the various styles are shown. They didn't list what I wanted ie plane without cutouts for pitch and disc adapter so I just emailed and they did a special. Very helpful
Steve
That cover does look sweet Steve.:cool:
You do seem to come up with some interesting ideas Steve. That is a pretty decent faceplate - certainly worth a packet of winegums, and half a pound of acid drops, nigger balls & mackintosh toffees. I would get one but I've done my dash for the moment with a new amp, pre-amp and a pair of telefunken valves.Quote:
Originally Posted by worrasf
double post
Interesting, Steve. If I bought all the bits, would you remove the pitch control and stuff on my T/T and then fit the new top-plate? I’d bring my T/T to you and we could tie it in with a music sesh, as West Yorkshire isn’t too far away! I’d also pay you for your trouble :)Quote:
Originally Posted by worrasf
PM me, if you fancy it :cool:
I’m thinking brushed stainless steel, or even gloss white could be cool….
Marco.
Just seen this, looks stunningly good in the photo and I would imagine in reality... do tell? Would the Company who made this for you do a similar one but also blank out the barrel on/off switch and the pop up target light leaving just the squared of holes on the bottom left for On/Off and 45+33rpm speed selection, in other words just cut outs for the latter and of course the arm mounting plate? If they do I will be ordering one minus the Techy logo as technically (no pun intended :eyebrows:) with all the mods and upgrades I have done in the past five years, it isn't strictly speaking a Techy as such anymore. By the way is your top plate bonded to your deck of just friction fitted?Quote:
Originally Posted by worrasf
As for irreversibly bonding your MN bearing to the main chassis you are a brave man. I was one of the early adopters of the MN bearing and base plate and when I bought my BBP direct from MN he drilled three additional countersunk holes alongside the five fixing bolt holes so that I could further secure my MN bearing to the base plate first prior to fitting the entire assembly to the main chassis with the addition of breakable automotive gasket paste should I ever wish to renew the bearing but I guess the bearing is going to outlast me! Somewhere in the historic and ancient vaults of AoS Marco did publish my work relating the foregoing but I guess by now its long gone... I was motivated my Cablemaker1 of this parish who had also published details of his work on a sticky here.
Your deck, as it stands, now looks a true classic.
All the best for 2015,
Ron
Thanks Ron - I'm really pleased with the way it's turned out both sonic and visual. I'd be pretty confident that they could do you a "special" from what I can gather the factory has a press to fabricate these and they can change the die settings - drop them a line on their website. Regarding bonding they supply some double sided tape but I elected to leave it as a simple friction fit in case I needed to get at the OEM top plate or put it back into original spec (pretty rich seeing as I bonded the MN bearing in)
BTW the logo was sourced from a different supplier so no worries for you on that front
Steve
Thanks Steve, useful info for me as all I have to do now to my Tech is to improve the appearance overall, at the moment I have used Carbon fibre sheet cut to correct tolerance and thence bonded but I now want to move away from this to something more classical as per your endeavour. I shall let the festive season finish and then get in touch with 'chillgrills.com', in the meantime I shall give consideration as to a final look that I want... Marco mentioned stainless steel but that would clash with the shine of my MN Cu/Al platter. With piano black I would imagine that finger marks would eventually irritate, maybe a powdered grey/black finish to match my classic Naim amps should be considered, what think you?Quote:
Originally Posted by worrasf
Cheers mate, now back to my tumbler of Scotch... just to see in 2015 of course :)
PS: Who did your logo for you and I'm assuming it come with adhesive backing?
Ron
Hi Ron
name plate from here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2616887328...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT - yes adhesive backing.
Happy New Year
Steve
Mucho thanks Steve for the info and in response to my queries.Quote:
Originally Posted by worrasf
Happy and content 2015 to you and yours.
Ron
Hi guys, At long long last I'm a position to give a genuinely critical analysis / evaluation of the Mike New bearing base plate in my system or more to the point, how my system now sounds with the addition of the bearing base plate. I actually fitted the base plate a while back but couldn't evaluate for a number of reasons. 1. The BBP raises the platter by 6mm so what I found was that I needed more height at the back of the arm. So courtesy of Speedy Steve a new ebony armboard was ordered with a lesser dishing of 4.5mm as opposed to 8mm of my original. 2. Finding the sweetspot for the 2M Black is a PITA and has taken me an absolute age, fiddling and adjusting vta via on the fly BUT at long long blinking last I've hit it. So....
The Sound - I've listened to about 4 sides so far Dennis Brown - Love has found it's way lp and Bobby Caldwell's self titled lp from 1978. These are sides I'm very familiar with. First thing I noticed was darker / blacker quiet passages. Then the more I listened it was clear there was more insight into the recording ie: a genuine human being in front of a mike, the breaths, the expression, much more tangible and real as if the speakers have got out of the way. Same with the instruments, individual textures but in a life like sense. The other thing is there is an evenness to the overall frequency range ie: more flat / neutral, no frequencies are over emphasised, the balance is so welcome. There's a real sense of the individual playing of instruments as in someone playing not just music playing. So addictive, I really dont know what else to say apart from this is not all down to the BBP alone, however it is absolutely obvious to me that the BBP has taken things to another level in terms of how things sounded prior to install and that was damn good anyway let me tell you.
I would recommend the BBP with the MN bearing without hesitation as together we are talking 'audiophile' genuine hi-fidelity - honest not glossed over vinyl replay, which is what happens whenever a 'proper' component part is installed alongside the removal / replacement of resonant parts / noise inducers etc. That 'rightness' in replay starts to come through and it's why I've never stopped upgrading the Techie cause you dont half get back what you put in.
In terms of install, I'd say that it isnt hard but it takes care and concentration. Take it nice and easy and follow the instructions carefully ! Applying the epoxy was a squeaky bum moment as it's a kind of ' this baseplate really really needs to be dead centre' moment !!! :eek: Cant tell you how glad I am that I did it though. Marco said I'd love it and boy was he right !! :D :D :D
(btw - you know things are good when you find yourself thinking 'I'd never sell this deck!') :exactly:
I'm in big trouble now as I cant stop playing music and should really go to bed. I've started a new role in my organisation and have a training sesh in the morning etc etc oh boy !! :rolleyes: ;)
Bless
Rob
Hi Robert,
Yea your right in observing that the only tricky part is ensuring that the Bearing Base Plate is central when you leave the epoxy to set.
But if my Instructions are followed carefully using the three bolts to locate the position of the BBP, people should not have any problem.
Does the plate have to raise the platter by 6mm, or could a thinner plate be manufactured?
I am assuming that it's a 6mm plate in the statement above, so it sounds like it's capable of taking a direct hit from a ballistic missile.
The only reason I ask is that I don't have an additional 6mm of adjustment available.
I am also not sure that a new armboard for my arm will be that easy to manufacture.
I decided on a thickness of 6mm as this provides the maximum amount of solidity for the bearing whithout being any thicker.
A lot of people complain that they cannot get their new tone arms down low enough so it's difficult to cater for all combinations.
Mike,
I understand it's difficult to cater for all combinations.
By using a 4mm plate would there be a loss in rigidity?
It could make the difference between doing the project, or forgetting it due to requiring an expensive armboard upgrade.
i could certainly offer 4mm thick Base Plates if that is what people want.
What is that big metal sylynder on top of your tonearm?? Mine is just a small screw lid for the oil well....s that an upgrade part??Quote:
Originally Posted by worrasf
Hi Folks,
I wish people would ask me these questions here instead of by email.
I have been asked if the Bearing Base Plate can be painted. The answer of course is YES.
Excepting than the underside which is epoxied to the chassis must not be, for obvious reasons.