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Yet more evidence of the 'SME obsession', prevalent at Sound Hi-Fi, and perhaps profit margins dictating recommendations given?Quote:
Originally Posted by aniki
Nail > head. If you can't respond in a friendly and respectful way at all times, to the polite enquires of potential customers, then you don't deserve to be in business. End of.Quote:
Originally Posted by aniki
Marco.
Why - what's your problem with it, Andy? Chris outlined an experience he's had with Dave Cawley, of Sound Hi-Fi, and I've allowed Dave's response from elsewhere to be published here (as he has no right of reply on AoS), something incidentally that I didn't have to do if my intention was solely to discredit him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarzan
Now, we're awaiting Chris' response to that. Once that's been given, and dealt with appropriately, I'll then consider drawing a line under the thread. I think it's important that people are allowed to relate their experiences with dealers on a public platform such as this.
Quite simply, if you're 'squeaky clean', in that respect, then you'll receive nothing but praise, because you're one of the 'good guys'. Of course, the opposite also applies when that's not the case.....
It's all about the type of reputation you've built with your customers, and how that stands up to scrutiny. You reap what you sow! That's one of the benefits of audio Internet forums today: they 'shine a light' on BOTH the good guys and the bad guys in the hi-fi industry - and on AoS we're here to do *precisely* that :)
Dealers these days should always be aware that if their behaviour in some way hasn't been as professional or as courteous to customers as it should've been, then that's very likely to come back and bite them on the bum... It's not like the (bad) old days, where all of this stuff stayed safely hidden! ;)
Marco.
Ok, I´ll try to respond. And bear in mind that english is not my native language;)
The reason why I reacted on DCs reply, was his short and insulting answer. And I must add that I responded even shorter back to him, with a "wow, great answer". If he would have elaborated on what he meant by his short insulting reply to my two-sided question (one about the new Oyaide BR-12 and what he thought about going the ETP platter way vs selling the techy to buy a NAS). But he did not respond to that at all. He did not apologize for the short rude answer. It was nothing. I did not ask about SME, but NAS, Oyayde and ETP. And again this is the answer I got:
So where is the miss-matched products? Is it the ProAc Response D25 that does not fit in? By the way I wrote to ProAc last year after getting them, and guess what, Mr. Stewart Taylor himself answered very informative; congratulating me and called me sir. He helped directly with my question and said if it was anything else I should just write or call again. Now that is my kind of hifi dealer. Professional!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Cawley
Maybe DC did not know that ProAc and good quality tube amps are a match that even mr. Taylor use in their show room. And no, the Line Magnetic LM218iA amp with all quality components, class A, 22 watt single ended triode with 845 tubes and EL-34 driver tubes for the 845 was not mail ordered:) Compared to the top integrated from Creek that I tested side by side with the LM Audio, LM Audio won hands down. No contest!
So maybe it is the mail ordered Jasmine LP2.5DU he is referring to? Well, that IS mail ordered because I ordered it directly from factory. At the time I received the Jasmine I had borrowed two very good phono stages for demoing in my own system, for a period of about 3-4 weeks. That was the Audion Premiere MM tube phono stage and the Graham Slee Reflex M + PSU1 (the upgraded PSU from Graham). After many hours of A/B/C/A/B/C-testing between those phono stages, I landed on the Jasmine. Why? Because it had the best sound. Not because it cost half of what the Reflex M cost, but it was more resolved and more dynamic:)
Then we have all the upgrades done to my 1210M5G and I´m not going into that:) Those are all well known upgrades.
So where the miss-matched mail-ordered comes from, or that I should rather buy into SME?? Well, now I know. All I wanted was his opinion on a new product he is selling (the Oyaide BR-12 vs MJ-12+BR-One) and what was his opinion on buying the ETP platter vs NAS Hyperspace. He could have easily managed to promote his SME combo without insults. He could and should as a hifi dealer, answered my questions and THEN he could have mentioned SME and why I should considering that route instead. Well, he did non of that and he is the kind of dealers I tend to leave alone.
There are so many dealers out there with great service. ProAc being one of them :cool:
Marco, you claim that SME has high margins:
Sorry, but as the site owner you really need to act with more care....do you know what SME margins are? Lower than many competitions arms, and with strict ' pay in advance' condition. On average they are tougher on dealers than the average company. Their margins are pretty standard, similar to Linn, Naim, or probably Jelco. Your slur on Dave Cawley....who I don't know...is careless and unfair. You effectively accuse him of dishonest advice driven by profit motives. But without offering a scrap of evidence for such a public claim.
The chap wrote asking advice, and the dealer replied, in a slightly abrupt but perfectly straightforward manner.. What people don't like is the advice he gave. If he had, insincerely, praised Jelco and urged the spending of more money on such products, then no doubt he would be a 'good' dealer.
The habit of 'dealer bashing' is unpleasant, and for the forum owner to weigh in with dubious comments just makes it worse.
If you don't like the advice from any dealer, do not buy from them. You have no reason to accuse this dealer of dishonest advice....yo just don't happen to agree with it. That's all. Strange as it might seem, hi fi dealers are not our personal servants. As I said, I don't know this dealer, and don't really care what his views are: I do care that dealers get pilloried for offering their view, when asked for it!
Indeed, you could just as easily praise this chap for being prepared to speak his mind. Incidentally, this is not a criticism of Mr Kemp's gear.....just his expectation that he should be told only what he wants to hear.
I'm popping out for a bit now, but in order to clear up your confusion, Chris, the 'mismatch' DC's arrogantly referring to, is the way in which you've modified your Techy - i.e. a bearing from one manufacturer, a PSU from another and an arm from somewhere else...
In short, it doesn't meet with his notion of 'synergy', but most importantly, it contains no modded Technics items from Sound Hi-Fi, which he's wrapped his ego around or made a profit from. Hence the ignorant dismissal of all the listening you've done, based on what YOUR EARS have decided, resulting in the (to you) carefully considered components you've chosen for your turntable.
Essentially, it's your fault for having a mind of your own!! :doh:
Quite frankly, it's an inconsiderate, shortsighted and shocking response from someone who claims to be customer focussed - but then, as I've said, based on what others and I here know about the man, it's no surprise. At least you've done the correct thing and taken your business elsewhere.
Perhaps that will give Mr Cawley some food for thought in future, in terms of how he treats his potential customers?
Marco.
Well, that's not what I've been told, and in person by the man himself! He's gloated about the 'brilliant margins he's secured' with them umpteen times to me in the past, because of the 'shed loads' of it he sells (his words). I guess we'll agree to differ then, Peter, until some actual figures are quoted, and if you're right, I'll gladly retract my comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by paskinn
Perhaps someone should ask DC what his profit margin is with sales of SME components and see what his answer is??
Not in my view he didn't, or most importantly, that of Chris. So do you call referring to someone's carefully considered choices as "mismatched components bought by mail order" polite? If so, you and I have rather different meanings of the word.Quote:
The chap wrote asking advice, and the dealer replied, perfectly politely .
In your opinion, it's untrue, although it depends on what you're referring to. If it's in reference to profit margins, then as I've said we shall see. However, everything else written here about DC is factual and can be proven.Quote:
The habit of 'dealer bashing' is unpleasant, and for the forum over toon in with untrue remarks, just makes it all worse.
As for 'dealer bashing', well if the shoe fits. There are plenty of dealers who receive praise here all the time - and deservedly so. However, when they deserve the opposite, then that's what is given.
Furthermore, you probably don't know the history between DC and this forum, in order to judge what criticism is deserved and what isn't. In that respect, I'd ask you to read the archives, after which you may take a rather alternative view.
Marco.
Then you truly did not get the point:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by paskinn
It is not what you recommend, but how you present it. As I wrote, DC could have easily have managed to promote his SME TT and arm, without insulting a potential customer. And it is of course that "mail-ordered" jargon I'm talking about.:mental:That he wrote as an insult to be felt as an insult. I have been into hifi for the last 23 years and I am always glad to have recommendations of ways to go. That is also why I have a modified 1210M5G and not a mainstream Rega RP-3 or a Project that so many said I should start with:eyebrows:
Well, that is even more surprising:eek: I think it sound pretty good:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I think this is where individual perception comes into play. I read Dave's answer as him not being able to comment on which of the upgrades Chris asked about would be the best because the parts Chris has modified his SL-1210 with are from a variety of manufacturers, some or all of which Dave isn't familiar with. Therefore how would Dave be expected to know what they sound like, and thus advise best on a change? Equally, the SME mention seems to be related to Chris's own enquiry about the possibility of changing the whole turntable for something like a NA Hyperspace. Yes, Dave sells SMEs and not Nottingham Analogues but he's a dealer and wouldn't be in business for very long if he didn't recommend stuff he sells!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
That said, I do agree that the tone of the response as it has been reproduced is somewhat curt and dismissive and not what I would have expected from Dave based on my own dealings with him.
Precisely - and that is the whole point that's being missed here, i.e. it's not *what* you say but how you say it, and there are quite a few audio designers and dealers guilty of such inconsiderateness and arrogance, based on an overinflated sense of superiority and self-importance. It's one of the main reasons why the high-end audio industry in the UK is in that state that it's in.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisKemp
The bottom line is, DC's lost your business, where had he shown you more respect and handled the situation differently, an alternative and more positive outcome would've likely ensued. He should certainly be reflecting on that matter and learning from his mistake, as well as others here attempting to defend the indefensible.
Marco.