Just pulled the trigger on one of these babies....

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31-03-2014, 08:57
Marco

Hi Mark,

Quote:

Originally Posted by YNWaN

Yes, I was surprised to see the output so low (not a bad thing, just means that the phonostage has to be very low noise and relatively high gain) and I was also surprised that it doesn't have a more advanced stylus profile (there seems to be a bit of a fashion for this among some Japanese manufacturers - some Audio-Technicas also).

Edit: Just seen the price - £500 seems very reasonable.

Indeed... The thing with Denon cartridges is that they always perform, sonically, far in excess of their price (witness the superb performance available from their budget MCs, such as the DL-110 and 160, not to mention the world-renowned DL-103, and what it's capable of with some judicious tweaking), and so whilst £500 is a very reasonable price indeed for a cartridge of the calibre of the DL-S1, you can bet your boots that, technically (sound of course is subjective), it'll compete with virtually any other cartridge that's out there, regardless of price.

Denon can do that simply because they're such a huge company, who employ some very talented, hugely experienced designers, and have all the tooling and production techniques set-up that allows them to produce cartridges, such as the DL-S1, for a fraction of the cost of much smaller companies, who mainly (or solely) make cartridges. It's an 'economies of scale' thing. The exact same applies with a company like Nagaoka, and so therefore, one can always guarantee very high 'SPPV' and technical precision with Denon or Nagaoka cartridges.

In terms of phono stage gain, there's only 0.05mV of a difference in output between my SPU and the DL-S1 (0.2mV and 0.15mV, respectively), so in that respect there should be no issues, and if there are, I'll get Paul to increase the gain on the head amp and/or make it switchable. The same applies with loading, which at the moment is set at 100 ohms on his head amp. There has been some talk that the DL-S1 likes 200 ohms, or perhaps even a little higher, but I'll address that issue if it becomes necessary when I listen to the results.

Can't wait to get it now! :cool:

Marco.
31-03-2014, 09:20
Marco

Hi Steve,

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedy.steve

Oooh - looks lovely. Should be well engineered and sound different to the SPU.
Look forward to the review.
Variety is the spice of life!

Indeed! One of the things that attracted me to the DL-S1 (amongst many things) was its hugely extended high-frequency response. This thing goes up to 70kHz!! :eek:

Therefore, it should be a veritable 'information-meister', with bags of top-end sparkle and filigree detailing, which my SPU Royal already excels at (by going up to 60kHz), although not quite at the level of Dom's (£5k) DH1, which I heard at his place recently, and utterly blew me away!

What I'm hoping for, with the DL-S1, is the seemingly endless high-frequency 'headroom' of Dom's DH1, married to its 'boogie factor' and that of the SPU, for £500, instead of £5000.......... ;)

We'll see what happens and how close I can get!

Marco.
31-03-2014, 09:35
YNWaN

Just pulled the trigger on one of these babies....

Well, yes, there is only .05 output difference which does seem tiny - but placed within context. That equates to 25% less output than your current, very low output, cartridge.

Yes, Denon are a large company but so are Audio-Technica and they have certainly made some cartridges that are not to my taste. To be honest, it rather sounds like you have decided that you are going to live this cartridge whatever.

I read Jerry's review of it and his comments regarding poor bass concern me (though he doesn't state what phonostage is used) - I've owned Denon cartridges in the past and reticent bass is not a characteristic I remember.

Regarding high frequency output, that is definitely a factor of low tip mass, low moving mass (low output suggests few coil turns which is good) and stylus profile. The Denon says it uses a modified elliptical - it would be interesting to know what this means exactly but on the face if it there are significantly better profiles available (including the one fitted to your own SPU).

If it does go above 20k though you will need to consider some super tweeters for your speakers. I was very pleased indeed by the results when I built mine.

http://www.homebuilthifi.com/images/...k_together.jpg
31-03-2014, 09:42
Marco

No, not at all! It simply that, on paper, it ticks certain important boxes for me. Time will tell if that ends up being the same in practice :)

I've been researching the DL-S1 for some time, and have now decided to take an 'educated punt' on it. If it works out as well as the similar punts I took on my SPU or the Ortofon RS-212D tonearm, not to mention the modified Technics SL-1210MK5G, which I imported from the States (or even my Tannoy Lockwoods), then I'll be laughing...! ;)

If gain needs to be increased, I'll simply get Paul to do that on the head amp - no biggie.

Yes Audio Technica also come into that category, although they're nowhere near as big as Denon. Like you, I'm not a massive fan of AT cartridges in general, although some have hit the spot, most notably the 33PTG. Some of their MMs are also very good.

Marco.
31-03-2014, 09:58
chris@panteg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco

Hi Steve,

Indeed! One of the things that attracted me to the DL-S1 (amongst many things) was its hugely extended high-frequency response. This thing goes up to 70kHz!! :eek:

Therefore, it should be a veritable 'information-meister', with bags of top-end sparkle and filigree detailing, which my SPU Royal already excels at (by going up to 60kHz), although not quite at the level of Dom's (£5k) DH1, which I heard at his place recently, and utterly blew me away!

What I'm hoping for, with the DL-S1 is the seemingly endless high-frequency 'headroom' of Dom's DH1, married to its 'boogie factor' and that of the SPU, for £500, instead of £5000.......... ;)

We'll see what happens and how close I can get!

Marco.

Surprised you never fancied trying a Technics EPC100 Marco , Matshushita's finest by all accounts , a MM but with a frequency response of 5 hz to 100 khz .

They are rare and not cheap though .
31-03-2014, 10:05
YNWaN

Yes, the 33PTGII is more to my taste too (though it doesn't completely shed that AT leanness) - you can get that at a very good price imported through eBay. AT do a number of variants of it though and some of them use less radical stylus profiles - elliptical variants.
31-03-2014, 10:24
NRG

Quote:

Originally Posted by YNWaN

Of the stylus or the 103D - or both?

Both...but you could argue its no longer a 103D.
31-03-2014, 10:31
YNWaN

Marco, did you consider the AT- ART7?

http://eu.audio-technica.com/en/prod...57&prodID=4495

It looks very interesting and can be had for £800.
31-03-2014, 10:41
YNWaN

I've just found this that I found interesting - don't know if you have seen it already:

http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/g...sponse0001.jpg

http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/g...es_Azimuth.gif

Quote:

The comparison on Agon was with a DL-S1, another air core coil type, and the Art7 was said to be better in every way. I haven't heard the Art7 or the AT50ANV which is more expensive, but they seem to overcome a big problem with the DL-S1 and some preamps. That's the relatively high resistance/inductance. I'm not exactly sure what inductance is on the DL, but the Art7 is 12 ohms and 8uH.

Partially because of the large amount of gain needed for these carts, the cart inductance combines with shunt capacitance and can cause ultrasonic ringing and overload. I have read about people loading the cart below its impedance and I suspect that's why. When I tried the DL-S1 with an AHT phono stage I experienced what seemed like harmonic distortion, a rather nasty overtone on the mid/treble. I didn't take it below 100 ohms. When I switched to another phono stage the cart was excellent with a relaxed effortless type of natural sound. The AT is probably a more detailed sound and, judging from that response curve, accurate.

neo

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vin...5/1059319.html

The above, highlighted in red, may well explain Jerry's negative experience. I don't know how your own stage will interact with the Denon but it is worth bearing in mind.
31-03-2014, 12:04
Marco

Hi Chris,

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris@panteg

Surprised you never fancied trying a Technics EPC100 Marco , Matshushita's finest by all accounts , a MM but with a frequency response of 5 hz to 100 khz .

They are rare and not cheap though .

Yup - that's another one on my radar. I'll happen at some point :)

Marco.

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