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Why is the CD faulty? It could be there is more low bass on the Streisland CD and your setup with 2132 is incapable of reproducing it properly...if the bass becomes more controlled with the volume turned down then that indicates to me a problem somewhere....IE the 2132 ;) or you may have an issue elsewhere.... I find the 2132 has a similar effect in my system.....Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveK
Hi Neal,Quote:
Originally Posted by NRG
Thanks for your input - must admit that I never thought of that possibility :doh: :doh: . On the evidence that I "may have a issue elswhere" would you be able to hazard a guess as to the best place to start looking?
Having thought about it a bit more I'm not sure that it really matters if it is only the Streisand CD that I have a problem with - I am not a big bass freak, enough is nice (very desirable) but too much is to be avoided, so if my system fails to reproduce the very low bass, which doesn't seem to occur too often, I can live with it quite happily.
I would also say that I have not had the same boomy bass problem with any of my other sources (2 x TTs, 1 multi purpose Blu-ray Player (on which I've played Kodo Drummers DVD), 1 multipurpose DVD player, 1 Marantz CD-63 MkII player, 1 multimedia Vaio PC and 1 Sky HD box.
Cheers,
The 2132 works great with other cables too, I'm using an NVA super Sound Pipe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
Sounds great! :)
Ah, found it...not so much a list but some recommendations made by Leo back in 2005(!) when I was modding an MF X-Act... :doh: Intermixed with what we know already we have:
OPA2132(!), 2604, 2111, AD826, OP275 then we have our LM4562 and also the OPA2107 (gets good write ups) and AD8066....
I would like to try the OPA2107 but it appears to need an adapter so I assume that means it needs an extra capacitor. Too much hassle methinks....
OPA2107 is available as 8pin DIL so is a straight fit;)
Bloomin heck, that was ages ago:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by NRG
Think we learned a bit more since then:eyebrows:
So it is! Do you think its worth paying extra for Burr Brown over TI Leo? Burr Brown is a lot dearer but still a cheap upgrade.Quote:
Originally Posted by leo
I couldn't say for sure which would be better mate, they should be same but as we know isn't always the case.
Its no longer Burr Brown, its taken over by Texas instruments , the Burr Brown stamped ones will be older and probably leaded where as the TI ones will probably be lead free
Its possible you pay less for one with TI in the description but the chip may be stamped BB:)
Going by the OPA2132 I found the leaded version to sound smoother but boomier in the bass, if this applies to the OPA2107 I dunno tbh :confused:
They may sound the same, the OPA2107 I have is BB stamped in white and definitely leaded
I'll pop it back in and let it run for a few days, currently have OPA2111 which was sounding nice but went bass light over a few days :doh:
BTW I have an original philips NE5532AN which I'm going to compare against the NE5532P which was fitted in the 7520
Speaking of the NE5532P....
Someone in the thread mentioned the OP2132 with the NE5532P in the HPA socket as making his system sound the "best balanced" he'd heard.
Got curious (as I do) and tried it yesterday. OP1232 in Line Out, NE5532P in HPA.
Very very good actually - smoother but better projected vocals than with the 2132 in HPA. Also, the speakers seem to shift more air than they did before at lower volumes?
A bit more gutsy sounding.
Good stuff, going to keep em in for a wee while, let my ears get used to the "improvement" :)
Jerry, recommend you try it, see what you think?
Gary.
Blimey the 5532? Was that the one in the original 7520? I want elusive exotica me. :lol:
Don't be too quick to judge the old 5532;) it may not be the quietest , fastest highest bandwidth etc but it can drive loads well , actually not a bad little performer if used within its limits
I'm finding the Philips 5532AN sounds quite different to the TI 5532P:)
I'm telling you Jerry - give it a try, might surprise you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
Perhaps theres a LITTLE less bass depth, but the improvements elsewhere mean you might not even care.
Theres some alchemy going on with the Dac and these opamps...Who'd have thunk the HPA would affect the Line out so much? :scratch:
Just a random thought....would the Dac work on Line out if there wasn't an OpAmp in the Headphone socket?
I'm thinking that as the sound is so dependant on whats in the other socket....what would it be like when there is NO other OpAmp to affect it?
(Assuming it works in the first place?)
Could try it, but I've dismantled my Dac so ofter recently I want a rest! :)
You hit the nail on the head there Gaz, there's definitely some alchemy going on here, possibly black magic even.
Just been trying your recommendations after receiving some 2132 op-amps in the post yesterday.
My first impressions of the 2132 are very good. Beautifully lush midrange, vocals are gorgeous and projected right out in front of you and a lovely sweet and smooth treble.. But oh, that bass.. It's overpowering and it's ruining everything else...
Then I remembered that I still had the MLC5/6 mod in from a few weeks back, i.e. replaced MLC5/6 with 100nf/33KOhm resistor pair which was done to augment the bass on the 4562 (I still have a 4562 in the headphone socket at this point by the way). So I took the cap/resistor out of the circuit and things were a little better in the bass, but also it seemed to lose some of the lushness in the midrange too.
So, onto Gaz's recommendation, I put the 5532 into the headphone op-amp socket and sure enough, the bass is back under control and there's still that lovely three dimensionality and projection of vocals into the room. However... The first thing I noticed was that piano now sounds metallic, things are a lot brighter and the whole thing sounds somewhat more 'digital' to my ears.
Next up, I took out the 5532 and put in a 2107. I ordered a couple of 2107s for the 7520 pre-Wolfson DAC and didn't get on with it at all, but decided that it was worth a try as so many things had changed since.. Well, I'm rather glad I did as it's coming out as current favourite...
Now I am trying to decide which chip is best in which socket... With the 2132 in the line out and the 2107 in the headphone, it retains that soundstage you can walk around, well projected vocals and deep but well controlled bass, but is still a little bright, but swap the chips around and treble becomes much sweeter, bass is still bang on (possibly even slightly better) but the three dimensionality is lost and it's more of a wall of sound - sounds almost like a piece of Naim kit in fact.
One thing is for sure though, the 2132 stays. If there was a way of curtailing the bass with the 4562 in the headphone socket then I think that would be the best of all worlds, but the 2107, for now is a very good compromise.
..Ah yes, before I forget, to answer your question Gaz.
Yes, you can run without an op-amp in the headphone socket. Try taking your 5532 out and see what you think. I thought it sounded better than with the 5532 in, but I've suddenly grown quite partial to a spot of late night headphone listening after discovering recently just how good the headphone amp in the Caiman is.
Great stuff chaps-I will try the 5532 in the HPA tonight (if I can find it). One thing I really like and would hate to lose is that expansive soundstage that the 2132 creates. The 2107 sounds interesting. I may order one.
Cheers Rich.
Yeah its a bit of a minefield this opamp malarky - what makes it worse (probably) is that they are probably system dependant too!
Didn't pick up from your first post....
Has your 7520 been fitted with the Wolfsen Dac chip?
If so, your Dacs the same as mine and your observations are even more interesting to me. :)
I'll try taking out the HPA Amp, see how I like that.
I do agree though, the 2132 is the best I've tried in the Line Out socket.
Soundstage is pretty amazing.
Just an update on my side, maybe someone finds it interesting. I eventually replaced the DAC chip with the Wolfson (great improvement, btw). The DAC sounds better than ever, it has moved up a class, I'd say.
Still using the 4562 on the HPA and until today the 4032 on the line out. Very much to my taste, the sound on the speakers. Very detailed, very precise. The lows though not quite plentiful, are controlled, the highs very much to my liking, can't detect any sibilance at all, but then again my Spendors are not exactly aggressive speakers, either.
Today I tried the AD826 on the line out. Not very pleased with the initial findings. The highs seem a touch more refined, but also more recessed than with the 4032, while the mids are sometimes better, most times worse (as in muddier) than with the 4032. I'm not quite sure what to think, I'll give it a bit more time see if anything changes, but to me it seemed the instruments were a lot better separated with the 4032, some pieces, particularly heavily populated music, now sound a bit muddy, it's like the sounds are bleeding into each other, if I'm making any sense here.
Haven't tried getting back to 4562 on the line-out yet. Can someone please remind me what the MLC5/6 mod was supposed to do, apart from better bass? I seem to recall the mod was recommended for both op-amps 4562, is that correct?
Sometimes I do wonder why I'm faffing about with the DAC so much, once I found the sound I like. The answer I give myself is that I do it because some of the changes have brought a degree of improvement I would not have thought possible, so I keep hoping the wonder will happen once again. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. But still, for the extra money, the improvement is nothing short of amazing from the stock product, which in itself is quite a remarkable piece of kit.
Is anyone saving up to buy a new amp or set of speakers since buying a Caiman:scratch:?
The opamp I prefer to use is the NE5532FE, which was also fitted as stock item to the legendary Philips CD960 and Marantz CD94 CD players. They are ceramic chips, compared to the more common can or plastic cased opamps. They seem to match my system quite well.
Err, yes, I am :) Except I didn't buy a Caiman, I bought a 7520 ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB
Stan,
I know I wont be upgrading my Source again.
TWEAKING it yeah,;) but FLACs/Squeezebox played thorugh my Beresfords as good as I'm ever gonna need.
Better rewards spending money elsewhere, where I'm sure the Dac will sound even better.
G.
Alexxus,Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexxus
this might mean nowt to you :) , but your Avatar...is that a ZBrush sculpt?
Yep, amp and speakers. To use the DAC to better advantage :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazjam
Sorry Gaz, our posts crossed. Not sure what the avatar is, I think I picked it up from the cover of some graphics software. I just liked the way it looks, great upper body there, innit?
Jerry,Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
also try the 2132 on its own WITHOUT an opamp in the Headphone socket.
That might surprise you too, I perceived a difference between 2132/5532 and 2123 on its own.
It sounds even better to me, soundstage more 3d and solid.
Its more "direct" sounding...
Gaz.
[QUOTE=StanleyB;70697]Is anyone saving up to buy a new amp or set of speakers since buying a Caiman:scratch:?
Yes Stan, I think the amplifier is the weak part of my system despite sounding very good. I thought about valves but decided against them at the moment. I want to get monoblock Class D amp made for me once I have decided which manufacturer to buy from. Not the sort of thing you can demo so very much opinion based.
Ooops, sorry Gaz, and everyone. I'm probably in the wrong thread as I'm performing these experiments on my Caiman. My 7520 is also Wolfsoned but has been filtered down to another system so doesn't get my full undivided attention these days.
Well, it's funny Eddie should mention the 4032, as I've just dug mine out. It's not been used for a while and I don't think I'd tried it in the Caiman before. From memory I don't think it was compatible with the MLC5/6 mods, but I thought I'd give it a go anyway, and yes, without MLC5/6 in place, although very nice, there's something not right about it. It's just a touch unnatural with a bit of an edge.
... That was until I popped the 100nf/33K pairs back in.. Now we're cooking on gas. A 4032 in the line out socket, and a 2132 in the headphone socket. I think I've struck gold but it's a bit early to say for sure yet. I'll report back after a couple hours more listening, plus I'm also mindful that this 100nf/33K value is optimised for the 4562 - This was the reason for my trip to Maplin this morning - A couple of SIL sockets so that I can try some different values.
I'll be back..
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by lovejoy
Gaz got it right about the opamp rolling getting crazy. But then again, it's a lot of fun too, innit? I gotta get a 100nF cap and a handful of resistors now and get crackin', see what else I can get out of it :eyebrows:
Don't get me started on amps. But yes. I hate choosing amplifiers.
It took me ages to get the last lot sorted out. Luckily, at the time I was still doing a Saturday job at Sevenoaks so could audition plenty. I was perfectly happy with my John Shearne Phase 2 ref before it blew up. I had a set of MF A3 pre and power amps on loan whilst it was away for repair which really didn't work with my Shahinian Arcs at all, but then strangely when the A3.2 was released they worked very well and I ended up with those (after going through a pile of other amps in the meantime).
I guess that ultimately Dynavector is the logical choice for the Arcs, but they never seem to be around when I've got the money spare for them.
On the other hand, the amps have a new lease of life by virtue of the fact that I completely dismantled and rebuilt the system the other day and by some ruthless discarding of some cabling (I won't mention the culprits names *cough* Supra mains cables *cough*) the amps are sounding pretty damned fine again.
I asked cos I do that stuff meself :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexxus
Not bad, nothing compared to mine though. :mental:
Where can I get signed up for one of those? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by lovejoy
Yeah, difficult stuff picking up the amp. Mind you, it's about as difficult picking up the right speakers for a certain amp. To your taste, that is.
Yours as in your avatar, or your graphic work? Why don't you make me a nice one, I'll be proud to use it. No shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazjam
Gazjam did the original artwork for the TC-7510 MK6 and TC-7520 front panel out of interest. That's one of the reason why I laugh when people claimed I rebranded the DAC from someone else.
Great stuff. Seriously. And I was not joking about being proud of using his graphic work, I hope I was not creating wrong ideas here.
I have been commissioning work from Gazza for some time now, and he only let me down once.
Gawd, thanks Stan! :doh::)
Alexxus, as proud of my work as I am, I was meaning my super great upper body! :lolsign:
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(as if)
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB
Raised a smile here too.......
especially when folks from one forum were quoting from another (all wrong info too) :)
Well, I spent practically all day yesterday trying out op-amp combinations and thought I'd reached a happy conclusion. I was using my old DVD player as a source at the time and after hours of listening was absolutely blown away by the sound using the THS4032 in the line out socket and the new 2132 in the headphone socket, also using 100nf/12KOhm combinations in the MLC 5/6 sockets. No matter what I played, it was thoroughly enjoyable and did not set a foot wrong. Then later in the evening I got my Macbook Pro back from work - my main source for digital audio and assuming the improvements would continue, I simply hooked it up and started playing tunes..
But what's this? It's flat, boring and lifeless. The treble is a mess, the bass has sunk way down in the mix. It's just completely musically uninteresting. Oh!
So it would seem that the 4032/2132 combination is the best for the DVD player, but in order to get the Mac to sound that good the 2132 returns to the lineout socket and the 4562 to the headphone socket - keeping the 100nf/12K pairs in place which seems to help the wayward bass somewhat in this combination.
I'm speechless at how much difference the source makes, and that's using the same interconnect too!
I think I am starting to have second thoughts about the 2132. Its bass, although well controlled is too heavy. I noticed this tonight listening to vocals. Its like you have a loudness control on (remember them?). Its a shame really because it ticks so many boxes. Probably in a bigger room or with standmounts it would be fine but its just a bit too much for me.
Tried the 5532 in the HPA Gaz but didnt notice much difference.
So which op-amp to try next?
Well, I tried listening to the AD826 again today, but after going through 4-5 different genres of music, most of 'em well recorded (SHM or MSFL versions), I just gave up and chucked it away, popped the old 4032 in instead. Damn, it sounds good :harp:, I love my B-DAC.
For some reason, dunno if its opamp interaction or I just hated the way line out sounded with AD826, but last night it seemed to me the HPA sounded best (with the AD826 in line out and the 4562 in the headphones out, just to remind everybody). Whatever it was, since I use it as source just as much as an HPA, I'll live perfectly happy with the way it is now, with the 4032 on line out.
I was expecting more from the AD826, after all it was the most expensive opamp of the lot, but it was the most disappointing. For a while I'll just enjoy the music, when I get restless again I'll start on the caps & resistors game :)
Jerry,Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
have a go at using the 2132 in the Line out WITHOUT any Opamp in the HeadAmp socket.
I found it cleared the bottom end up a bit, might impact on the bass problems your having?
This way is the best I've heard yet - of any opamp combination, so give it a whirl at least!
* PUTTING AN IDEA OUT TO THE OPAMP ROLLERS OUT THERE *
Theres a lot more people into changing the Opamps in their Dac, and all have different combinations which work for them.
I think it would be great to have a sticky in the forum with everyone pitching in what they are running in their Dac and why they like it?
Just a wee comment maybe, "Good bass and soundstaging" "Great soundstage" that kind of thing?
Its getting difficult to keep up with what everyones tried, their preferences etc, just think this would be a cool thing to be able to refer to?
Gaz.
Perhaps, also, a side-by-side comparison would be nice if some of you live near by and are able to organize something like this. It would be really nice to read your impressions, too.
Good call!Quote:
Originally Posted by Themis
Be good for the Social aspect too?
Nice idea Gaz but maybe a bit pointless as results will be system / Room / Ear / music taste dependent...
Yeah I hear you, but wouldn't it be good to know what other people are runing in their Dacs anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by NRG
Its becoming obvious that theres so many factors which affect the sound of the Dac, would be good maybe to have a "database" to refer to - even if just as a guide and not a rulebook?
Just my £0.02 worth anyways :)
Or you can always read the 140 pages or so of this thread and you'll find out :D
Nice of you to volunteer Gaz! :lol:
Tried it without the 5532 in the HPA. A small improvement I think but I still feel like the bass is turned up too much.
Just as an experiment I will try the 4562 in the line and the 2132 in the HPA.
God I hate these numbers. Can we call them Fred or Joe or something like that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
When your doing the Excel spreadsheet for us AOS'ers Jerry, you can call them what you want?
;)