New Solid Aluminium Platter for the SL1200

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Originally Posted by Marco

All I was looking for, Alex, from Dave was something along the lines of:

'Hi guys, I've been playing with the new platter today and have discovered X, Y, Z, which clearly shows to me that the new platter doesn't in any way negatively impact on the speed stabilty of the drive system, so worry not! Oh, and it sounds fantastic and makes a significant improvement to the performance of the SL-1200...'

Had he done something that, instead of creating a shroud of silence on the matter, I can assure you that we wouldn't be in this unfortunate position now!

All others and I would like is some form of reassurance of the concerns we've raised here. Instead we get indignant silence and a rather arrogant and dismissive air of' I don't have to justify my products to anyone' from Dave, which I'm sorry, I find completely unacceptable.

I can also ASSURE you that his attitude in this matter is not in any way reflecting well on him, despite him putting a favourable spin on it. I've had discussions in private with numerous people and they are all telling me that he's doing himself no favours whatsoever. However, if he wants to put his ego ahead of his best business interests, then of course that's entirely his decision!

I do however fully understand that things are still under development with the platter, so I'm not looking for definitive answers at this stage; merely some basic feedback as to what he has learned. Surely to God that's not too much to ask???

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Marco,

Thank you for a detailed answer, however for me it is easy to understand Dave's position in this case not because I am his friend and partner but because I am an engineer and not less a measurement fun than Dave. For me, as it is for Dave, measurements are a very serious thing and only make sense if done properly. What you asking for does look simple and easy only for you or for somebody who would not understand all nuances involved. It is not a question of a "definitive" answer, it is a question of an honest one. Dave (same as me) would not attempt to "measure" something just to keep customers happy. There are plenty of "measurements" like this in hi-fi industry - those have very little to do with the real performance. In this particular case of a new platter it is a complex question of what to measure and how - to address the real changes that would affect the performance. Most moments discussed in this thread are off target in this respect. Questions of the motor performance and speed stability with new platter just do not make any sense whatsoever unless you look at these in very fine details. All you can really ask from Mike and Dave: "is the platter safe to use on the Technics motor with Mike's bearing?" - and to answer that you don't need measurement details from Dave, as I would guarantee that Dave would not put on sale a potentially unreliable product. The rest is up to a subjective listening at the moment.

Cheers

Alex

Blimey, it's all getting a bit het-up isn't it? ;)

Just a thought, because it's Friday and I'm in a silly mood:

(Approximate secondhand value of SL1200) + (Cost of new Platter) = (Approximate cost of good condition SP10)

:lolsign:

Hi Alex,

Thank you for your detailed answer. I completely understand and appreciate where you're coming from, so there's no need to go further over old ground.

However, this is the crux of the matter:

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All you can really ask from Mike and Dave: "is the platter safe to use on the Technics motor with Mike's bearing?"

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Mike's not the problem here; Dave is.

Indeed, and that's basically all I'm looking for an answer for, along with some idea of if it's a guaranteed all-round sonic improvement. But Dave can't even give us *that much*! :rolleyes:

Some measurements a fellow engineer (such as Anthony TD or Paul Hynes) could analyse to confirm the efficacy of the new platter for the benefit of a wider audience would be great, but if that's not possible at this stage then, no problem.

What you must realise is that I am (although it may not seem it here) on Dave's side, as far as trying to ensure that the new platter is a commercial success in the same way as all the other modifications have been to date for the SL-1200, in no small part due to the help of AOS, but his refusal to work with me on this is unquestionably counterproductive for everyone..................

I get the feeling sometimes that the 'cold and calculating' mentality of engineers is sometimes at odds with the emotive and demanding nature of subjective enthusiasts on forums.

Hey ho, such is life! :cool:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Indeed, and that's basically all I'm looking for an answer for, along with some idea of if it's a guaranteed all-round sonic improvement. But Dave can't even give us *that much*! :rolleyes:

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Marco, as I've pointed out in my previous message it is exactly the wrong question to ask - if Dave would have doubts about the reliability he would not sell the platter. And to question that is to question his honesty as a seller and as an engineer. I can completely understand Dave's reaction to that question.

Alex

Hi Adam,

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Blimey, it's all getting a bit het-up isn't it? ;)

Just a thought, because it's Friday and I'm in a silly mood:

(Approximate secondhand value of SL1200) + (Cost of new Platter) = (Approximate cost of good condition SP10)

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Lol. I think we've been there with that one!

And anyway, didn't you know that this was 'fight Friday'? On AOS, we're all gentlemen and rather too polite for 'fisty cuffs', so we duel to the death instead :fence:

I enjoyed reading David's article on the Brinkmann this month. The D/D fanboys are taking over, me old son! :eyebrows:

Marco.

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Marco, as I've pointed out in my previous message it is exactly the wrong question to ask - if Dave would have doubts about the reliability he would not sell the platter. And to question that is to question his honesty as a seller and as an engineer. I can completely understand Dave's reaction to that question.

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Perhaps that's because you've also got an engineer's mentality and so can relate to his way of thinking in a way I'm not able to? The above hadn't even crossed my mind! In no way though would I expect Dave to sell something that he thought might damage the turntable. Let me make that absolutely clear.

As far as I'm concerned, however, there are no 'right' or 'wrong' questions to ask a hi-fi dealer selling products to people. Let's remember that Dave's one of those too, as well as being an engineer, and so his commercial interests in this matter make him far from unbiased! ;)

Personally I think he struggles with the demands of dealing with inquisitive-minded audio enthusiasts on forums such as this, and is perhaps more at ease in his lab, where everything is 'black and white' in an objective scientific way, and thus easily justified to him - a rather different environment to this, which I'm not sure he's entirely compatible or comfortable with. I'm being deadly serious here!

I always did wonder why Dave wasn't a member of larger forums, such as Pink Fish and Wigwam..... I think if one examines that fact closely enough, in many ways it explains something about what I've alluded to above.

Anyway, I think we should just agree to disagree, matey, otherwise this discussion is destined to go round and round in circles :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Anyway, I think we should just agree to disagree, matey, otherwise this discussion is destined to go round and round in circles :)

Marco.

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OK, no problem.

Cheers

Alex

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Originally Posted by Marco

Personally I think he struggles with the demands of dealing with inquisitive-minded audio enthusiasts on forums such as this, and is perhaps more at ease in his lab, where everything is 'black and white' in an objective scientific way, and thus easily justified to him - a rather different environment to this, which I'm not sure he's entirely compatible or comfortable with. I'm being deadly serious here!

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Well, I've kept out of this thread (other than a reader that has at times been both fascinated and appalled) but IMHO Marco, you're being grossly unfair to Dave here. I have no axe to grind - but for a self confessed (and proudly) subjectivist forum your dogged insistance for some form of measurement that will satisfy your desire for information seems at odds to your otherwise vociferously held stance that its listening that matters.

Given Mr Cawleys relcutance to do this - either because it cannot be done to any degree of meaningfulness, or he doesn't want to - you've latched on to this like a dog with a bone and won't let it go, and in my eyes your attitude has been subtly bullying in this, undermining Dave with little chance for him to have satisfactory recourse without acceding to your 'demands' - not something I expect from a site owner, admin or moderator. It's threads like this that make me less inclined to read and contribute to AoS, as frankly they leave a nasty taste in the mouth. If AoS isn't to be thought of as 'Marco's little fiefdom', where any breach of orthodoxy is boorishly shouted down, I think a long hard look at how you respond to those who hold different views to your own is needed.

Jason

Cheers, Alex :)

Jason, thanks for your input. I will take your points on board. However, rather than going over old ground (I have already answered the point you made in your first paragraph earlier in the thread) and becoming further embroiled in the ins and outs of who's right and who's wrong in this somewhat thorny debate, I'd just like to say this.....

Way back on page 17 of the thread Anthony TD made a rather salient observation to Dave (and Mike) regarding the platter:

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IMHO all it would take to put minds at rest is some comparisons by yourselves on the before and after to show improvements or drawbacks, surely you can see that this would be the best opportunity to advertise and promote the new platter and therefore convince the good people here that it's the right way to go?

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Nine pages on, we're still no nearer to a satisfactory answer. What Anthony has asked for is simply what I've always sought from the beginning.

Therefore, can you tell me what is in any way wrong, unjustified or unreasonable with what we're asking?

Marco.

Marco mate, I suggest this thread is locked for a good while until some definitive answers are forthcoming. This saving faces and preventing any more awkwardness..

I don't know which particular one, but I've been told that the Techie quartz Locked drive was often latched onto cutting-lathe platters (which weigh considerably more than the MN platter) and never suffered in terms of reliability I understand. Furthermore, the only mechanical thing which would suffer is the bearing, and that's already been dealt with..