in other words....
trust the Designer to know a thing or two about a thing or two... ;)
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in other words....
trust the Designer to know a thing or two about a thing or two... ;)
I am not that interested in the Burson due to costs, but im curious as to why it didn't work. Any ideas? I would be more likely to try the Moon discrete opamp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
It didn't work because the minimum operating voltage required is far more than the available operating voltage in the TC-7520 and the Caiman.Quote:
Originally Posted by therockst4r
The distortion figures quoted for the more expensive Moon discrete opamp is 0.0003%. That is still ten times more than the LM4562.
I don't know which opams are used in each and every DAC out there, but I doubt that there are many that have a lower distortion figure than the Caiman. And the ones that do are no doubt uber expensive.
The Moon seems to be much cheaper than the Burson, unless I misread something, and its operating voltage should be low enough to work in the Caiman. An engineer told me that anything under .001% is inaudible anyway, so I am not too concerned. The Moon is specifically designed for high fidelity audio, whereas the LM4562 is not, so it would be interesting to try it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
The operating voltage of the Moon is +/- 9V minimum. That is higher than the maximum the Caiman can handle.Quote:
Originally Posted by therockst4r
Moon only mentions on their website that their opamp uses audiophile grade resistors. It does not mention the same about the transistors they use.Quote:
The Moon is specifically designed for high fidelity audio, whereas the LM4562 is not, so it would be interesting to try it.
The LM4562 is specifically referred to as a high performance audio opamp.
Interesting pdf here on op-amp distortion, theres quite a few tested including those discrete Audio-GD jobs http://www.sg-acoustics.ch/analogue_...mps/index.html
What is the maximum the caiman can handle? I thought the Caiman could handle 10V. Their website is kinda lacking in details I must admit, so I cannot comment on their transistors. As for the LM4562, it is not a bad opamp, its just more geared to integrated devices like CD Players and such. Discrete opamps are more geared to Hi-Fi use. I have never done a direct comparison, but I know people who swear by them, so I would be interested in doing a head to head comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensimilia
The Caiman is +10v but as Stan already mentioned the Moon requires +/-9v ( +9v to ground and -9v to ground) total is 18v
Only other thing is run it from a seperate supply
You guys are amazing!!
When I last read this thread ... before getting the LM4562s for my 7520 ... we were at 78 pages, and now look! ;)
I am truly happy with my purchases. The 7520 is everything I hoped for, driving my STAX Lamdas just wonderfully.
What I also love is the fact that this small unit can fullfil so many tasks.
For the STAX, which have their own amplifcation, it serves as AD converter. For my AKG701s (which I use as "guest phones"), it is a fabulous amp, which runs in parallel to the STAX. Nifty!
And with a pair of M-Audio powered speakers, the 7520 even handles the task of background music.
Few products have been as thoroughly satisfying as this small unit.
Carry on folks, I'm perfectly happy, but it I'll keep reading the thread, because who knows, perhaps the modding bug bites again!
Your talking to a couple of engineers here too.Quote:
Originally Posted by therockst4r
One even designed the Dac. ;)
Its a balance really, and Stan's approach to it is really hitting the mark in my opinion - hence the large following his products have.
I've a Tirna modified 7520 (thanks again guys) and I had another spooky listening moment earlier tonight...
LastFm was on in the background playing random favourite tracks of mine, (my Dacs still running in as I've not had the time since I got it to listen to it much till recently) and I was pottering about the house when I stopped what I was doing and had go into the living room.
A live recording of Bill Hailey "Rock around the clock" from the 1950's no less...and the recording acoustic was spooky.
VERY realistic "life size" images playing along the front wall of my room.
I guess its like what someone said earlier about being ruthlessly revealing of the recording?
It works for good recordings as well Im glad to say. :)
I call it the "Fleet Foxes" effect!
That is one SPOOKY album, with close miked harmonies 2 inches from your nose...
Anyway,
One thing Ive noticed the Caiman doing as it ran in was helping the speakers disappear more and more.
Everythngs rock solid now, sound just comes from the wall now, and occasionally from the sides of the room too
.
Stan how DID you do manage that????
:gig:
Right, my mistake I thought I read that the Caiman was +/-10v. It would be interesting to try it with a separate power supply, but probably not worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by leo
Hi all,
I guess I have found a solution for people having distortion when using 7520 as DAC/AMP with 2 THS4032 installed and using computer as source(mainly foobar) or when playback on a low volume. I am using foobar with WASAPI connect to 7520 through optical cable. I have a song keep having distortion at a specify part. What I do is that I lower the foobar volume to the lowest. I turn the volume knot on 7520 to around 3 o'clock for my HD 600. Then I slowly increase the foobar volume. Increase to a volume where distortion alway comes in. Guess what, The distortion is gone. When I do the other way round. I max out foobar volume and increase the voulme from 7520 knot the distortion come back. I also just an IEM during this test. The distortion really gone alot. I still heard a bit due to IEM. hope this help.
Hi guys, just thought I'd drop in again after my last post and report back.
None of the other opamps I tested were worth their salt.
I cut the MCL 5 / 6 caps and put the 4562NA's back in and this basically rendered everything else a waste of time.
No amount of fiddling with other opamps had anywhere near the same result.
Cut the MCL 5 / 6 with some wire cutters, put in dual 4562NA's, sorted.
:gig:
Looking at upgrading the DAC but I think my soldering skills still leave something to be desired. :)
Zebu,
can I recommend Tirna Electronics to do your Dac mod for you?
I was running the 4562 with Ml5/6 mod and had my Dac chip upgraded to the Wolfsen by them.
Quick turnaround good price.
The improvement will surprise you.
I'll get in contact with them later on tonight, £40 sounds reasonable.
If I fall off my chair because of it, I'm holding you responsible :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZebuTheOxen
If Im wrong I'll eat my hat. (probably) :)
How many have messed around with opamp swaps on the Caiman?
After some heavy listening throughout the week i started to get the feeling i had lost some emotion or 'fun factor' with the stock Caiman versus my 7520+TH4032.
The WM8716 is a good upgrade but i just don't enjoy the 4562NA with my gear, on the Caiman nor the 7520. Although more thansparent than the 5532 (which sounds ok in a Caiman actually) i just find the 4562NA too sterile and a tad bright partnered with the 8716.
Enter the fabled TH4032 on the Caiman which was my preference opamp on my 7520, my initial response was WOW but after testing a few albums as others have found out it is just too strong on the upper freqs and gets tiring very quickly ....but amazing resolution for acoustic tracks.
I have settled on the LT1364 for now, much less fatiguing than the 4032 but with around the same amount of resolution ...i don't know if it's a keeper but it is sounding very good and this particular opamp doesn't have many hours on it so it may actually improve some yet.
Would like to try the AD827 next as these sound like they be the perfect opamp for me going by Trailers findings. The 8716 is really nice though, even the NE5532 with it sounds quite detailed but it is just a little muddy i've found.
AD826
Do a search for it on here and you'll get a few posts.
Cheers mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by trailer
You happen to play around with a OPA2107 in the Caiman also?
Can't remember (!) but I don't think so.Quote:
Originally Posted by marscay
Just curious, what spec data should i look for in the opamp datasheet to know if an opamp will work in a stable manner the 7520? i'm guessing supply voltage is one of them.
I will order a couple of AD826 & OPA2107 and see how they fare in the Caiman, i have a feeling they will both suit me just perfectly - detailed yet slightly laidback is what i am craving with my system.
Try the OPA2132 and enjoy:)Quote:
Originally Posted by marscay
CD
How exactly do you use this David-single or both replaced, additional capacitor, MC5/6 removed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Codifus
Isn't the OPA2132 FET input?
Well the AD826 + Caiman are a great match indeed, think i'll put the case back on :)Quote:
Originally Posted by marscay
I have the OPA2132 in the line-out side. ML5/6 caps clipped. The caps are still there, but the circuit is not complete, so to speak. I'm not sure which chip is on the headphone side anymore, you need magnifying glasses to read these tiny chips, but I either have the LM4562NA or the original NE5532 chip on the headphone side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
I am totally loving it. Very tuneful, lots of rhythm, deep bass. These are my speaker system observations, mind you, not headphones. I've actually never used the headphone side.
Stan, yes it is an FET opamp and it sounds really nice in your 7520.
The LM4562NA I tried before had the advantage of being cleaner as in less distortion for a given volume, but the OPA2132 is so full bodied, rhythmic, and really likes to dance:)
CD
Thanks David. Its not an expensive op-amp so I think I will give it a try. :)
Do i take this to mean that you find the OPA2132 is a bit brighter than the 4562NA? or just more mid-range and bass energy which is where i found the 4562NA a bit lacking with my system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Codifus
Quote:
Originally Posted by marscay
Comparing the OPA2132 to the LM4562NA, the 4562 was brighter. In fact, I'd go so far to say that the LM4562NA was nearly perfect. From 50Hz and up that chip sounded great. In my system, however, I found the bass wanting. Where did the deep bass go? It was there, of course, but not strong enough to really enjoy. My feet wanted to tap but they just weren't feeling it.:confused:
Enter the OPA2132. Better balance. Deep, strong bass. A rhythmic tunefullness that I hadn't noticed before. Something about this chip with percussion and timing. Very intoxicating. Could be a touch warm, though. The top end is a bit more subdued when compared to the 4562. Others have described this chip as "laid back" and I guess that would apply to an extent.
Oh, and now I recall the logic with my switching chips in the headphone socket. With the OPA2132 in the line-out and the 4562 in the headphone socket, the system was definitely a bit too warm. I remembered reading on this forum that the chips in each socket have a influence on the chip in the other socket, so I decided to put the NE5532 chip in the headphone socket to hopefully balance out the sound. Initially I found that NE5532 chip had a tendency to have a "cold" mid-range, and hopefully that tendency would reign in the "warmth" of the OP2132 in the line out socket.
It seems to have worked but I must admitt that it could be in my head as this kind of change is very subtle.
Neither chip is perfect, but the OPA2132 advantages handily outweigh its faults in my setup. Bottom line is that I really, really, like listening to it. I turn on my system and listen for hours again.:smoking:
CD
Hi AoS members,
My current op amp in my 7520 are 4032(line) 49720(hp). I do not have the cap remove on the hp. What do I gain if I remove it? as in the sound will be warmer or better range etc. And one last thing, Did I put this two op amp in the correct way?
Thats it David-I have ordered two OPA2132's. I will hold you personally accountable if I have wasted $8 :lol:
Sounds like a similar opamp to the AD826 & OPA2107.Quote:
Originally Posted by Codifus
I had exactly the same issue with LM4562NA on the Caiman (& also the 7520) ....mid-range and bass lull. Still decent but as you say doesn't get the foot tapping.
I may try a 2132 yet but this stash of opamps is really building up :)
YOU may try the OPA2132? Now you've got me extremely curious about the AD826 and OPA2107! When will this opamp swapping ever end?:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by marscay
CD
Just after we reach that point of satisfaction, yes never hehe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Codifus
Ahh that's great! I thought it was just me...Quote:
Originally Posted by marscay
Going from the 4562NA + MCL5/6 + PCM1716 to the WM8716 DAC, a lot of the frequency ranges sound a bit skew-if compared to previously (On my K701s). Guitars sound ridiculously recessed and harmonic distortion seems more prominent than it was before (Something the K701s are bad with anyway).
I hooked the DAC into my speakers and found the opposite, that everything was better represented than before.
Since I bought this DAC primarily as a headphone amp, this is slightly puzzling.
I've been running it in for about ~140 hours so far with the new DAC, and I'm not sure if my ears are used to it yet. Though from previous experience, when it sounds 'right' it hits you right between the ears straight away.
Solder back the MLC5/6 and do a listening test again.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZebuTheOxen
The 4562NA has been chosen for the Caiman for more than one reason. So don't dispose of them. You might need to dig them up later again...
NOTE OF WARNING: Many opamps are static sensitive! They should be handled with care and avoid touching the pins. I have had a couple of THS4032 fail on me from static breakdown faults.
Stan
Hey Jerry,Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
Could you let me know please where you got your 2132's from?
I'm having trouvle sourcing them in the UK.
Ta,
(My Google-Fu must be weak, I have the flu) :)
Hi Gaz,
I just used Ebay, an American site. They send them first class for buttons and I dont mind waiting. Just put the reference in on Uk Ebay and it should appear at the bottom of the page.
Have you passed on Mike's cables yet?
Jerry
Thanks for that.
Yeah the other Jerry should have had them for a couple of days now :)
Wouldn't dream of throwing opamps away. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB
I'll give that a spin. If it's back to being muddy again, perhaps using smaller caps would help?
The slew on the 4562s is quite low and I imagine that would be of benefit as a result.
I'm thinking of sending my 7520 off to Tirna for the dac change. I notice they have a page up now on the website...
http://www.tirnaelectronics.co.uk/services/Audio.shtml
I am slightly confused by the Caiman spec comment at the bottom though. Are they referring to the MLC5/6 mod?
I dont think that comment is anything to do with the MLC 5/6 mod. Perhaps Stan could enlighten us here. A 7520 with Wolfson Dac and LM4562 is not up to Caiman spec according to Tirna.
Stan would you mind confirming what differences remain between the two?
I have to protect the integrity of the Caiman and the investment of the owners.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
Stan
Fair enough, I am happy with my Wolfson jobby so its back to trying a few more op-amps. :gig:Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB
Try the Caiman bass mod. I am now using 47K, and with very good results.
Men! Listen up! :lol:
No, seriously, I now need a bit of input from yas. Now. I got my 7520 modded with a 4032 on the line out and a 4562 on the headphone section (4032 was giving me too much of everything, so I rolled back on that one). It sounds so damn good on both of them, I just can't see how it can get any better.
Having said that, you guys on this thread must have experienced this before, on your first change, didn't ya? But you went on and made more changes anyway, didn't ya? So, then. I got meself a Wolfson chipset, but I keep looking at it and wondering how can it make things better.
So what I'm asking is this: you guys that have gone for this one already, is this worth it? Is it even marginally better than the PCM1716? Marginally better is good enough for me, any more than that and I'll be delirious. But I need you guys to tell me I'm not gonna ruin a perfectly good thing. I am not, am I?
Come on guys, now's the time to show you're mates and fess up. Should I go do it?
Hi Eddie,
It's not marginally better. It's a significant upgrade.
I was perfectly happy with my 7510, then my 7520 showed me what my 7510 wasn't doing, then the Wolfson DAC change had my jaw hitting the floor.
I think it's one of those cases where ignorance is bliss. If you're loving your 7520 and are just enjoying music from it, then don't fix what isn't broken. If on the other hand (at it sounds like this is the case) your curiosity won't be satisfied until you've heard a Wolfson modded 7520, then you really won't be disappointed. Just make sure you're either well versed in surface mount chip changes, or you know someone who is.
Recommend that you try the wire mod first on your 7510 as you may be happy with that alone.
Regards
I've missed a description of this, presumably a resistor change. Can someone point me to a post describing this? (I have searched for Caiman bass mod)is it the MLC 5/6 mod?Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyB