Gromit's music centre...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics

As you will no doubt be aware, probably the best hi fi possible would be to do away with the transformers and directly drive electrostatic speakers from amplifiers capable 2-5KV output! Ideal for a valve or hybrid amp as it removes both the output transformer in the valve amp and the input transformer in the esl speakers.. Audio Nirvana! It was done commercially in the late 70's in the form of the Acoustat X (claimed by some to be the best speaker ever made). I recently had a look at the circuit diagrams for the amps and they were really crude....
Big enough ESL's with the right driving amps can do all the max SPL and slam anyone could possibly need as well.
Cost of course is the problem.... Although there are of course speakers selling for £50,000+ so maybe not that much of a problem other than the cost of parts in the £50K speakers is probably only £2K whilst it would be more like £5-10K for the ultimate electrostatic..

---

Yes, I know of the Acoustats. There were several teething problems if I recall. Never actually heard any, but they were on my radar.

These days were I to replace my Quads it would be with something from Martin Logan, or possibly Ed Saunders. Many years ago I heard some Dutch manufactured ESLs at an audio fair in London. They were superb (I can't remember the name, think it had "-stat" in t), but I have heard there were reliability problems. Not sure if they are still made.

I'm not aware of anyone currently making direct drive ESLs, so there must be a reason. Reliability, EU Health and Safety rulings, .... ?

If you were to design a valve anode coupled amplifier for ESLs, what would you choose for the valve?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barry

Yes, I know of the Acoustats. There were several teething problems if I recall. Never actually heard any, but they were on my radar.

These days were I to replace my Quads it would be with something from Martin Logan, or possibly Ed Saunders. Many years ago I heard some Dutch manufactured ESLs at an audio fair in London. They were superb (I can't remember the name, think it had "-stat" in t), but I have heard there were reliability problems. Not sure if they are still made.

I'm not aware of anyone currently making direct drive ESLs, so there must be a reason. Reliability, EU Health and Safety rulings, .... ?

If you were to design a valve anode coupled amplifier for ESLs, what would you choose for the valve?

---

I heard the Acoustats once and was impressed! Was "Audiostatic" the name of the Dutch company? I'm not sure but also remember them.... Then there was the B&W DM70 treble driver, Shackleton or something similar treble units, the Indian Cadence units etc...

Health and safety would be a major problem with full range, also full SPL range, directly driven ESL's yes and one of the biggest cost implications if they were to be safe. High quality, safe, reliable and hum free 10KV PSU's don't come cheap either!

I didn't have a specific valve type in mind but was thinking in terms of transmitter valves which can routinely take 10KV and would be just ticking over delivering 2000WPC @ 10,000V for the bass panels and should last years. "Little" things like 845's should just about suffice for the treble panels:D

I had in mind something about the size of a door here BTW...

The possibility of "Motional feedback" here could not be ignored either! We have the possibility of a speaker capable of less than 0.05% THD across the full audio bandwidth and flat +/- 1dB or better from 20Hz - 20KHz... A quantum leap in performance!

As an engineer I'd love the challenge of such a thing, the electronics side of it anyway, but alas for someone like myself it would need guaranteed customers before R&D was even started... it could bankrupt even a 10 man company to put that much into R&D and then not sell any!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reffc

That is totally erroneous...plain wrong I'm afraid Dave!

The fact is that they've been at the same price for years up until last year, so have had to go up in price. The issues are very simple: Changes to the design, changes to the range, the falling pound against the dollar have all combined with a need to raise prices to reflect the additional investment that the founders had to make in order to increase production and improve reliability of production and distribution. These things all cost money.

The entry level R-50 Bloom cost £565 for a fair number of years with no price hikes. Now that the pound has fallen against the dollar by 30% (and this matters because the largest ZYX market is the USA so they are priced to export there), then the "old" price would realistically now become about £735. However, they couldn't keep prices as they were and keep the company afloat or improve production or distribution channels, so given the new range, the better availability and the necessary pre-Brexit price hike needed, then the £850 for the all new R-50Mk3 is STILL a very good price compared with just about any equivalent competition. Most of the R-50 competition is above £1000 anyway, and always was in reality. I certainly haven't heard anything this side of £1K to better them.

---

You may well be right, but there's so much crap talked about cartridges, some companies maintaining prices fairly well and others made in the same country doubling in price over the last ten years. I understand from Rega that cantilever-diamond assemblies are bought in bulk, probably from the same supplier and then mounted to the coil formers. yes, I know that accuracy in fitting all the parts together can be labour intensive, but I have to say from experience that cachet and status counts for a heck of a lot of the retail price.*

*I cite hifi Dave's long-standing story as told by Ortofon regarding, I think, an MC2000 (sold for several hundred quid I recall) with foo-hard but brittle ceramic or similar body. His dem one was broken and a free replacement was sent; free, because the packaging cost more than the cartridge in material terms if nothing else. Check with him if you don't believe me...

So much bullshit floating around the so-called luxury 'Top End' of our industry where things are priced for status and cachet and even the Chinese imported products at around £350 retail come in for well under a ton, more like £60 if fairly recent experiences serve still...

Cynical? ME??? Well, I've been kicking around this industry now for around forty five years man and beast (make it over fifty since I started buying audio magazines and mopping up the info inside them) and seeing how certain personalities milk their customers dry does tend to have a lasting impact. Still, very few here and on other HiFi forums ever seem to buy new product via a retailer, preferring to buy used kit that's been around the block a few times, so I suppose it's moot...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barry

That was a project of yours. How is it progressing?

---

Well it's more a case of asking Nick to build the amps for me, that kind of stuff is well beyond my knowledge.

In answer to your question, it hasn't, Nick is a busy man.

We'll get round to it sometime. :-)

:hijack:

I thought this was meant to be about Gromit's system?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scooby

:hijack:

I thought this was meant to be about Gromit's system?

---

So did I!! :scratch:

Thread drift is normal and expected. Extremes can be addressed, but that's not happened here.

tell me where you want it edited from and they can go into another thread if thats your wish

Here I was, hoping to hear more about your recent acquisitions, especially the Exposure vs Cyrus after you left us all in suspenders yesterday! Interesting debate going on, but not what I tuned in for :offtopic:

After 116 pages, I'm sure there is room for some thread drift. AoS is notorious for it!

Also it ought to be remembered that Members do not 'own' the threads they have started; anyone is free to contribute and thread drift is a possible consequence.

So with that, back to Gromit.

Oh...and some piccies please :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brian2957

Oh...and some piccies please :D

---

Pretty please! I'm getting addicted :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by struth

tell me where you want it edited from and they can go into another thread if thats your wish

---

No damage done - it makes for interesting(ish) reading ;)

Sorry to those expecting an earlier blow-by-blow report on my own little amp bake-off, had a very busy hifi-day (the joys of semi-retirement!). :)

Ok...

Although the Super XV's phonostage is superb - one of the best I've heard in any integrated - it is bettered by the P75 in PE mode.

As to an outright winner between the amps, it's hard to call but contrary to what I'd expected I'd have to give the nod to the Cyrus 8vs/PSX-R. It's more rounded, with greater heft and clarity over the Exposure. More music genre agnostic, and a broader musical picture. It has most of the groove of the Exposure but with the advantage of giving the listener a more open window on tiny details. It also sounds a lot more powerful and just gets a bigger sound from the Royds. Most of the music today was jazz, a lot of fusion (Chick Corea/Dave Weckl etc) where tomorrow we're doing some prog and rock (early Genesis/Rush/Yes etc) with a good dose of big band too. Who knows, it may swing the other way.

Piccies will follow tomorrow, I promise. :)

Nice write up Richard , you've been doing a bit of box swapping the last wee while :)

It's nice to have the time to sit down and listen to ones system in a relaxed manner , and make your mind up about what you're hearing . I look forward to some pictures of what you were listening to and talking about :)

Cheers Brian - the Cyrus amp has been a very pleasant surprise over this last 12 months (yes I've kept an amp that long!). Their stuff does get a lot of ridicule on the forums but from what this little amp has given me, I can see (hear) why it is still liked by many.

Marmite? Probably - but certainly none the worse IME. :)

Few more piccies...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/569/32...a1c1f0a1_b.jpgVolume by Boxertrixter, on Flickr

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/371/31...0e42fc99_b.jpgPair by Boxertrixter, on Flickr

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/372/31...e44478d4_b.jpgSystem by Boxertrixter, on Flickr

Another couple of hours this morning doing some fiddling about. As a huge fan of Exposure for nearly 25 years, I really hoped the Super XV would prove to be a better amp than the Cyrus but the silver boxes have it beaten. The Exposure is - at a smidge - easier to listen to but the Cyrus just digs out more detail and dynamics. The bass is better, being not only stronger but with a more defined sense of pitch, which is when all's said the grounding for harmony.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gromit

Few more piccies...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/569/32...a1c1f0a1_b.jpgVolume by Boxertrixter, on Flickr

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/371/31...0e42fc99_b.jpgPair by Boxertrixter, on Flickr

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/372/31...e44478d4_b.jpgSystem by Boxertrixter, on Flickr

Another couple of hours this morning doing some fiddling about. As a huge fan of Exposure for nearly 25 years, I really hoped the Super XV would prove to be a better amp than the Cyrus but the silver boxes have it beaten. The Exposure is - at a smidge - easier to listen to but the Cyrus just digs out more detail and dynamics. The bass is better, being not only stronger but with a more defined sense of pitch, which is when all's said the grounding for harmony.

---

Beautiful pictures as ever Richard . I haven't heard a Cyrus amp for years mate , and TBH they've always been pretty low down on my wish list , glad you're enjoying them .
You've also had the little Teac DAC for a long time , do you use it ?

You've also went back to Royds , haven't you ? I've had A7s and Minstrels , however I found them a bit bright when I went digital . How do they compare to the Q Acoustics ?

Beautiful looking hi-fi system there Richard, superb photpgraphy also...... wow.

I'm not that well up on the Cyrus amps you've in your hi-fi system, is that a Cyrus Pre & Power amp combo in your system then..?

Regards;
Pete

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by macvisual

Beautiful looking hi-fi system there Richard, superb photpgraphy also...... wow.

I'm not that well up on the Cyrus amps you've in your hi-fi system, is that a Cyrus Pre & Power amp combo in your system then..?

Regards;
Pete

---

Thanks Pete. :)

The 2-box Cyrus is the 8vs integrated with PSX-R power supply. I bought the amp on its own to start with during a late-night wine-induced bout of eBay BiB button clicking (seriously!). Once in the system though, I was very pleasantly surprised by its abilities, in fact I'd say it was the first amp through these doors which was a genuine upgrade to the Sony 770ES.

The PSX-R just adds weight and clarity - and great value (used) too. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gromit

Thanks Pete. :)

The 2-box Cyrus is the 8vs integrated with PSX-R power supply. I bought the amp on its own to start with during a late-night wine-induced bout of eBay BiB button clicking (seriously!). Once in the system though, I was very pleasantly surprised by its abilities, in fact I'd say it was the first amp through these doors which was a genuine upgrade to the Sony 770ES.

The PSX-R just adds weight and clarity - and great value (used) too. :)

---

Cheers for that info! Any idea which Cyrus power-amp/s may suit a passive pre-amp me wonders...? Having a nightmare trying to find a power amplifier or mono-blocks at the minute to suit my hi-fi system.

Thanks;
Pete

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by macvisual

Cheers for that info! Any idea which Cyrus power-amp/s may suit a passive pre-amp me wonders...? Having a nightmare trying to find a power amplifier or mono-blocks at the minute to suit my hi-fi system.

Thanks;
Pete

---

Pete - a passive pre with Cyrus power, I'd have absolutely no idea I'm afraid. I think in such instances a Cyrus pre would be the best choice. If I don't keep the Exposure Super XV I may go for a Cyrus X-Power to bi-amp the Royds.

IME (having - briefly - owned one) and from general forum banter, the Cyrus preamps are the weak link in their catalogue.
The one I had (sorry, forgotten the model) was mediocre in the extreme. Just opaque and boring and bland. It just closed the music down. A passive pre in a Cyrus system or with a Cyrus power amp would be a very interesting thing to try, imo.

And Exposure gear. :scratch:
I was at a bake off quite a few years ago, and someone brought along a 'classic' exposure amp.
Everyone else was drooling down their shirt fronts at the sound when inserted into the system - but it just seemed rolled off, coloured and cloudy to me. Your missing the point, they laughed. Bugger me if there was a point!

A few years later I tried again, a dealer had a 21RC pre on a good deal. Bought it - sheesh, nothing special at all. It was better than that classic amp, but very ordinary.

Maybe Exposure just do things differently, and you have to be in to that particular vibe to appreciate it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jandl100

And Exposure gear. :scratch:
I was at a bake off quite a few years ago, and someone brought along a 'classic' exposure amp.
Everyone else was drooling down their shirt fronts at the sound when inserted into the system - but it just seemed rolled off, coloured and cloudy to me. Your missing the point, they laughed. Bugger me if there was a point!

---

The point was you weren't a blinkered fanboy! ;)

Can't stand that sort of pish - folk 'married' to a particular brand... Utter nonsense, and a sign of gross insecurity. If it sounds shit, then it is SHIT, no matter who makes it!! :exactly:

To the fanboys I would say: WAKE UP, remove the blinkers from yer peepers, and embrace REALITY...

Marco.

Must admit, I have little or no time for those who become evangelical over certain brands - even more so when it's to the detriment of other kit. Those who know me, will understand I've been a fan of Exposure amps for many years but would never state them as the be-all. As an all-round package I'd even say my Cyrus rig is the better of the 2 amps I own presently. The Exposure is also extremely fussy where speaker cable and warm-up is concerned. Regarding the latter, it really does take the amp 24 hours to come on-song (this is easy to demonstrate - providing one has the time of course!) or at least a couple of hours' hard use, from being switched off for any length of time.

Regarding cable - I've been using NVA LS6 for a few years now and am yet to find an amp which doesn't like it. The Exposure though (from past experience) really does prefer a simple, multi-strand copper cable of decent weight, ie its own or something very similar. To that end, I purchased some Van Damme Hifi (4mm) from Mark Grant the other day which works incredibly well - even driving the amp hard it doesn't even get the slightest bit warm so clearly a perfect match, electrically. :)

Always found Exposure gear good but not as good as some would have you believe... Ultimately a bit lacking in transparency and a little "thick" sounding...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gromit

..... it doesn't even get the slightest bit warm so clearly a perfect match,

---

Crikey :eek:

Couldn't let that go, if you have warmed up speaker cables in the past you must have been using some pish :eyebrows:

Tell me that's a joke ......

Might get hottish at amp end, but shouldnt anywhere else

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firebottle

Crikey :eek:

Couldn't let that go, if you have warmed up speaker cables in the past you must have been using some pish :eyebrows:

Tell me that's a joke ......

---

Get it all glowing, that's what I say. :D

The amp getting warm...natch. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gromit

Regarding cable - I've been using NVA LS6 for a few years now and am yet to find an amp which doesn't like it. The Exposure though (from past experience) really does prefer a simple, multi-strand copper cable of decent weight, ie its own or something very similar. To that end, I purchased some Van Damme Hifi (4mm) from Mark Grant the other day which works incredibly well - even driving the amp hard it doesn't even get the slightest bit warm so clearly a perfect match, electrically. :)

---

Interesting, I found the same when I started using my Exposure III / IV combo, I use the 2.5mm Van Damme HiFI, electrically as you say this cable is perfect for even the crankiest old amps, the clue is in the wide spacing between the conductors. Hmm I wonder if the 4mm would make any difference... my head says no, but my heart still wants to try. :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

The point was you weren't a blinkered fanboy! ;)

Can't stand that sort of pish - folk 'married' to a particular brand... Utter nonsense, and a sign of gross insecurity. If it sounds shit, then it is SHIT, no matter who makes it!! :exactly:

To the fanboys I would say: WAKE UP, remove the blinkers from yer peepers, and embrace REALITY...

Marco.

---

Surely that's a bit strong isn't it Marco?

Just because one person thinks something is shit as you put it doesn't necessarily make it shit in everyone's eyes.

I really like Exposure amplification and regularly defend it against Naimies who say it couldn't possibly equal or better Naim equipment, but I'm also not blinkered enough to think it can't be bettered. For instance I recently heard a Belles integrated amp against my Exposures that was nicer to listen to, so therefore arguably better, and had I been in a financial position to buy it I probably would have done.

It also depends on many different factors, what speakers you're using, what source, etc. etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pjdowns

Surely that's a bit strong isn't it Marco?

---

I could be wrong here, but I think you've misinterpreted the point Marco was trying to make.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pjdowns

Surely that's a bit strong isn't it Marco?

Just because one person thinks something is shit as you put it doesn't necessarily make it shit in everyone's eyes.

I really like Exposure amplification and regularly defend it against Naimies who say it couldn't possibly equal or better Naim equipment, but I'm also not blinkered enough to think it can't be bettered. For instance I recently heard a Belles integrated amp against my Exposures that was nicer to listen to, so therefore arguably better, and had I been in a financial position to buy it I probably would have done.

It also depends on many different factors, what speakers you're using, what source, etc. etc.

---

It's vastly better than Naim yes!:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by narabdela

I could be wrong here, but I think you've misinterpreted the point Marco was trying to make.

---

Maybe, I wasn't having a go, just thought the statement was a little strong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics

It's vastly better than Naim yes!:D

---

I agree ;)

Anyway. Regardless of all that. I like the way Richard's system looks. Very smart and classy, as I'm sure the sounds are too. Nice bit of photography by the way. :thumbsup:

Agree, the system is looking impressive :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by narabdela

I could be wrong here, but I think you've misinterpreted the point Marco was trying to make.

---

Quite... I have nothing against Exposure equipment (indeed, I rather like it), but if as Jerry says, the sound produced at that bake-off (with the Exposure stuff) was, shall we say, nothing special, then that verdict should've been acknowledged by the assembled listeners.

I got the impression, and Jerry can confirm this or not, that the 'Exposure fanboys' present didn't necessarily disagree, but simply because it was Exposure, Jerry somehow had 'missed the point'... Which begs the question: what exactly was the point? :hmm:

And if it was simply to uncritically wank over some box (or boxes) that had an Exposure badge on it/them, then *that* nonsense is what I have ZERO time for, regardless of whether the gear concerned is from Exposure, Naim, Linn, NVA or The Harry Halfwit Company!

I take it you get where I'm coming from better now, Paul? ;)

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

or The Harry Halfwit Company!

.

---

Think I had one of their amps years ago.

Naim fanbois are the worst!

Perhaps... I just can't stand any form of blinkered fanboyism or (misplaced) 'brand loyalty'. It suggests an innate insecurity/lack of gumption in the character of those afflicted, and leads to the creation of cliques.

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Quite... I have nothing against Exposure equipment (indeed, I rather like it), but if as Jerry says, the sound produced at that bake-off (with the Exposure stuff) was, shall we say, nothing special, then that verdict should've been acknowledged by the assembled listeners.

I got the impression, and Jerry can confirm this or not, that the 'Exposure fanboys' present didn't necessarily disagree, but simply because it was Exposure, Jerry somehow had 'missed the point'... Which begs the question: what exactly was the point? :hmm:

And if it was simply to uncritically wank over some box (or boxes) that had an Exposure badge on it/them, then *that* nonsense is what I have ZERO time for, regardless of whether the gear concerned is from Exposure, Naim, Linn, NVA or The Harry Halfwit Company!

I take it you get where I'm coming from better now, Paul? ;)

Marco.

---

Gotcha, that makes a lot more sense now you've explained it in different wording.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics

Naim fanbois are the worst!

---

Bar none!

Thanks for the input - and of course the kind comments about my little rig. :)

There are many types/makes of equipment which have me scratching my head as to why folk like it (I won't list them here). In fact, judging by their choice, I've even wondered if they've actually listened to any live music in their lives - however if what they listen to makes them happy, then that's fine. Just don't start preaching to me. Jeez, some people don't even like Marmite. <scratches head again> ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gromit

There are many types/makes of equipment which have me scratching my head as to why folk like it (I won't list them here). In fact, judging by their choice, I've even wondered if they've actually listened to any live music in their lives - however if what they listen to makes them happy, then that's fine.

---

Indeed... It's the 'evangelism', displayed by associated acolytes, that causes problems - almost as if some folk need a 'guru' to follow or someone/something (verging on a form of religion) to *believe in*, as much as a stereo to listen to their music on! :doh:

Sad puppies....

Anyway, I very much approve of the recent additions to your system. Judicious choices, as usual, Richard. Enjoy the music, mate :cool:

Marco.

Super XV...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2719/3...83ed65a4_b.jpgSuper XV by Boxertrixter, on Flickr

Hana EL...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2611/3...70229f6e_b.jpgHana EL by Boxertrixter, on Flickr

Spinning some tunes...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2288/3...1c58fdb8_b.jpgLP12 by Boxertrixter, on Flickr

It's still here - was going to update my sig line but my rig's not changed in nearly 4 years. :D

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...30f19769_b.jpgLight Musik by Boxertrixter, on Flickr

Hope all are keeping well on AoS.

Hi Richard,

:wave::wave:

Great seeing you checking in again! Hope the family and you are well and staying safe:)

I guess if your system's remained unchanged you must be pretty happy with it and just enjoying ya choons - not a bad place to be, matey! Fantastic photography as usual... Anyway, hang around more when you can and don't be such a stranger in future:cool:

Marco.