But you buy petrol in litres, and work out fuel economy in MPG :scratch:
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But you buy petrol in litres, and work out fuel economy in MPG :scratch:
Do the French do that?Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH
I mostly use metric when working, I find it easier to work with whole numbers. eg 630mm + 415mm, whereas calculating in imperial with the attendant fractions (eg 14 and 3/8 + 7 and 1/4) a pain.
But for most other things imperial for me.
Trip meter on the bike is odd, fuel consumption is in miles/litre. That does my head in.
Metric does have other handy properties though for calculating - one litre of water = one kg, and a cubic metre of water = one metric tonne. Again makes calculations easier, though of course not everyone wants a cubic metre of water - if for example you want a floor in your garage, concrete is better :)
I worked with manufacturing food products and we certainly did not use imperial measurements in the factory or when I was developing products. Product information was converted afterwards sometimes into both metric and imperial or public use.
I think schools nowadays mainly use metric units as do the science and industrial/ manufacturing industries.
No, they use Litres/100kmQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
this is why I said metric for science and imperial for everyday. Production processes would count as 'science'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Schools have not taught imperial measurements for decades but youngsters still use them in everyday situations.
I still use imperial units at work. Most fasteners we use are imperial, but with metric equivalence tables in all reference documents.
Switching between the two is relatively easy.
However, when I do DIY with the family, I have to be careful which tape measure I give them, as a combined metric/imperial version confuses them.
To get back to Hi-fi - UK magazines and sites quoting loudspeaker cab size and driver size only in metric is them being wilfully obtuse.
I think this is a partly political, and partly 'I'm a science person so I use metric even when it's totally inappropriate and fuck you.'
If this wasn't so they would give the measurements in both systems.
What's extra laughable is that the review wlll likely be full of absurd poetic rambling and no science at all.
I think the manufacturers only include imperial measurements as a courtesy to the US, Myanmar and Liberia, the only three countries left who can't or won't understand metric.
Imv the only reason America isn't using metric is because it wasn't their idea.
And to get an idea of the mindset of the average American, forget the science programmes on Discovery, and watch Jerry Springer instead :sofa: The exception being our American AoS members of course :)
this video explains why:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYqfVE-fykk
:lol: Funny because it's true.
Many years ago the US seriously considered going metric. They abandoned the idea because it would have been too expensive to implement.
And massively unpopular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry
Think it was Jimmy Carter. Early 70s I'd say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry
It wouldn't have cost much to go metric with petrol. They don't do proper gallons anyway.
I have just been reading an article about Dolby Atmos, Sony 360 reality audio and Apple spatial audio and interestingly there was a nugget of information how the technology works and how I think this may apply to what I am experiencing with my room / speaker and listening position evaluation.
Apparently the spatial audio works by adjusting the audio frequencies so each ear experiences variation in the position of the sound. This can pinpoint sounds and precise placement of audio effects in a 360 degrees arrangement. This got me thinking that in effect what I am doing with speaker toe-in, acoustic treatment, speaker position and seating position is to basically alter the frequencies I receive by moving various aspects of the sound. Obviously this alters the timing those frequencies hit my ear but also affect the actual frequency that reaches me.
Messing about with the frequencies results in me hearing a different perspective of the sound and therefore everything contained in it. Spatial awareness ie soundstage ambience and imaging are therefore manipulated to sound quite different as is the information that is contained in the frequency hitting my ear. It is a complex thing as every part of the sound is generated not only by the speaker and its position but also by everything else it interacts with in the room and ultimately where you are sitting. Now I know some of this may sound obvious but its implications are big as quite radical changes can be made to what and how you hear your system just by moving things around and applying room treatment, soft furnishings or simply moving your listening position as this determines the position of the frequencies hitting you ear.
But the trick is to get all those parts that influence the sound to work in the best way to achieve or get the best out of your system. I am still surprised as to the degree of change I have achieved over the last week or so and it has meant running through a long list of recordings I know well in order to discover what these effects have done to the recording. In many cases information in the recordings especially ambience around performers and instruments has been revealed to a much greater degree and tonal frequencies have become more complex and much richer.
I am genuinely excited by this as it has allowed me to upgrade my system at no extra cost. What I don't know however is if this is very specific to the room and equipment I have or if I insert another piece of equipment it would mean starting all over again?
That's my problem having a hard core of about 3 or 4 amps and several others if I could be arsed and a few Dacs I could swap in an out of if I wanted to, ensuring free entry to the local asylum:eek:
I have a theory James.
The way we hear music is dependant on three things: The quality of the audio equipment at one end, the space between the equipment and our ears, and the part of our brain that processes the sounds that reach our ears. Perhaps the processor in your brain is of "dolby atmos" quality, as opposed to mine which is probably 70s Amstrad quality. The importance of the part this processor plays cannot be understated, it affects the way we perceive and enjoy music more than any other part of the audio chain.
And so you're able to pick up on the tiny nuances of sound, which can be affected by altering the timing of direct and reflected sounds as they reach your ears, enabling you to perceive differing 'acoustics'.
This has nothing to do with how good our hearing is, but rather to do with how our brains interpret what reaches them. And so a visitor may not hear what you hear. Just means you're more sensitive to those changes.
How's that for audio rambling? Reading it back I think perhaps much of what I said is cack, but it took so long to type with two fingers I'm going to post it anyway :)
No Steve, every opinion is a valid one as you have identified we all reconstruct sound in our brains differently and therefore you are absolutely correct. I am sure if someone else where to listen to my system they would have a completely different experience to me and there is the truth. All we hear and all the gear we use is specific to ourselves and what we enjoy so there are never any right or wrongs just individual choice based on individual listening preferences. Hence that's why we all have different gear and like different music. Ok sometimes paths will cross and we end up with some stuff the same but I bet no two audiofools have exactly the same system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony
But there again no two audio fools will ever have exactly the same room with the same furnishings and the same system. The chances are very remote!
I like to just ramble on on my experiences and hope they may get some folk to either try something with their room /system they may have not done before or just contemplate what is happening and put some thought process to how and what we hear based on the equipment we listen to and the room /set up we have.
Personally my main objective is just to try and get my thoughts down in some sort of coherent order before they vanish and I become a jibbering old fool....but maybe that is what I am already?:)
Good idea to document all the changes to your system/room and how they did or didn't improve things, so that you may refer to it if you need to "go back" with some aspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Especially if your memory is as poor as mine - I've forgotten more than I'll ever know :)
A very valid point Steve, we are after all different but very similar at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony
Our brains as you say are all wired differently and probably experience music differently based on a vast number number of criteria. However in my musical experience when I used to play(try) guitar in several amateur bands, playing pop/rock, rock and jazz I did discover several interesting things. Firstly certain aspects of music can be learnt and improvement can result in a better appreciation or felling of what you are listening to, one very important aspect is tempo. My ability to keep time and recognise signature times (4/4, 3/4, 5/4. 6/8 etc) initially was appalling but with training and playing music with others this became easier and more natural. Of course one critical aspect is tuning or perception of it, I believe it has been said that one man's middle C is not another, I personally believe that is plain rubbish, middle C is 278.4375 Hz (if the instrument is correctly tuned. Once again I thought I had a good ear when it came to recognising when an instrument was in or out of tune, well the answer was yes and no, originally I could hear when my guitar was in tune but if another in the bad was out of tune to mine who was right and who was wrong. this can cause all sorts of issues when band member tune their instruments to another which is intrinsically our of tune. I won't go into the maths of music but tuning to a high or low frequency instrument like a bass or alto sax is fraught with issues, the band may very well sound in tune with each other but can sound odd when listened to as a whole. With time and lots of playing with others I became more adapt at tuning my own instrument and recognising when others were wrong.
So what is the point of my ramble, over about 6 years my brain became more able to hear different tempos and rhythms, and scale, and I was better able to hear a tune and how the notes/chords related to each through improvisation, basically my musical appreciation improved. My wife is a very good example of a person who says she does not appreciate music or my system, how often have we heard that? She says she cannot hear any difference musically between my system or say our Apple Home Pod, but if I put the same piece of much on both she can hear the audible difference an SQ. She says she is tone deaf, which is rubbish as she knows when she is off pitch when she attempts to sing, and says her singing is awful. Her issue with singing is she was not taught as a child how to sing the basic Do Ra Me Fa So La Ti Do scale in any key and control her voice box to do so. We all can do so with different levels of success, this is a basic starting point musically for an individual to be able to appreciate what it is hearing musically, the brain needs a term of reference to make sense of musical structure.
Ultimately I think this may be why one person can hear subtle differences in one system to another and another will not.
If your brain was 1970s Amstrad it would have already have failed - probably catastrophically - by about June 1980.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony
It did. Thank God Dr Steepletone was on shift that day :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
I have opened a can of worms when I thought TT oil would be a fairly straight forward simple job but as in all things hifi this appears not to be the case. I must admit it is something I have rarely done - probably only once with my VPI although I have done some cleaning and restoration on a Lenco GL75 bearing and spindle. But TT bearing oil seems to be another strangely bizarre aspect of performance I took for granted and thought it was not that important. I must confess I am not an expert on all areas of hifi and learn by trial and error and lots of research. However my investigation into TT bearing oil was brief and half hearted. I simply took for granted that a motor oil could be used as recommended by the TT manufacturer although I used a 30W rather than 40W.
This has had implications and challenged my knowledge and thinking. TT oil is as I am beginning to realise is another influence on sound. Now that I have looked into it further I have opened pandoras box! The possibilities maybe endless as I do have a wide range of oils I could experiment with. I would have left well alone if I had not experienced a negative aspect to my listening last night which can only be accounted for by the changes I made to the oil. I did not want to really believe it could be so but after hearing some issues I went away and researched a little and that is when I realised some of what I experienced could indeed be attributed to the change of oil!:doh:
I have found that bearing oil can lower the noise floor and therefore allow a greater audible dynamic range. Surface noise on the record can also reduce allow for greater detail to be observed. This chimes exactly with what I heard last night but as in all things hifi it was not a massive night and day difference. During Christmas I had experienced a big uplift in the SQ from my system due to some of the changes I had made to speaker toe-in and listening position. These were not so apparent after I had changed the TT oil!
As I mentioned on my "Turntable Lube" post I had lost some air and ambient information which was also critical to the impressions I was getting from the soundstage which had been significantly enhanced due to messing with listening room. There were certain vocals that had previously had great ambience and space around them and indeed greater presence in the room. These were knocked back by the change of oil! At first I did not want to believe or acknowledge it but as I have now listened more there has definitely been a negative effect.
Also the soundstage has shrunk and become flatter and there is less openness to the sound. These are subtle cues in the listening experience and were not apparent when I first changed the oil but as I went through more well known material they became obvious. So I have decided to go through the whole oil replacement procedure again and this time return to some Audio Origami bearing oil which indeed I had used before. But I may go off piste and try something else in the meantime and do a little experimentation as I have a hunch something else may work!:scratch:
Interesting post James. I bought a used Planar 3 as a Christmas present to myself recently and wasn't sure when the bearing was last serviced. Firstly, I tried some Audio Origami oil, however, I thought the sound was a bit thin and weedy. I then used some gear oil and have been happy with the SQ. I know every turntable/bearing is different but I look forward to your findings here.
Thanks Brian, I was not really aware bearing oil could make such a difference, at least audible difference. But it is unmistakable now I know what I am looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
I think you are right in that each Turntable will be influenced differently by changing to do different types of oil.
As I have found, oil is not simply for making the platter go round smoothly and stopping wear on the metal parts!!:doh::lol:
I'd have thought that would be exactly what it was for, but then maybe it's not a case of oil is oil is oil. Varying engineering tolerances and motor torque between turntables may call for different viscosities. Maybe your choice of engine oil is simply too thick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Anyway, it's good that we have someone with 'golden ears' and the patience and determination to keep plugging away (yes that's you James) :)
I wish I hadn't started on this one Steve, its not like I am looking for things to do!:) I am alarmed to find someone else on another forum used the exact same oil as myself and then changed to a more suitable oil and had dramatic results. This just sends my audiophile nervosa into overdrive!:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony
If the oils too thick I suppose it could retard the platter speed slightly
I've always thought that the popularity of the cheaper Rega decks was at least partly down to the fact that they run slightly too fast.
Not sure if its all to do with speed or transfer of vibration through the bearing and plinth? Different oils certainly have different properties and thus maybe difference effects on the turntable sound?Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
If the oil is too thick, you could have drag affecting the speed stability. If it is too thin, you could have increased vibrations.
The only issue with the AO Booster is that it does not specify what grade it is. They also do a thick version.
Finding a fully synthetic mono grade SAE 30 or 40 could mean looking at garden machinery oils, as they usually are only run in the summer.
The other thing to look at is the API rating. It has two letters for Petrol engine oil, starting with S. As a rough guide, the higher the 2nd letter, the higher the quality of the oil. But remember, this is a turntable bearing, so a good quality mineral or synthetic oil should be fine, as it is not exposed to heat or contamination.
I have some lawn mower oil so I will check that out too. I also have a range of specialist cycle oils, some of which maybe suitable. I have a feeling it maybe only through experimentation will I know what works. Knowing the viscosity of an oil is one thing but translating that into how it affects turntable performance and thus SQ is another.
It is fairly easy for me to change the oil in my VPI TT so I think it will end up being a new venture for 2024 although it was not one I had planned. I will post up my findings as they maybe useful for other users although I am not sure how my results with different oils will necessarily translate to other types of turntable?
Listening to the system this evening and as I approached 9.00pm there was a noticeable up tick in sound quality. I know this has been discussed before but I am sure what is happening is a reduction in noise floor. Background to the music became inky black and there was a marked increase in clarity and dare I say musicality. You just get drawn into the music more.
Less electrical mush on the line as demand is reduced later at night, yup, it’s a thing.
Annoyed me to the point I went down the balanced mains route to power my gear.
Get that 2am sound quality all of the day.
I've experienced the exact same thing but it had nothing to do with the mains supply, which is always noisy and distorted any time of day or night.
What was the cause of your noise Martin?Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
car journey home from work, during a heatwave, with the windows open.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Funny thing was my ears would open up again around the same time every night - about 1930 - and I'd go from thinking 'I really need to upgrade this system' to 'My God this sounds amazing.'
I also assumed it was the mains quality (there is fairly heavy industry nearby) until I did some reading up and started looking for another more likely cause. It was only when the warm weather ended - and so did the problem - that I twigged it.
It was same time every night give or take five minutes.
The turntable oiling session continues with some Audio origami Oil. I don't think I have had this before. I have a feeling I used some Origin Live Oil previously. As you can see the Audio Origami Oil is a menacing green potion. I am just letting the platter spin for a few thousand revolutions before I have a listen. interestingly the platter spins freely for a very long time compared to the 5W-30 synthetic engine oil. Obviously viscosity and friction lower but does this sound better...?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...b0631e46_k.jpg2605DA3E-4731-4E2F-AB9F-D716561679BC by J , on Flickr
:popcorn:
I have had a fair few hours and run through a wide range of vinyl with the Audio Origami oil in situ. So how did this green elixir perform in the VPI bearing? Well before I reveal my listening experience I was just thinking about turntable bearings and motors, belt driven turntables, idlers and direct drive and I know from experience and reading countless articles the whole point of the turntable bearing apart from its functionality is to try and remove any sonic trace that it may impart to the turntable.
Direct Drive turntables have gone to many lengths to reduce cogging or any transfer of noise from the drive systems into the bearing. Belt driven turntables obviously don’t have this issue as their whole design removes any motor interference from the drive / bearing. Idlers are in my opinion a half way house but obviously great attention and care is needed to stop any interference of the system getting into the platter.
The whole beauty of belt driven turntables is the lack of inherent noise from the motor/drive but they still do need to have a very quiet bearing and therefore the better machined and designed the bearing the less noise transferred to the platter.
Because noise can be such an issue I can see why turntable manufacturers have gone to great lengths to try and mitigate bearing noise. But it seems incredible to me that noise and vibration can be further reduced with the type of oil used on the bearing.
For some time now I have been considering oils and their potential especially as there are manufacturers now concentrating on all aspects of an oils performance and not simply lubrication. I have found this recently with a company called Park Tool who manufacture a range of lubricants for bikes and they have proven better oils can indeed reduce friction and therefore result in less effort being used to ride. This adds up over a long ride in the amount of watts/energy needed to be expended.
Going back to the Audio Origami oil I was reminded of this once I lubed up the bearing and simply spun the platter. It took forever to slow down and just kept spinning. I thought this looked promising. Friction was obviously reduced compared to the engine oil but how did this translate into performance and more importantly could I hear a difference?
Well I certainly could hear the difference straight off the bat. Immediately there was a much lower noise floor and blacker background to the sound. Transparency to the recording was significantly better and strangely the dynamic nature to the sound was far more evident. It was if some grunge had been removed from the system and a greater sense of clarity and openness allowed the sound in the room to become that bit more detached from the speakers. On a few track I was not aware I was listening to a mechanically / electrically produced sound wave! The sound seem to just float there in front of me.
Obviously this sounds quite profound but that is what I heard and to tell you the truth I was astonished that the Audio Origami oil allowed my turntable to perform so differently. I do not understand what and how it works but there must be some physics behind it probably to do with reducing the impact of the bearing on the stylus ability to pick up background sound / noise or maybe the fluidity of the ultra smooth much reduced friction just translates into a better performance/ sound?
Whatever the reason I am totally amazed at the transformation and up lift in sound quality.
It sounds like you've hit the spot with the Audio Origami oil, well done James. For somebody as cloth-eared as me, the platter taking longer to come to a stop would be all the 'proof' I'd need that friction has been reduced.
There are such a wide range of oils out there aimed at turntable bearings, you just need to avoid the ones that are derived from snakes!:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigmy Pony
Good post James. I recently bought a second hand Rega Planar 3 and listened for a few days. I wasn't sure if it needed a service so changed the oil in the bearing using gear oil, which seems to be the recommended replacement. On listening I thought I had lost some 'air' from the sound and wasn't entirely happy. I did have some Audio Origami oil left from a previous project so decided to try that instead. TBH I was a bit worried that it might affect the speed stability of the T/T. However, my concern appears to have been unfounded and my experience seems to mirror yours. Yes, I'm a bit surprised that different oils could have such a profound effect on SQ like you, but remember this is hifi after all ;)
It is such a strange hobby this with unexpected avenues to travel. Who would have thought Oil would make such a difference. It never crossed my mind in the past to investigate this "part" of my system set up as I thought it was just something that was needed like a plug and could not make much difference. But as I have found out in the past even plugs can make a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by brian2957
Its the old maxim "Everything Matters"!
Listened to Gerry Mulligan and Johnny Hodges last night, nice bit of mellow saxophone Jazz from the Classic era. The album is on the Verve record label and is very well recorded in the sense that you get the absolute differences between Gerrys sax and Johnnys and all the huge nuances a saxophone has in its sonic character. If you like hearing the full spectrum from the rasp of lips on the mouth piece through to the full honk of a big tenor sax this is the recording for you. Great mellow swing sound but unfortunately the recording is panned from extreme left and right with Gerry in the left speakers and Johnny in the right and all the percussion either left or right. There seems to be a hole in the middle!
Anyhow the reason I write all this is to give a bit of background to the whole sound of the recording and I must say with the new oil lubricating there was once again that floaty transparent feeling to the sound. Nothing missing but total luxurious lush analogue sound. But after a while I started to wonder had the soundstage now become too extreme, too vast certainly in width. I dunno. But it went way beyond the reaches of the room and was a little disconcerting.
Have to have another listen and think about that one. On all other material the soundstage does sound a wee bit enlarged but totally convincing. Maybe its just those weird 60s -70s recording that were panned to the extreme that sound a bit odd and the oil has accentuated this?
I have another recording that I use as a killer system analyser :) It is Ry Cooder - 13 question method. This is up there with my very top Audiophile recordings and I play it only to test the system and evaluate new gear. This track was used ultimately when I was evaluating a Neurochrome 686 against my humble Croft 7 power amp and it told me everything I needed to know about both amps and hence why I never went for a 686 even though it was a very good amp. I felt the Croft sounded more flesh and blood where as the 686 sounded more bone and sinew.
Listening last night with the Audio Origami oil everything I love about this recording was there. Massive dynamic range, totally convincing 3D vocals and a guitar that is recorded so well it is in the room! My partner is sick to death of it but I marvel at this recording every time I play it. The new bearing oil just lowered the noise floor and allowed a spine tingling very vivid performance. Crazy stuff!
I am glad you have got your oil sorted. One less thing to worry about.
Yeah I don't think I need to go any further with the oil as the TT sounds so good now. In fact probably performing better than at any time since I bought it!Quote:
Originally Posted by CageyH