The Celestion kid strikes again.....!

I'd like to make a comment that speaker cabinets don't have to be totally dead and acoustically inert. It's all part of the art of speaker design to balance all things carefully. That's not to say that some sound deadening panels may not make a slight difference (two layers on each wall), but the ABR shouldn't cause too much excess pressure inside the boxes.

By the way re cabinet knuckle rapping - the Tannoy Turnberry's and Canterbury's sound like wardrobes when rapped, yet don't sound boxy at all to my ears.....

Hi Nathan,

Cheers, mate :)

Has the guy in Cork still got them - I thought he'd sold them?

I'll spend a day listening properly to the Celestions and answer your questions thoroughly.

Marco.

Will they replace the 15XR's until you move (if that's still on the cards)?

“I'd like to make a comment that speaker cabinets don't have to be totally dead and acoustically inert. It's all part of the art of speaker design to balance all things carefully.”

Do you think the majority of speaker manufacturers tune cabinets Dave? It would really mean testing each unit after production and I’m not convinced that it’s cost effective. Perhaps that’s why you get good uns and bad uns :scratch:

“That's not to say that some sound deadening panels may not make a slight difference (two layers on each wall), but the ABR shouldn't cause too much excess pressure inside the boxes.”

Slight difference!
Erm, I think it makes a lot of differences. Having recently rebuilt my cabs, which weren’t exactly floppy to start with to my ears the difference is considerable.
If the speaker is designed specifically with cabinet resonance as a feature then obviously you don’t want to interfere with it. I would have some concerns about keeping such a design “in tune” in the manufacturing process and differing environments when in use
bearing in mind the effects of temperature on most wood and fibre based products, knocks and bangs air moisture content etc.

Imo cabinets make a vast difference, open baffles more than demonstrate this.

Apparently, it's not the cabinets, more the air resonances within them - hence the preference with some to have non-parallel panels, curves or in your case, none at all ;)

Tightening up a box can push nasty hi-Q resonances into the midband. my ancient museum-piece Spendors tune these resonances out of the mid and with the port-hole modofied to a tube, the bass problems in these aren't anything like as audible as before.

The thing is, with Ditton 66's, it'll only be a potantial problem if the volume is whacked up too high, and bearing in mind the age of the speakers and the tired old brittle glues I've seen on some old Celestion and Goodmans drivers, the last thing I'd want to do is thrash them, out of respect for them. In the case of Ditton 66's, Marco is already discovering that they're one of a rare breed that doesn't NEED to be thrashed to "get" the musical message. I just hope the show doesn't break them.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

P.S (For those in the know) The serial number on my pair of 66's is 000260 - I presume that this indicates there are pretty early ones?

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In that case you need a serious cap change.

@Dave

Ah, I see.
Tbh, I don’t have much experience of commercial designs, as I’ve been building speakers for that many years now I don’t bother with them.
I would be interested to hear these 66’s though ;)

John:
The '66's are ace speakers, the one i had were one of the last pairs, not as old as Marco's

Marco,

Congrats on a very nice purchase, although £1320 - ouch! I've not heard a pair of 66s but they have been on my radar for a while so I'll be coming and visiting you at Scalford. Mind you I trust you'll be returning the favour and popping down to hear some Leak 2075s in the Cottesmore Room!

As to your speakers, I would strongly urge you to re-cap them, and for god's sake change the internal connection cable, if the picture you posted really is indicative of what they are wired with. The Leak 2075s I owned years ago had similarly thin rubbish connecting the bass unit and this actually completely REMOVED some of the frequency range (amusing story how I found out - I'll relay it one day)

For now, though - enjoy!

I wouldn't mind hearing those ' classic speaker's and with a bit of fettling to come by the sound of it !

I have considered getting it together to come to one of these shows Andre but tbh if they’re anything like they used to be many years ago you cant really get a fair impression of how things sound; too much activity and systems set up in less than ideal circumstances etc etc.
I just end up getting confuzzeled with the noise :doh:

Anyway, from what little I can tell the 66’s look like they may be off to a good start with the basic design. Not too happy with the electrolytics though or the hardwiring. I had those back in the 70’s so they must be on their way out by now.
Still, if they sound okay, that’s what matter eh ;)

Ever seen a pair of Ditton '66' fitted with '66 Series II' 'mids!

John its not only about hearing systems it about meeting like minded people and having good chats and lots of laughter

I’m a shy boy really and I would prolly say the wrong thing and get a days ban :doh:
:lolsign:

But it be fun

Aye & some proper speakers in the AOS room this year to boot :lol:

:sofa:

Ah, Celestion Ditton's..... takes me back to my yoof!

Enjoy :)

Hi Tim

Could you do us a favour please and pop in to the Welcome area, introduce yourself and tell us what system you have and the music you like?

Cheers!

OK will do, sorry to barge in..... I'm a bit impetuous! :o

nice one marco... about 10 years ago a pair of 66's were in the local secondhand shop... i scoffed at them... wish i hadn't.. they where about £60 if i remember correctly

it's suprising how good alot of the old kit sounds,
and old speakers do well
in the last few weeks i been having a good mess with some of my collection, the one that suprised the most so far are a pair of b&w dm1's, not with the emi drivers, a 6" ish bass driver and a couple of tweeters.. really nice for a small speaker i too have a pair of celestion ditton 15 but not the xr version same tweeter as the b& w's... i'll have to give them a try...
they all sound well and quite loud with a just a couple of watts.

i also got a single pye corner speaker a few weeks ago, its very tannoy sounding ;)

cheers
steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SPS

nice one marco... about 10 years ago a pair of 66's were in the local secondhand shop... i scoffed at them... wish i hadn't.. they where about £60 if i remember correctly

it's suprising how good alot of the old kit sounds,
and old speakers do well
in the last few weeks i been having a good mess with some of my collection, the one that suprised the most so far are a pair of b&w dm1's, not with the emi drivers, a 6" ish bass driver and a couple of tweeters.. really nice for a small speaker i too have a pair of celestion ditton 15 but not the xr version same tweeter as the b& w's... i'll have to give them a try...
they all sound well and quite loud with a just a couple of watts.

i also got a single pye corner speaker a few weeks ago, its very tannoy sounding ;)

cheers
steve

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DM1's with a 6" or so round bass unit? That is interesting, any chance of photos? I thought all DM1's had EMI elliptical.

If your still looking at recapping these 66's look up 'celestion ditton 66 needs midrange' on diyaudio all the information's there including crossover schematics etc, i followed these guides to redo some ditton 44's, they now sound even better.

chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spendorman

DM1's with a 6" or so round bass unit? That is interesting, any chance of photos? I thought all DM1's had EMI elliptical.

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a couple of pics attached.. i would guess these are later versions ?
they sound very nice... modern sounding sort of bright and sparkly with the valve amp
i was very pleased with the sound, they have a nice bass balance, not boomy... just right for a small speaker..

Um! new un on me that Steve, have you got a clearer pic of the front please?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SPS

a couple of pics attached.. i would guess these are later versions ?
they sound very nice... modern sounding sort of bright and sparkly with the valve amp
i was very pleased with the sound, they have a nice bass balance, not boomy... just right for a small speaker..

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Hi SPS, thanks for the pics, I strongly suspect that someone has converted these DM1s, using a new front baffle a replacement bass unit. I have thought of doing this myself as one of my DM1's has a faulty elliptical bass unit. I have three pairs of DM1's.

If you ever open up the cabinets, I would be interested to know what the bass units look like and what markings are on them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spendorman

Hi SPS, thanks for the pics, I strongly suspect that someone has converted these DM1s, using a new front baffle a replacement bass unit.

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What i was thinking

Quote:

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If your still looking at recapping these 66's look up 'celestion ditton 66 needs midrange' on diyaudio all the information's there including crossover schematics etc, i followed these guides to redo some ditton 44's, they now sound even better.

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Hi Chris,

That's very interesting. However, you need to be a member of DIY Audio to use the search facility, and I'm not, so could you please post a link here to that discussion?

Cheers! :cool:

Guys, I was rather busy yesterday, so will respond to all the recent replies here A.S.A.P :)

Marco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spendorman

Hi SPS, thanks for the pics, I strongly suspect that someone has converted these DM1s, using a new front baffle a replacement bass unit. I have thought of doing this myself as one of my DM1's has a faulty elliptical bass unit. I have three pairs of DM1's.

If you ever open up the cabinets, I would be interested to know what the bass units look like and what markings are on them.

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you clever fella...

front off... they have been re done...
my camera is crap...
the bass driver says on it 17-fgwb made 3.81 made in norway

tweeter i would guess is celestion... T1295

the small tweeter just says tu (could be vu) 29a

the pictures show the rest... thanks for the info...

i have a few emi's spare? not sure if they fit the dm1

where the two tweeters original and the just the bas verion of the emi, i would also guess its not the 13x8 ones i have.

cheers
steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SPS

you clever fella...

front off... they have been re done...
my camera is crap...
the bass driver says on it 17-fgwb made 3.81 made in norway

tweeter i would guess is celestion... T1295

the small tweeter just says tu (could be vu) 29a

the pictures show the rest... thanks for the info...

i have a few emi's spare? not sure if they fit the dm1

where the two tweeters original and the just the bas verion of the emi, i would also guess its not the 13x8 ones i have.

cheers
steve

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Your tweeter's and crossover look original, tweeters: Celestion HF1300 and Coles 4001G, exactly the same as in DM4, DM2, Spendor BC1 etc. Your crossover is the later one as it has the mod to reduce slightly the output of the 1300 tweeter.

The original DM1 bass units were EMI 10"x 6" with a special fibreglass laminated cone, similar in construction to the 13"x8"

Your bass units may be VIFA / Seas, usually good units

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

please post a link here to that discussion?

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http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...mid-range.html

Heres the link, i recommend that you join i think its free, just so you can follow the diagrams, theres also recomendations for capacitors/resistors to use.

chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spendorman

Your bass units may be VIFA / Seas, usually good units

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It's a SEAS unit i can tell by the model number sticker on the back on the magnet..6.5'' paper cone.

thanks alex and andre... thats good info thanks...
i'm more into older kit, most of my drivers are pre 1970's
and my best valves are all pre war

so have not really much to go on except a few hi fi year books when it come to later 70's and eighties kit..

cheers ...
sorry all for the slight off topic drift..

Still busy listening, chaps.... I've been positioning the Celestions in the room to get best results, so will report later regarding what I'm hearing with them, now I've got a pretty good handle on what they're capable of.

I'm certainly very impressed and have been doing direct comparisons between them and the Lockwoods - it's been an interesting battle...! :eyebrows:

Anyway, here are some piccies for your delectation, until I've finished my scribbles.....

No1 Ditton 66:


http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/562/img0324sc.jpg


No2 Ditton 66:


http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/9921/img0325rq.jpg


A Lockwood sandwich!! :eek: .........


http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/6042/img0326fp.jpg


The Koss 'n' Ditton show:


http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/9875/img0345yn.jpg


http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/176/img0344rl.jpg


Back later! :cool:

Marco.

Funky finish on the speakers Marco.

Hi Ali,

Cheers, dude. It's probably more an effect of the flash, TBH, as it tends to bleach out the natural colour of things. However, I find the walnut finish rather more interesting and warmer than teak.

The patina on the Celestions is certainly very nice, but of course that only comes with age :)

Marco.

Nice
Can't you open the door shove the Tannoy's in & forget about em ;)

I'll give them a good home!

Quote:

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Nice
Can't you open the door shove the Tannoy's in & forget about em

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Lol! But that would mean my mistress couldn't get out of the dungeon.... :eyebrows:

They both have their strengths, dude.

The Lockwoods, as you would expect, have more weight and scale (by that, I don't really mean bass, but rather presence and size of sound), and an arguably sweeter top-end, but that could be due to the electrolytic caps in the crossovers of the Celestions. Some nice polyprops will probably cure the ever so slight hard edge in the treble.

Compared with 95% of speakers on the market, the Celestions have all the weight and scale you could ever want, but the Lockwoods are truly exceptional in this area, and their 15" drivers and huge cabinets can really shift air and create earthquake bass with massive slam and gravitas, whilst still remaining tight and tuneful. The Celestions are lighter in the bass, but make up for the Lockwoods sheer heft with their very impressive speed and 'attack'.

Being true monitor designs, both are exceptionally musical sounding, coherent, accurate, transparent and hugely revealing of programme material, giving effortless microscopic insight into all recordings, but never straying into harshness, meaning that one can indulge in long listening sessions and experience no fatigue whatsoever, either with CD or vinyl, providing they are fed by a top-notch system. The Studio 66's in particular have huge resolving power, are ruthlessly revealing, although always unfailingly musical.

They are also not tonally cold in the way of some monitor designs, as the Celestions possess an organic warmth, tunefulness and texture, which keeps their presentation from ever sounding 'austere'.

They also have the edge over the Lockwoods in terms of high frequency extension and midrange alacrity (probably due to the superlative qualities of the MD500/HF2000 units - particularly the 'supertweeter effect' of the latter) which combine to create a top end that seemingly extends into infinity, giving all genres of music oodles of crystalline clarity and sparkle, and midrange detail that beguiles and enchants in a way I've never heard before, making female vocals in particular positively drip with emotion.

Their overall effect in that area, quite frankly, is just simply STUNNING.....

These Celestions really know how to portray the musical message! If there's even more to come with a crossover upgrade, then it beggars belief what these speakers are truly capable of :eek:

I may have paid £1320 for them, but quite simply this sort of performance isn't available today for under £4k (minimum), which makes them a hi-end bargain, and their beautiful vintage looks simply add further to their appeal and the pride of ownership.

More thoughts later - I'm off for another listen!

Marco.

Very nice (I love walnut, hence why our living room floor will be covered in the American Black variety by tomorrow.) That pair of old wardrobes in between the 66's will definitely be playing havoc with the imaging though - Andre's rights, shove them through the little white door and let the demons play with them for a while! ;)

Look forward to hearing them next month. :)

Hi Alex,

Yes you're right about the imaging, but I'm making allowances for that temporarily due to lack of space! :eyebrows:

However, the musical abilities of the Celestions are so exceptional that I'm able to almost disregard the sonic shortcomings of their current positional arrangement :cool:

Marco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alex_UK

Very nice (I love walnut, hence why our living room floor will be covered in the American Black variety by tomorrow.) That pair of old wardrobes in between the 66's will definitely be playing havoc with the imaging though - André's right, shove them through the little white door and let the demons play with them for a while! ;)

Look forward to hearing them next month. :)

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Spare a thought for Tabatha (the gymnomastic melophage record cleaner) and the Gimp! :eyebrows:

LOL!

Hi Dave,

Quote:

---

I'd like to make a comment that speaker cabinets don't have to be totally dead and acoustically inert. It's all part of the art of speaker design to balance all things carefully. That's not to say that some sound deadening panels may not make a slight difference (two layers on each wall), but the ABR shouldn't cause too much excess pressure inside the boxes.

By the way re cabinet knuckle rapping - the Tannoy Turnberry's and Canterbury's sound like wardrobes when rapped, yet don't sound boxy at all to my ears.....

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Spot on, dude - as they say, there are many ways to skin a cat!

Look at the 'thin-wall', 'lossy' approach of companies like Harbeth... Totally dead and acoustically inert they are not, yet their speakers sound supremely musical, and notably (measurably) very accurate.

The high-mass enclosure approach has its undoubted merits, but it is not the only way to musical nirvana.

The fact is, the Celestions sound simply stunning in spite of their "cack cabinets", so the manufacturer appears to have got something most definitely very right ;)

Quote:

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Will they replace the 15XR's until you move (if that's still on the cards)?

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Nope. The 15XRs are staying put in the lounge.

What I think I'll do is swap between the 66's and the Lockwoods, as the mood takes me, as I value their unique traits and adore how they both present music. Fortunately, the Lockwoods have handles and are on castors, so they're easily moved from the listening room to the bedroom (which are next door to each other, only a matter of a few feet apart) and vice versa. I think that's the way I'll do it, and keep the Celestions mainly in situ.

Yup, Wynn Hall is still on the cards, so all three sets of speakers will find a good home somewhere. I'll likely build three different systems in different rooms to accommodate them (should we buy the property) - now that will be fun! :cool:

Marco.

Marco:
Do you fancy trying a pair of '66' series 2, or even '662' at some point?

Why not, dude? I seem to like the vintage Celestion sound :)

Marco.

Well they are later speakers, series II had the ABR unit around the back..

Hi Adam,

Quote:

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Congrats on a very nice purchase, although £1320 - ouch!

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Lol, I know! :eyebrows:

Thing is, they sound fantastic to my ears with performance far in excess of the price I paid for them, and they also look fab - so for me it was a win-win :)

Quote:

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I've not heard a pair of 66s but they have been on my radar for a while so I'll be coming and visiting you at Scalford.

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I think you'll love them - they are just so goddamn insightful and musically addictive.

Quote:

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Mind you I trust you'll be returning the favour and popping down to hear some Leak 2075s in the Cottesmore Room!

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Oh, I'll be there, matey. Will I bump into the Sondex? ;)

Quote:

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As to your speakers, I would strongly urge you to re-cap them, and for god's sake change the internal connection cable, if the picture you posted really is indicative of what they are wired with.

For now, though - enjoy!

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Cheers, and don't worry, I am.

Having listened to them now quite carefully over a reasonable period of time, I think that I'll upgrade the caps in the HF and mid sections, as I think some subtle improvements could be made there, and then possibly rewire the crossovers with the same VDH CS-14 Hybrid cable as I used in the Monitor Golds inside the Lockwoods (shown below), but the rest will likely be left well alone, as honestly, there isn't a lot wrong with how they sound now.

Of course, I also have to check that the crossovers inside my own speakers are the same as the ones in the picture I posted earlier. Who knows - someone may have been in there already!

On the subject of crossovers, for those interested, here's what the modified ones look like inside my Lockwoods:


http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/188/img0258w.jpg


Back of a 15" Monitor Gold (hard-wired in position, instead of using the original multi-pin plug and 'umbilical cord'):


http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/7200/img0261gs.jpg


Marco.

Quote:

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Well they are later speakers, series II had the ABR unit around the back..

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Sounds interesting - wonder what impact that would have? :)

Marco.

Yum Yum mate those Duelund Resistors on those X Overs are well expensive but nice..

Hi Steve,

Quote:

---

nice one marco... about 10 years ago a pair of 66's were in the local secondhand shop... i scoffed at them... wish i hadn't.. they where about £60 if i remember correctly

it's suprising how good alot of the old kit sounds,
and old speakers do well

---

Indeed. I'm coming to the conclusion that there are only a handful of modern speakers I like or could live with, as more often than not the voicing just isn't my cup of cocoa.

The Celestions achieve the difficult balancing act of sounding both 'crisp and insightful', yet wonderfully rich and organic, too, with appropriate material. Their genuine monitor status ensures that they are accurate and uncoloured, but their voicing and driver compliment also ensures they are never sterile sounding.

Most modern loudspeakers do the 'hi-fi thing' very well, although many are rather 'in yer face', and struggle to convey emotion in recordings or have the effortless musicality of the Celestions. I'm so pleased with them!! :)

Marco.

Quote:

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Yum Yum mate those Duelund Resistors on those X Overs are well expensive but nice..

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Ah, you recognised my little 'cigarillos' :eyebrows:

Yup, they defo do the bizzo. Those crossovers are the reason why the Lockwoods sound so open and dynamic and have plenty of top-end sparkle.

The original crossovers make the drivers sound positively 'sat on' in comparison!

Marco.