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You can get tighter wound windings by hand winding using a machine Marco. As each turn or two is added they can be gently knocked together so as to leave no gaps & thus get rid of one source of transformer noise. If the windings can't move they can't rattle or buzz ;)
Hi Ian,Quote:
Originally Posted by UV101
Yes your suggestion is a possible solution, allbeit a somewhat in-elegant one for a HiFi application. What do you have against current inrush suppressors?? Another better option would be to use solid state AC switches, and these are no longer expensive animals.
Hi Mark,
Cool, cheers - I get that :)Quote:
You can get tighter wound windings by hand winding using a machine Marco. As each turn or two is added they can be gently knocked together so as to leave no gaps & thus get rid of one source of transformer noise. If the windings can't move they can't rattle or buzz
Aside from reduced noise in the listening environment, I was wondering how the advantages of hand-winding with transformers would impact on audio performance, and in what way? :cool:
I'm thinking here mainly of output transformers (these presumanbly shouldn't buzz as there is no voltage going through them, no?), rather than mains transformers.
Marco.
I'm not sure it would with regards to a power supply transformer other than to prevent it from intruding on the listening experience due to noise. On the other hand a transformer carrying audio such as a valve output transformer needs to be wound as precisely as possible to minimise leakage inductance. Interwinding capacitance may play a part as well, but i don't know a lot about this side of things, never looked into it ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Churz, dude. That sounds as good a reason as any why hand-wound output transformers on a valve amp would offer better performance than those made by a machine, but then I suppose it depends on who is doing the winding!Quote:
On the other hand a transformer carrying audio such as a valve output transformer needs to be wound as precisely as possible to minimise leakage inductance.
I'll be interested to see what Paul (and perhaps Nick G or Leo?) thinks on this matter :)
Marco.
So Paul.............
Will you be selling your transformers seperately? :rolleyes:
Hi Marco,
Mark is right about the mechanical issues with loose windings. There is also an electrical problem with them too. The vibrating loose windings induce varying electrical interference signals, in sympathy with the mechanical vibrations, into adjacent moving wires due to mutual coupling. Think of it as the electrical analogy of mechanical vibrations, then it is easy to see how important it is to minimise the problem. The target is to get rid of noise and interference rather than allow the power supply to generate it’s own interference because something has not been manufactured to the required quality level.
Mike,
I believe it can be tricky to switch transformers on consistently without risking core saturation using solid-state AC switches (Inteligent Triacs) due to the fact that the voltage and current waveforms can be out of phase at the moment of energising the primary. Because of this, switching on at the zero voltage point on the mains waveform is not a good thing. It will create interference and cause current surges up to 40 times the steady state condition with core saturation problems. I am not up with current technology in the field of solid-state AC switches, and things may be different now with new knowledge improving control systems, but it is worth checking this out because I believe transformer core saturation is something that should be avoided as it stops the transformer behaving properly.
Ian,
I do sell the transformers separately for £100 plus insured carriage and packing of £15 in the UK.
Regards
Paul
What could I expect to hear using a better transformer as opposed to a larger VA std toroid configured as I suggested previous?
I ask purely because I am looking to be subjective. As I stated previously, I plan to mod further. At this point I could put the money toward a bearing upgrade or even towards another arm. I plan to machine a couple of hardwood bodies to try with the Denon and it will definitely end up with the expert stylus company who sorted another 103 for me about 20 years ago (My old boss at Ashtead TV is a friend Wyndham - I remember seeing his electrostats and some other incredible kit at his house too!) Sadly I managed to destroy that cart he sorted for me during a "cleaning incident" :steam:
I guess what i am saying is, at this moment in time, the PSU as it stands is clearly significantly better than is was. I will run 2 or 3 regs in the TT within the next few weeks, but where should I look to spend £ next?
Quote:- but where should I look to spend £ next? __________________
Can the Achromat be bettered?
My own Technics journey does not involve a new bearing or platter, I have put an Oyaide mat and stabilizer on the stock platter and a new PSU which I just fitted tonight and now it's sounding as if it cannot really sound any better!
I took the blue horizon mat off and funnily with my new PSU it sounds better without it, the RB300 and Nagoaka MP150 seem well suited to each other.
I know its expensive but the Oyaide mat is quite exceptional on the stock platter.
Tomorrow I am going to get some oak cone feet made to try instead of or as well as the Isonoe feet.
Ian,
You would be blessed with no mechanical noise and, from past experience with a variety of audio equipment, the effect of removing a layer of electrical interference caused by winding rattle results in a more stable musical presentation. Also removing core saturation effects allows the music to breathe dynamically in other audio electronics, and I see no reason why this should not be the case with the SL1200 control circuitry.
One thing I have found with transformers is that you get what you pay for. For example, earlier this year I removed a set of these high performance transformers from my system power amplifiers to help a trade customer meet a show deadline with a power supply for the Virtue Audio 2 power amplifier. The temporary replacements were some of the “off the shelf” range generally available for a quarter of the price. The wife and sprog immediately asked what I had done to the sound system as it sounded edgy and aggressive particularly on complex dynamic material. The mechanical noise was very apparent particularly during quiet musical passages. Hell, it even annoyed me with no music playing. We all found it quite annoying to listen to music with these low cost transformers in place and even a month of burn-in failed to alleviate the problem. When the replacement high performance transformers I had ordered arrived, I installed them, and the sound system was back to the performance we had missed so much. The low cost transformers are now used as door stops, which is a reasonable application for them. For those interested in boating and yachting they would also make good boat anchors.
However I cannot tell you how much bang for your buck you will get using the high performance transformer compared to the other upgrades you are considering, as I haven’t tried a bearing or arm upgrade yet. The transformer is relatively inexpensive compared to the other upgrades you are considering if cash flow is tight.
Regards
Paul
Marco,Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
In the past era of valve amplifiers, when there was nothing else! the better quality transfomers, both Mains and Output were often sealed and vacuum impregnated with oil or resin. This provides excellent insulation properties against short circuit windings and greatly improves the overall performance.
In fact as I write this I have on my desk a quality 7.5H choke made by Parmeko in the UK (do they still exist??) which is oil filled and sealed in a pressed steel package with ceramic terminal insulators! All this for a common inductance!!
The problem today is that many of the so called high quality Mains and output Tranny’s are not offered in vacuum oil filled versions simply because of the cost. This is why IMO people are having problems with output tranny’s that are burning out due to the higher voltages that are being use on the output valve anodes these days.
Hi Paul,Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hynes
I was was not proposing to use a solid-state AC switch, as the primary switch, rather as the bipass switch across the current suppressor. This was in answer to Ian's suggestion of using a relay across the supressor because he did not like the idea of having a device in series with the primary.
But now you come to mention it, I believe there are now 'soft start switches' which act like the soft start function in AC inverter motor controls.
Ian,
I believe you would be better off buying one of Pauls super duper transformers. I may be tempted myself!!
believe me I'm tempted!!!
Having just shelled out for the TT and then immediately spent another £300 ish on the cartridge, stabiliser so I could "nude" it, mat, shell and PSU parts (so far!), I'm trying to work out where would be best to spend next!
I'm in total agreement with the points made by Paul, and of course I fully agree with the theory regarding transformer performance, however, I think for me personally at the moment the £ could be spent elsewhere with bigger gains.
Its definately on the list of will do's
If money were no object, I'd be ordering platter, bearings, PSU etc today! :lolsign:
Hi Mike,
Thanks for that - most interesting....Quote:
Marco,
In the past era of valve amplifiers, when there was nothing else! the better quality transfomers, both Mains and Output were often sealed and vacuum impregnated with oil or resin. This provides excellent insulation properties against short circuit windings and greatly improves the overall performance.
In fact as I write this I have on my desk a quality 7.5H choke made by Parmeko in the UK (do they still exist??) which is oil filled and sealed in a pressed steel package with ceramic terminal insulators! All this for a common inductance!!
The problem today is that many of the so called high quality Mains and output Tranny’s are not offered in vacuum oil filled versions simply because of the cost. This is why IMO people are having problems with output tranny’s that are burning out due to the higher voltages that are being use on the output valve anodes these days.
I believe that the output transformers on my valve amp are finished in that way :)Quote:
the better quality transfomers, both Mains and Output were often sealed and vacuum impregnated with oil or resin...
Sadly, quality is lacking in so many areas of audio equipment these days (compared to how things used to be), not just with transformers...
Marco.
Paul, another question. I've been reading through the SR5 thread (awesome! I really like the idea of the downward fireing LED!) and seen the pictures of the internals. Whats the capacitance of the smoothers? They look like the larger FC's near the rectifiers. I had always been lead to believe that larger smoothers were a good thing which is why I got 2 x 10,000uF in my supply (although clearly in underestimated the TX requirements! :doh::lolsign:) Thanks:cool:
Does anyone know if you can use Paul Hynes regulators that are mentioned above (or those used in the PS5) in conjunction with a Timestep PSU for an improvement over the stock Timestep?Quote:
Originally Posted by leo
Any regulator needs input voltage headroom to provide a given stable output, so the answer to that question is 'no', unless the Timestep PSU's output voltage can be adjusted upwards. Paul Hynes will no doubt specify the exact amount of that voltage headroom requirement.
Hi Mike,
Shuggie is correct about the regulator dropout voltage. The DC input version of the PR3 has a dropout voltage of around 5 volts.
The standard Timestep power supply uses a mains transformer with 2 x 9 vac secondaries in series to give 18 vdc which, when rectified would give just over 25 vdc. The regulation factor of the mains transformer would add to this but to allow for the charging ripple waveform super-imposed on the main energy storage capacitor steady state dc voltage, and the fact that the mains voltage can vary, often falling during heavy loading during peak times of the day, The PR3 cannot just be substituted for the LM317 used in the Timestep supply. The Transformer would have to be changed for one with 12 vac secondaries, with preferably a higher VA rating, subject to space limitations within the case.
The other factor to consider is that the PR3DC module would not fit in the Timestep case without removing the Timestep PCB, which has the rectification and energy storage on board. In these circumstances you would need the AC input version of the PR3, which will not fit into the Timestep case anyway. You would be better off getting a higher quality transformer and using a PR3AC input module built into another, larger case, to give you a good upgrade in sound quality.
Regards
Paul
I might also add that those users of the KAB PS should be OK as this unit outputs over 30 volts, which is designed to be inserted across the input rectifier. Although in my judgement this is not the ideal location to connect the voltage (it should be after the rectifier bridge) The output of 30V or more should provide a 'stiff' enough source for the majority of regulator modules.
Hi Folks,
Well I finally found some time to finish fitting the internal regulator modules for the SL1200/SL1210 motor board. It was worth the effort but I am not going to say what the results are as MartinT will be fitting the regulators to his deck in the near future and I feel that it would be better to leave Martin to describe the resulting changes this upgrade makes to the musical presentation especially as, currently, his deck has the Mike New upgrades and the a much better Arm and cartridge than me.
Martin has kindly agreed to describe the upgrade from the point of view of a DIY enthusiast and post pictures of his progress. No doubt there will be a few PMs between us while the upgrade information is transferred. At the end of this we will hopefully have a well-documented path for DIY enthusiasts to follow.
For those who are interested in the internal regulator upgrades I have posted a photo on Photobucket and the link is :-
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/w.../SR1MS3034.jpg
Regards
Paul
I seem to remember Leo doing similar but with twin regulators, looks like you now have a dedicated unit to do the job of both Paul ;)
Nice work :)
Looks great Paul! is that the new series regs? a nice tidy fit.
Sure looks neat! I fully expect it'll sound at least as good as it looks.
The regulators look superb, as with all of Paul's modules. I have them safely in my hands and am awaiting some detailed PCB instructions before making a start.
Using a top quality external psu like the SR3/5 is great mod worth the effort which to my ears wasn't subtle, I thought the added separate internal regs was the icing on the cake, it was enough to not want to go back to the stock internal version. Looks like this latest version takes things even further.
I bet going from a totally stock unit to external psu plus internal regs would be quite an ear opener :eyebrows:
Look forward to see how you get on with these Martin
omg omg omg (cue panic attack) :eek:, I was just thinking about these latest mods, do you think these will be available before Xmas. Whats the cost?? This could be a neat xmas pressie to ones self! :eyebrows: :cool::cool:
Hi Mark,
Leo said that fitting the two PR3 regulators securely in the transformer well was a bit of a fiddle so I designed a new board called TDR21, with two PR3 regulators on board, to fit the pitch of the transformer mounting pillars. The transformer mounting screws are then recycled to mount the new board securely.
Hi Leo,
The two mini regs consist of one series reg and one shunt reg. They do add some more to the performance. I have wired the regs in with fine silver wire too.
Hi Clive,
I should have sent this to Leo for wiring. He is much neater than me. Now I have got this out of the way I can get on with the phono stage. I will let you know when it is on the way.
Hi Martin,
It’s a little late to get the info organised and sent tonight and I need to crash soon. I will make a start on it tomorrow.
Hi Andrew,
Don’t Panic. Now I have boards for these regs I can make them to order. They are not going to break the bank. I will post some price info in the trade section tomorrow when I get a break.
Regards
Paul
Here are my Paul Hynes internal regulator upgrades on an already heavily modified SL-1210. This phase 1 involved simply mounting the TDR-21 (twin PR3) regulator board inside the deck, setting one reg to exactly 21V and driving the entire PCB from the one supply. My external SR5-21 became an SR5-27 by adjusting it for 27V output. I went for phase 1 to start with because I wanted to evaluate just a single internal regulator compared with phase 2 which involves a further three regulators (2 x 9.4V & 5V), several components to remove and PCB tracks to cut.
Opening up the deck and preparing to mount the TDR-21 into the transformer well at top left. Beware those die cast posts! I used a self-tapper just a little too large and broke it inside the post :steam: I then attempted to drill it out and broke the drill bit in there :steam: :steam: Several hours later and I had the situation under control. I also spent some time removing the base and replacing the expired bulb inside the pop-up post with a white LED. This was more fiddly than I expected.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8399/8...83898d6f_b.jpg
Showing the TDR-21 wired in and running, generating 21V from the incoming 27V from the already adjusted SR5. Left meter showing SR5-27 output and right meter showing TDR21 motor drive (nearest reg) output. I've also set the other reg to 21V ready for phase 2. There is some settling time with all the Paul Hynes regs so the meters are showing a little drift, which I have now brought back in.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8540/8...f7737c46_b.jpg
Phase 1 fully wired and tested.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8099/8...c31c182d_b.jpg
That's it for now. There's not enough time to reinstall the arm and get eveything balanced up. I have a two-hour drive tomorrow morning so first impressions and phase 2 coming later in the week :)
I can't help thinking all that gubbins would be better off in a box away from the motor, Martin - is that do-able?
It goes against the design principle of having the regulators as close to the active circuitry as possible, Chris. This keeps voltage drop to a minimum and 'stiffens' the voltage rails. The real villain of the piece, the transformer, is long gone and inside the SR5, where it belongs.
Ah, OK - fair enough then!
You could use a reg with Kelvin sense then it wouldn't matter where they were as wire is compensated for in the reg itself.
Indeed, this is exactly what was employed on various SMPS that I used to mess about with in my previous job ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by sq225917
Looking forwards to seeing how it all pans out Martin :)
Well done cant wait for the report.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
So, I've had time to listen to Phase 1 (two-stage, SR5-27 followed by TDR-21) and I'm rather surprised as I didn't really expect this upgrade to provide any more performance over the SR5-21 alone.
In fact, there is a further refinement across the board but particularly in the midrange area and the level of the acoustic of the recording versus the surroundings, or the vividness of the presentation if you prefer. Leo summed it up rather well in post #1 as "I did notice a further layer of background muck (best way to describe it) removed".
Next stage will involve cutting the 21V PCB track and using both sides of the TDR-21 regulator.
Interesting test Martin, I didn't realise you were going to try it both ways. I'd expect the seperated regulators to make the more significant difference :)
Hi Martin,
Disregarding your Power Plant, which will be quieter than direct mains connection, you have doubled the supply line rejection of mains born interference and rectification artefacts of your composite Technics power supply, which would drop the background noise level being fed to the control and motor drive circuitry. This would clean up the low-level information presentation.
The rest of the regulator mods take this a little further although the law of diminishing returns will apply to a degree with this noise reduction, as other circuit noise sources will start to dominate. The additional individual stage regulators will show a more pronounced effect on the reduction of power supply inter-modulation around the circuit power supply distribution on the motor board between the various control circuit stages and the motor drive section. This inter-modulation clutter can be considered as a noise source. Reducing this will also clean up the presentation in quite interesting ways.
Regards
Paul
I have now completed phase 2 - separate 21V power supplies to the motor control and motor drive circuitry.
Showing the cut PCB track to separate the motor control (left side) from the motor drive (right side) electronics. I used a test meter to confirm that the power rails were isolated from each other. A new power wire (seen at bottom) feeds 21V to the leg of C110 for motor drive.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8264/8...d3d2176a_b.jpg
Reassembled into the deck. The TDR-21 dual regulator pinout is (from the rear) 1. +27V in, 2. disused, 3. disused, 4. +21V out to Motor Control, 5. 0V to chassis earth, 6. +21V to Motor Drive.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8111/8...5feef587_b.jpg
Listening to it, I am hearing interesting things. There is not much change to foreground instruments, but material in the background, deep back into the stage, is now more finely resolved. Tiny cues and things happening in the mix are now clear, what was a 'something' now becomes detectable as a cymbal, bell or other persussive sound. Overall background noise is very well suppressed and that sense of the music coming from a black background is now more pronounced.
Furthermore, and this is obvious even from another room, the Technics' metronomic pitch accuracy and timing gradually impresses on the mind as better than ever.
This is excellent, and confirms what Leo and Paul have discovered, which is that two-stage regulation and division of the noisy motor drive from the sensitive motor control is well worth implementing. The TDR-21 custom dual regulator module is a winner, all driven from the excellent SR5-27 outboard PSU. If you stop at this point, you will already have one hell of a good sounding deck.
I'm going to give it a couple of weeks now, to let everything bed in and to listen to a lot more music. Phase 3 will come later :)
Respect, and very interesting stuff, Martin! I look forward to reading more of your thoughts on these mods, in due course :)
Marco.
Hi Martin and also Paul,
Looking at the image of Martin’s PCB indicating where the track should be cut, alerts me to a possible improvement. Looking at where Martin has marked a line to separate the 21V supply into two separate supplies.
You will notice that there is another track on the RHS of the cut, which goes up to the motor coil assembly. This track supplies the common 21V to the three pairs of position-detect coils, which are stimulated by the ‘star wheel’ on the underside of the platter.
I believe that for the ultimate isolation from the drive motor, these coils should also be fed from the second 21V supply.
This can be achieved by cutting the track at an angle where the DR is in the word ‘DRIVE’ as shown in Martin’s image of the PCB.
This then leaves these coils to be supplied by the second 21V supply.
I've been looking at it and the circuit diagram, Mike. Interesting, however it seems to me that those sense coils are leading into the motor drive chip IC101. I'm not sure how that IC would behave with two different power supplies to different parts of it (albeit through one of the coils - P1)?
Hi Martin,
This could be possible, but if you look at the 'Block Diagram' of the system the coil inputs really are just another set of circuits within an IC with a common supply voltage which powers the various internal active components as well as being the current source for the motor coils.
I suppose my idea could be accademic, since the active components of the position dectect coils and the oscillator and comparators are powered by the 21v motor source.
I was thinking that common mode noise could be worse if the power rail for the coils was different from the power rail for the IC electronics. Paul will no doubt answer this when he takes a look.
:popcorn: Lovin these posts! I honestly cant wait for 2012 to get started, mainly so things can get back to normal and then the 1210 can have its next phase of updates! ;)
I'm sitting comfortably waiting for the results... even though most of this electronics malarkey is going straight over the top:scratch:
Mike and Martin,
At this point I could not say what the effect of separating the coil supply from the AN6675 supply would be, as I have not tried it. With systems like this, where details of the chip circuitry are not generally available, it is a difficult prediction to make from just a block diagram (which incidentally has errors on it). Some experimentation will be required to verify the results. I will look into it further once I have my current projects out of the way. It is not going to make any difference to the current internal regulator upgrades, as it would be an easy retrofit to add another regulator.
Regards
Paul
Bravo Martin!
I've fallen behind ;)
Now I need to order the TDR-21 custom dual regulator module from Paul.
I assume Paul provides info on what resistor must change on the SR5-21 to convert it to 27V output?
Cheers
Pete
It's straightforward, Pete. Just open up the SR5 front panel (the end with the LED) and you will see an adjustable pot with a small screw on the PCB. Using a digital voltmeter, turn it until you get 27V.
With your system resolution, I think you'll find the mod very worthwhile.
Indeed! But according to Paul I have to check my regulator because it may have older parts not rated high enough for the 27v output. Time to crack open the case on my DIY SR5.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
Isn't this fun? :eyebrows: