A battle of D/Ds: Heavily-modified SL-1210 vs. Kenwood L-07D and Nakamichi TX-1000.

Hi Guy,

I'm not sure what impedance the A23 shows the SPU (someone would need to measure it), but it certainly gives more output than using the A23 for the 103 does with the SPU, but it's the way it voices music reproduced that's just utterly stunning!!

Keith Aschenbrenner really does have a great ear for this kind of stuff.....

There's a bounce and 'impetus' to the way the SPU now handles rhythms, underpinned by serious visceral heft and a lovely top-end clarity, which drives music along with a rather infectious flow, simply putting a big smile on your face. Make no mistake, the SPU/A23 (SPU) maxes out the fun-factor in music.

Jeez, this is an infectious listen! :eek:

You really must get one for your 12" Jelco, as trust me, with the right SUT you'd L O V E it, mate!

Marco.

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Originally Posted by pure sound

It'd be interesting to know what impedance their SPU transformer presents to the cartridge. iirc their 103 tranny gave a step up of about 1:22 so was showing the cartridge 100 ohms when loaded by a 47Kohm mm stage.

Does this new transformer give more output with the SPU? I'd expect it to be showing a lower impedance and therefore giving a higher step up ratio.

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Guy, you market a step-up tranny don't you? I appreciate you not wanting to blow your own trumpet, but I think it's important for this one to be represented as well. How does it compare with the A23 for example and how much better than, say, my old AT630?

Dave,

I've done a direct comparison with the A23 (103) and the T10 in my system, using the 103SA, as Guy kindly loaned me a T10 for a while.

I'll describe my thoughts after I've finished my dinner :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Stratmangler

http://i960.photobucket.com/albums/a...newspaper2.jpg

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Post of the year :youtheman:

Regards D S D L

Shut it, daftee, and go and write your (LONG overdue) tuner review!! :ner:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Dave,

I've done a direct comparison with the A23 (103) and the T10 in my system, using the 103SA, as Guy kindly loaned me a T10 for a while.

I'll describe my thoughts after I've finished my dinner :)

Marco.

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:offtopic: Thread drift

Finish your write up first then start a new thread for this one ;)


Regards D S D L

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Originally Posted by Marco

Shut it, daftee, and go and write your (LONG overdue) tuner review!! :ner:

Marco.

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Slightly different my good man. You have done your listening and I mostly have not + I have 20 + tuners to do you just had three TTs.

"Go finish your write up".....says he shaking his head as he walks away sighing.


Regards D S D L

I also heard the T10 in comparison to the A23 (103 version/100 ohm) at Marco's place. I preferred it although I think Marco preferred the A23's presentation. They were both good with the 103SA although personally I felt the A23 sounded slightly grainy in comparison.

The T10 has the provision to show 38 or 150 ohms to the cartridge. (these values can be altered using shunt resistors across the outputs of the transformer if fine tuning is thought to be required). Of course such adjustment can be made to any transformers.

The 38 ohm setting seems to work very well with the SPU based on brief experience I've had with the combination at a friend's place but also in the view of a couple of SPU using customers.

I don't feel any immediate urge to get an SPU again. I did have one back in about 1991 and enjoyed it immensely. I still like them when I hear them now regardless of (perhaps because of) the fruity character they undoubtedly add. However, at the moment I'm enjoying the Technics EPS310 which probably retrieves more from the record and yet still presents it in a charming way. This was an exceptional cartridge which many people will not have heard especially not in a conventional pivoted arm.

Might be good to share a bit more about the Technics EPS310 I have not heard the cartridge and sounds like it might be another bargin

Hi Guy,

Yes, I remember when we did the comparison. Initially, I actually preferred (or rather I could hear something I liked about the T10), hence why I asked to borrow it from you, but found with extended listening that the A23 was voiced more to suit the 103, perhaps because of how both SUTs loaded the cartridge.

I never did play around with loading on the T10 to optimise it with the 103, other than with the options available as standard, as it's a D.I.Y job with shunt resistors, so that may have made a difference. Regardless though, it's a very good SUT and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it.

The graininess you're referring to was resolved by upgrading the phono sockets on the A23, which as standard uses 'American type' sockets, which have a shorter 'stub' than usual, and this wasn't making a proper connection with the RCAs on the Mark Grant G1000HD cables I was using, thus signal integrity was compromised.

It'll be interesting what you're impressions are of the SPU when you visit again later in the year (presuming you're going to the Practical Hi-fi/Audio T Manchester show, as usual?), as IMO, there is nothing 'fruity' about the presentation of the SPU in the context of my system, and nor did it possess this characteristic in Dave Anderton's with his L-07D. If it did, he would've hated it and run a mile, as Dave likes a lively, up-front type of presentation with his music. He does, after all, use DBLs.....! ;)

Have you heard a current, new batch, SPU? I believe that the new wood resin body-shell removes the coloration imbued by the older headshells.

Perhaps you could bring the Technics EPS310 with you, and we could fit it to my deck and make some comparisons? I'd find that most interesting, as I'm sure you would do, too :cool:

We could also compare M3Ds and see if you feel I'm getting any different results with it than you are.

Marco.

I probably will do Manchester as its a good show & well attended.
I'd be happy to bring the EPS310, the Shure and the Io up in headshells so you could hear each of them (The Io does need its own tranny though)

I really need one of those nice FR cases for carrying 5 or 6 headshells that I occasionally see on ebay!

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Originally Posted by pure sound

I probably will do Manchester as its a good show & well attended.
I'd be happy to bring the EPS310, the Shure and the Io up in headshells so you could hear each of them (The Io does need its own tranny though)

I really need one of those nice FR cases for carrying 5 or 6 headshells that I occasionally see on ebay!

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Been after one of those for years! They do seem to be elusive, haven't seen one on eBay for a long time.

Regards

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Originally Posted by pure sound

I probably will do Manchester as its a good show & well attended.
I'd be happy to bring the EPS310, the Shure and the Io up in headshells so you could hear each of them (The Io does need its own tranny though)

I really need one of those nice FR cases for carrying 5 or 6 headshells that I occasionally see on ebay!

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Nice one. That would be most interesting.... :)

It'll be game over with the Io, though, as it's an absolutely fantastic cartridge, and should easily outperform everything else. It's probably the only modern hi-end cartridge I'd consider buying, or that I consider is worth the money.

Anyway, that's another excellent sesh to look forward to! :cool:

Marco.

According to Chester Group they have stopped doing both the Manchester and the Scalford shows.

Good job the show I'm referring to isn't organised by Chester Group then! ;)

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Originally Posted by saltleyseagulls

According to Chester Group they have stopped doing both the Manchester and the Scalford shows.

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Do you remember what I asked you to do the last time you posted here, and the other three times before that? It's a simple and entirely justified request.

Just to refresh your memory:

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Now, can we have your first name and location please, mate? I've asked you this before on more than one occasion. It's something we insist new members provide here, and unfortunately you may lose your posting rights if you choose not to comply. We don't do 'anonymous' on AOS.

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Since you have continually refused to comply with my request, your posting rights have been suspended forthwith until you email me the relevant details through the 'Contact Us' button at the bottom of the homepage, at which point your posting rights will be reinstated.

Marco.

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Originally Posted by saltleyseagulls

According to Chester Group they have stopped doing both the Manchester and the Scalford shows.

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As you were asked on another thread please pop into the Welcome section and say hello, tell us a bit about yourself, system and musical taste. Can you also put your first name as your signature and a basic location. These are basic requirements of joining AOS.

Nothing on the Chester Group website about not doing those shows, though that in and of itself does not mean they are not doing them either.


Regards D S D L

C'mon Marco - where's Part 2? You can't leave us hanging on like this!

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Originally Posted by Shuggie

C'mon Marco - where's Part 2? You can't leave us hanging on like this!

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+1 !

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Originally Posted by Stratmangler

http://i960.photobucket.com/albums/a...newspaper2.jpg

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Just in case you missed it first time round.

;)

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Originally Posted by pure sound

I really need one of those nice FR cases for carrying 5 or 6 headshells that I occasionally see on ebay!

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These ones are only £15.

http://www.djsuperstore.co.uk/pimages/158457.jpg

that would do. Cheers. I might get one!

i have dipped in and out of this thread in the hope i might eventually see a second part... chris's newspaper has made the delay worthwhile... but blimey marco... how can you even remember the details anymore.... at least with neils tuner review its been so lon in the coming we just expect nothing... it will be a suprise when it apears.... this delay is in that really iritating ages-but-not-so-long-i-have-given-up stage .... i dont even care about 2 crazy lookin turntables il nver own and probably never hear... its just the priciple of being kept waiting ... pull that vaguly chubby thumb out the ass and get pressing that keyboard ;)

Hi Hamish,

Please read posts #25 and 29 here:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...?t=6965&page=3

No offence, but if folk go on about it any more there really won't be a second part, as it's starting to piss me off now! :rolleyes:

I also possess a retentive memory (and have made plenty of notes of what I heard at Dave's), so there's no danger of me forgetting anything :)

I trust that will be the end of the matter and people will respect this and wait patiently until I have time to write the rest of the article.

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

I trust that will be the end of the matter and people will respect this and wait patiently until I have time to write the rest of the article.

Marco.

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:popcorn:

should i have more liberally used winking smiles?... hold on, il edit it ...

edit: i put a smiley at the end...

i meant no offence marco, i was getting on the mocking bandwagon ... sorry to have been the final straw :)

No worries, dude. I just wanted to make it blatantly clear where I stood on the matter ;)

Marco.

so when do we get the next instalment then?

(to far? ;))

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Originally Posted by Marco

No offence, but if folk go on about it any more there really won't be a second part, as it's starting to piss me off now! :rolleyes:

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Have we got a 'handbag' smilie? :sofa: :lolsign:

Best I could do at short notice. :)

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g.../girlfight.gif

Patience is a virtue

Find it if you can

Seldom in a woman

Never in a man

Lol - let's all run with that thought!

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Techno Commander

Best I could do at short notice. :)

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g.../girlfight.gif

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Excellent! :D

This Patience thing is hard!! :rolleyes:

Hehe!

Had Marco not promised the review, you guys would not have moaned about the forever wait. Probably he is still in a very bad mood after his beloved Techy defeated by the awesome Kenwood L-07D. :(
I can imagine that he is selling the Technics and trying to get himself a Kenwood soon.:lol:

Yeah, and keeping so quiet about it too (snigger)....

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Originally Posted by kcc123

Hehe!

Had Marco not promised the review, you guys would not have moaned about the forever wait. Probably he is still in a very bad mood after his beloved Techy defeated by the awesome Kenwood L-07D.
I can imagine that he is selling the Technics and trying to get himself a Kenwood soon

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Hahaha.... The truth is I'm saving up for the 'real McCoy': a P2 (with an R200)!!! :lol: :lol: :D :D

Eh, Davey boy?

:rofl: :rofl:

Marco.

Wait a minute……a P2?

No, you should get its bigger brother the P3, the one in the Pioneer Exclusive series. You will regain your pride and joy with this almighty P3 or, better still, the P3a and show the people its superiority over all the others, including the L-07D.:eyebrows:

Lol - it's a rather different P2 I'm referring to!

If you're interested, follow the debate here from post #606 onwards:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...t=4396&page=61

Marco.

Marco, it's a PLANAR 2 you need to upgrade to, not the P2, a very different animal IMO...

You think I'm joking????????? ;)

What's the difference between a PLANAR 2 and a P2, then? :scratch:

Has one got less of a Mickey Mouse motor or a thicker elastic band than the other? :lol:

Marco.

The Planar 2 was up to 2000 approx and was in basically two versions. The first had a wooden trim around the plinth and an R200 tonearm and may sound best (from memory) with the Linn rubber mat it first came with (Dave Wren has the deck and I currently have the mat and the two will be married up soon). A bit feedback prone and possibly a touch fast, but extremely musical and endearing to listen to IMO. All of these decks had the motor on an elastic suspension, a superior version of the Connoisseur BD1 motor mounting system as I recall.

In 1983 (early October to be precise), the RB arms appeared, the Planar 2 lost the wood trim and the sound became dryer in sound, but more precise, the feedback problem disappearing. The thicker wool-felt mat as used on the 2 gradually seemed to thin, as did the Planar 3 mat, which was always a little thinner in any case. The plinth changed in composition too in the intervening years but I don't feel the sound changed overmuch, although as cartridges improved, the decks regained much of the early model's "musicality." - IMO...

By 2000 approx, Rega had launched an improved motor phase board, which allowed smoother running and the motor could now be fixed to the top laminate on the plinth. Speed accuracy and stability were much improved as a result. I believe the Planar 2 was re-worked not long after, given an MDF platter (chamfered and silver painted in early ones) and became the P2 (the P3 was also born at this time as I recall, but the changes could have been phased in). The Planar 25 and Planar 9 was tentative steps into higher end and the 9 was an excellent alternative to the fruit-box pre Keel I understand.

I lost touch with Rega in late 2003 as the firm I worked for self-destructed and was out of the industry by the time the new RB tonarms arrived and the 24V option was launched. I also know little of the P5, 7 and current 9, except to say that a certain dealer chain that sells Rega had the odd fully-boxed and unopened deck finding its way into client's hands. In our day, we'd have lost the agency had we not set up and tested every one we sold - only took 1/4 hour so no big deal..

Dave,

Thanks for that. In terms of our discussion here, I think we should just agree to disagree and move on, as we're POLES apart on this.

However, in order to put this debate to bed once and for all, why don't we arrange a sesh at hi-fi dave's place where I could bring my Techie down and we could compare it to the Planar 2 in question in the system of your choice? I don't mind travelling.

I'll make a bet right now that if the Techie doesn't annihilate the Rega in every conceivable way, I'll donate £200 to a charity of your choice. I'm serious.

And if my modded Techie beats it, then an L-07D most definitely will!!

What do you say? :)

Marco.

I have no axe to grind and no ego to speak of, so I'd love to hear the Techie annihilate the Rega. it would be great to meet you in person anyway and I'm due to meet Dave very soon in any case. PM him and see what he says..

I'm only having a little tease you know, So much of what the likes of me were conditioned to has been proved as wrong (to suit Linn/Naim's ends), yet much of it still holds true with any gear in any combination...

TTFN

:goodnight:

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I have no axe to grind and no ego to speak of, so I'd love to hear the Techie annihilate the Rega. it would be great to meet you in person anyway and I'm due to meet Dave very soon in any case. PM him and see what he says..

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It would be great to meet you both in person, too, and I'm sure we could have some fun. No offence intended, but I'm afraid that I just see (any) P2 as being no more than a decent budget T/T, which undoubtedly offers good SPPV. Yes, sonically, it punches above its weight - no question, but I don't in any way consider it as a top-notch turntable.

The fact is it does not have the overall engineering prowess of an SL-1210, let alone an L-07D, and as I firmly believe (and experience bears this out) that the sonic performance of any turntable, and how accurately it reproduces recorded information on vinyl, is largely down to how well engineered it is, I cannot see how any P2 could compete with either the Technics or the Kenwood. The P2/R200 I had certainly wouldn't have!

Like I said before, my Techie when it was KAB-modified annihilated my old 'race-tuned' P5, let alone what it would do to it now, so I can't see how a P2 (any P2) would be different.

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I'm only having a little tease you know, So much of what the likes of me were conditioned to has been proved as wrong (to suit Linn/Naim's ends), yet much of it still holds true with any gear in any combination...

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Yes I do realise that. I do think though that the bit highlighted above is the crux of the matter ;)

You mentioned that you were due to go down to Dave's place again at some point. When was that again? If Dave's ok with it, we could all meet up then :cool:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

And if my modded Techie beats it, then an L-07D most definitely will!!

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Ahah! Is this a sneak preview of Part 2?:)

I'm hoping to venture inland for a couple of days early in August and have loads of people to see and gear to pick up. No dates set as yet...

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Originally Posted by DSJR

All of these decks had the motor on an elastic suspension, a superior version of the Connoisseur BD1 motor mounting system as I recall.

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Really - is that where the inspiration came from?

Christ, anything would be better than the motor and suspension setup featured on that festering, steaming turd of a turntable!! :lol:

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Originally Posted by Marco

However, in order to put this debate to bed once and for all, why don't we arrange a sesh at hi-fi dave's place where I could bring my Techie down and we could compare it to the Planar 2 in question in the system of your choice? I don't mind travelling.

I'll make a bet right now that if the Techie doesn't annihilate the Rega in every conceivable way, I'll donate £200 to a charity of your choice. I'm serious.

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Are further spectators allowed? I'll bring the cake! :)

I'm sure this could be arranged, but the premises are just not big enough for all and sundry to attend a "bakeoff....." sadly.