HA!Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
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HA!Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
No 'XR' had 'HF1000' tweetersQuote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
Yes that applies to the 'UL6' & 'UL8' but the 'UL10' had HF2000 TweeterQuote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
I never liked the '25' they had a pair of HF1300' & 'HF2000'..'44' & '66' were the choice for a lot, i'm not a fan of the '66' they cause cracks in the plaster :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
Just had a quick scan through all this and have not much to add to what Andr'e has said. The Original Ditton 15 (with the HF1300 tweeter) is not is not a world beater in sound quality. But one has to remember that is was designed for the "average system" all those years ago when amplifiers were not that powerful. What it does is make quite reasonable noises with not that many watts input.
As mentioned, the HF1300 does not go that high, but what it does it does quite well.
The extreme HF would be improved with something like a Coles 4001 supertweeter.
And yes, there are several versions of HF1300, differing magnet size and impedance. Possibly the best is the version that is called HF1400, has the biggest magnet and is used in some BBC Monitors and in the B&W DM3.
One point, the Ditton 15 can be a bit boomy in the bass, they were often turned upside down and that seemed to help a bit.
Here is the HF1300 with Coles 4001G in the B&W DM2 (I have no connection with the sale).
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...E:B:SS:GB:1123
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...15XRChoice.jpg
Marco, I was wrong about the tweeter, the HF1000 did indeed seem to be the main difference in the two models and I suspect the "BBC" version of the HF1300 may have been kept going while IMF, Rogers and Spendor needed it. By the late eighties it was quietly retired as Rogers had all but gone and Spendor totally revamped the SP1, yet kept the same or very similar balance, which is some doing IMO.
The main "thing" about the XR is that there is only a three element crossover - good in terms of efficiency, but bad when one or other of the drivers desperately needs to be sorted out. As long as you can live with it, the shape is indeed excellent for the job you need it to do, although I'd have probably suggested re-foamed Mission 700's instead (the grilles would have crumbled as well, but fresh could have been obtained and trimmed to size :)
Good luck...
Inglenook fireplaces? We had a sort-of one of those, with a pig-ugly cowling which rang like a bell. Wifey hated that house and has all but wiped the five years she suffered there from her mind...
I think the Missions Marco are refering to are the '700-2'... if i'm not wrong these didnt have foam surrounds & the grills were glued on.
Interesting stuff, chaps, so many thanks for your input. I'll certainly report back on what I hear when the Dittons arrive (probably by the end of the week) :)
I suspect that any bass boominess will be largely ameliorated with future crossover component upgrades, as I've heard that happen so often with vintage speakers once they've been modified with, for example, polyproplene caps instead of the electrolytics used.
Dave, does it say what the test system was used in the review?
Spendorman (what's your first name, btw?),
I've always liked the DM2s, but wondered why B&W used such small bass drivers for the size of the cabinets? :scratch:
They look so out of proportion - as if bass units at least 2" bigger could've been used instead!
Excuse my ignorance, but was there any reason why they didn't fit bigger bass units, instead of having what seems like so much 'empty space' under the grilles?
Marco.
100% correct! See the picture here I posted earlier :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
Marco.
I had B&W 'DM2a' only last year (Fully veneered 1" thick plywood baffles) they are a Transmission line speeka, 1/4 wave....You only have to look at any Transmission line to see the Units look out of proportion, actually i think the 'DM2' look very in proportion. There's 'DM2' & 'DM2a' ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
DM2.II are a different speaker
These don't though:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...B:1123&afsrc=1
It looks as if you could almost get a 12" bass unit in there! ;)
Marco.
You probably could but then the tweeter wouldn't go low enough to marry up.
You want the 'a' version dude.. Notice the HF switch on the rear & veneered baffle. The sausage shape port looks miles better aswell.. Notice the spec ticket that says DM2/II that is not a pair of Mk.'II'Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
http://www.audiocostruzioni.com/r_s/...m2/b&w-dm2.htm
The base units lost it' foam sock, it crumbles away as does with late 'DM4'
I'm right with you there!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
.......are they not plywood then?Quote:
The beautifully pristine cabinets of the Celestions are made from solid wood (not the MDF shite used nowadays in budget designs),
.....veneers tended to be thicker then too & help to stiffen the boxQuote:
......have a solid teak veneer, and are so obviously not intensively mass-produced like your average Taiwan-derived bargain specials sold now in high street shops!
I'm with you there too, as it happens!Quote:
An unusual one for me too is that I usually prefer classic Jap 1970s transistor tuners to earlier valve-based ones. I like the Troughline, for example, but give me a lovely big 1970s Sansui, Sony or Yamaha any day!
I know it sounds like hieracy but I am with you all the way on that one :):);)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
The DM2A was a good sounding box, but the BC1 annihilated it in terms of midrange quality. The KEF 104ab was far better in the bass as well, but all this was towards the end of the DM2's life and IMO B&W went right off the rails until the 801 came along some years later.
The foam surround/grille 700's were my favourite and were better than the HB1 IMO. The HB1 took over when Mission started to change their range and beggared them up I thought. A few years later, KEF sorted the Coda (III) and the HB1 sounded a bit artificial, especially with the flawed crossover they used, making the treble detach and "spit" along with the music.
There chipboardQuote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
Solid Weetabix then!Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
Nice chipboard tho. Id rather have chippy than some bull poo MDF(Dave R tought me this wurd)
Oh right..... Well, they're still undoubtedly much better built than modern budget speakers. Like you say, chippy's better than MDF! And let's not forget the solid teak veneer. Noted on the B&Ws dude :)
Chris and Garry,
I'm glad you guys are also fans of 1970s tranny tuners.... It's about the only area where I prefer SS to valves!
Garry, regarding bass 'boominess' with the 15XRs - the fact that they'll be used on tiles on a solid concrete floor (or outside in the open) should help :cool:
Marco.
On the contrary i thought the 15XR slightly bass light!
Lol - I was going on what Garry said and what was written in the review Dave posted.....
I'll make my own mind up in that respect when I hear them :)
Marco.
Well, the Dittons arrived today, professionally packaged to within an inch of their lives, in the same 'showroom' condition as I saw them in the pictures.... My GOD these things are as MINTY MINT as MINTY MINT ever gets - they look absolutely gorgeous!! :eek:
But the best bit came when I fired them up on the end of my system..... Oh, f*ck me sideways with a big fat bargepole, these are laughably good!!! :lol:
This has got to be up there with one of the best £260 I've ever spent on hi-fi. Even just sat on the floor at the moment until I get suitable stands, they sound amazing for little stand-mount speakers. They have a massive sound for their size which is, big-boned, punchy, dynamic, crystal clear, musically expressive and just huge FUN!!
You can hear the pedigree and that these are extremely well-sorted high-quality designs from an era when loudspeakers were built properly by companies using their own cabinets, crossovers and top-notch drive units - and rather crucially, voiced by ear, not bloody computers. They are also voiced to sound real, and not like the horrid shouty sounding monstrosities so often sold these days at the budget end of the market.
Sound and build quality-wise I wouldn't hesitate to put them in the £800-1000 price bracket, no problem whatsoever, so at £260 they are an umitigated undisputable bargain.
In fact they're *so* good, once I've got some stands, I doubt I'll bother doing anything else to them.... It just goes to show how much pish is talked about on forums and elsewhere about these speakers and other vintage designs like them - all they need is some decent kit upstream and they positively sing, so it's just as I suspected, folks: don't blame the speakers, blame some of the equipment they were partnered with in those days!
Moi is a very happy bunny.... God bless Ebay! :cool:
Marco.
Nice one Marco,look forward to hearing them sometime.
Yes i've been called a prick for stating just that for so many years i forgotted. folk can stick modern speakers where the sun don't shine as far as i'm concerned regardless of how expensive they are :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Marco
Always nice to get a good surprise, enjoy! :)
Cheers, Ali and Arthur - it is indeed! But it's also a little sad, as it makes one wonder just what on earth the loudspeaker industry been doing in the last 40 years! :doh:
The Celestions now join my vintage Tannoys as veritable examples of British loudspeaker design at its best.
I wouldn't worry about it, mate.Quote:
Yes i've been called a prick for stating just that for so many years i forgotted...
Idiots like that wouldn't know what good sound was if it jumped up and bit them on the arse. Leave them to wallow in the delusion of their biased preconceptions, chasing their tails trying to get a system that they're happy with, and let those of us with good ears and without such blinkers enjoy the best of what vintage hi-fi has to offer ;)
Next up, those SL-400 stands you recommended - then we'll really be cooking with gas!! :cool:
Marco.
Awesome if you think SL-400 isnt too high..The Divine Audio i gave you link to a very fast dispatch & free postie..Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I'll double check, dude, and do some measuring. A lot will depend on where my listening position is when I put them in the lounge. Outside it won't matter as much :)
Do you think open-frame types might be better?
Marco.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I'll just say this:
And such speakers you will listen outside.I can not believe. :eek:
That would be the same if I used my own ,in also MINT condition,Sansui AU-11000 to sound some disco club.
Must have been a lot of this :cool::cool:
:lolsign:
Regards,
Lol, Robert :eyebrows:
They'll be very well looked after, I assure you, when they're outside being used in the summer months - and let's remember that in the UK we're lucky if we get 4-5 weeks of good weather, so the rest of the time they'll be used indoors ;)
What I'm looking forward to is getting them set up properly downstairs in the lounge, as I've always wanted to hear what my system sounds like on a decent pair of speakers in a different room to where the equipment is.....
The fact is, one of the biggest sources of vibration detrimental to the sound of your gear is generated by the speakers themselves when pumping out music, so it'll be very interesting when that particular effect is removed from the equation! :)
Marco.
Now I was relieved.A little.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I am familiar with that,and since you are on the island humidity is...let say over 90 percent.
For your garden party buy yourself some allwether Tannoy,Bose... :)
Regards,
I always prefer open frames but i doubt it would make much different. Those Atacamas are amazingly sturdy quality built itemsQuote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Atacamas now ordered - cheers for the recommendation, dude :)
Marco.
Well, the stands are installed now and the Celestions continue to AMAZE!
Jeezuz, now I can actually hear them properly I would accordingly revise my value estimate and, sonically, now put them quite easily in the £1200-1500 bracket....
In fact, they're so good, I'm thinking of taking them to Scalford Hall next year to demo as part of the AOS system!
I'm having so much fun at the moment listening to them inside and outside. Last night we had a barbecue and they were banging out Rammstein until 11pm - Del and were sat there with a huge grin on our chops, marvelling at how these little babies sound considering that they're not much younger we are (!) as waves of searing guitar riffs echoed out into the night sky......... :eek:
The only slightly sad thing is that one listen to these Dittons, on the end of a quality system, shows just what's wrong with the way the vast majority of sub £2k speakers these days are voiced......! :rolleyes:
As an aside, I note that the earlier Ditton 15s went for £207.99:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Celestion-Ditt...07945975371153
....which clearly shows that there is a demand for these speakers. If you're looking for a pair of top-quality standmounts, and see a pair of 15XRs in good condition (and have an open-sounding, revealing system to make the most of their qualities), my advice is to snap 'em up tout-suite! :cool:
Marco.
Marco, you're SO predictable... :) Hifi Dave and I were taking bets that you'd be raving about them 'cos you bought them so they have to be fantastic :D The need for expensive gear to drive them "properly" is a very lame excuse if you ask me :)
I'll stick with me memories of how horridly constricted and "nasal" they sounded by comparison with their mid seventies competition, let alone the far superior-voiced Ditton 22's, 33's and 44's, let alone DM4's and 2A's or KEF Chorales, which by then were in a class or two above.
Nah, if you want old-fashioned nasality, get some AR 7's or 5's or 6's. Now THEY'RE fun.....
LOL! Your memories are tainted then, matey, from using them with some cacky sounding crapola of the day! :lol: :lol:
It's got bugger all to do with me having bought them. Anyone with decent ears listening to them here would say the same thing. I'll remind you of that post when people hear them at Scalford Hall next year and rave about them ;)
Look, daftee, how many times have I been right so far with vintage stuff you've dissed, only for you to try it again on my recommendation and find that your, erm, 'memories' were a teensy wee bit inaccurate!
Anyway, I'm off soon to listen to that "poo" sounding L-07D!! :lolsign:
Marco.
Have it your own way, but I was there demming them at the time and the 15XR didn't last long.. At least there's a comparative review to show my memories aren't bad (and I haven't based my opinion on reading this either)
Amazing how much of the "crapola" gear you refer to is selling for stupid money nowadays because it's "desirable..."
Have it my own way? Of course - it's me who's listening to them sounding absolutely fantastic (considering their size), not you! :lol:
Based on what I'm hearing now, whatever results were achieved with the 15XRs 30 years ago, either in magazine reviews and/or in the shop you worked in, were almost certainly not down to flaws in their design, which is clearly very good indeed.
So you can waffle away to the contrary until you're heart's content, shweety! You do realise that the more you go on about this, the more I'll be rubbing it in with glee when you're proved wrong (yet again)!! :ner:
Marco.
P.S Barry also heard my SPU at the weekend and thus has somewhat questioned your judgement of it here ;)
You've bought a SPU?????
You can question my judgement all you like, but I still think you should get very friendly with people in the recording industry and try to visit a session or two to understand where I'm trying to come from on this. It doesn't mean you'll ditch your amps and speakers, but it may bring about a source re-appraisal perhaps..
That's my final word on the subject for now. All else is circular-arguments.
Yes, dear boy - haven't you noticed? I swapped my 103SA for one :)Quote:
You've bought a SPU?????
And it sounds so musically addictive, it's untrue!
No doubt that would be intriguing... Perhaps you could introduce me to a few people?Quote:
You can question my judgement all you like, but I still think you should get very friendly with people in the recording industry and try to visit a session or two to understand where I'm trying to come from on this.
It certainly wouldn't change my perspective on my system or the type of equipment I use, though.
I'm sure Anthony TD, who designed my valve amp as part of a pair for a studio for monitoring purposes (and who deals with people in studios all the time) would have a good handle though on where you're coming from ;)
Why should it, exactly? With some of the crap recordings made in studios these days, in most cases the sound produced is hardly a benchmark I'd aspire to! :eyebrows:Quote:
It doesn't mean you'll ditch your amps and speakers, but it may bring about a source re-appraisal perhaps..
Marco.
I love most the 'Dittons' of this era. I have to admit i can't get on the the '25's... My favs are the '33' & '44'..
Dave:
I'm puzzled by the "nasal" remark!
The 33 was a smaller and possibly bass-friendlier version of the 44 (I never compared them side by side as the 44 had gone by then IIRC).
The 25 was spoiled bu the two HF1300's interfering with each other and was the odd one out IMO.
As for the 66's, the models that replaced them and the beovox 5702 (a smaller "version" pretty well - oh yeah man..:D Wonderful things!!!!!!
:scratch: two totally different speakers..The '44' hadnt gone they went into Mk.IIQuote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
You havin a laugh Dave with B&O ;) You mean the '662' with the celestionsQuote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
Look at the Beovox 5702's and see.. They sounded very good as I remember!
The 33 and 44 WERE two different models of course. I meant to suggest that the 33 came later but don't remember the 44mk2 - we had a lapse with Celestion until the SL6 came along, which was dull and so laid back originally. They were ground breaking though for future models I thought.
Christ almighty. I think someone put the decimal point too far to the right when they put their bid in!:stalks:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Way to go Marco - you're progressing in cartridge terms then!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
At this rate of progress, I hereby predict you'll "discover" the Shure V15 in about three years time.......;)
:lolsign:
Wot? They're way too modern, daftee!
The Dittons do sound remarkably good, though. I'm sure if you heard them here, you'd agree :)
Marco.
When you get a chance have a look inside you'll see how simple the crossover is :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Ah, now that's interesting, and must go some way to explaining how 'wide-open' and uncoloured they sound.....
What's the best way in, as they're a sealed box - pop the bass drivers out and fumble inside? :)
Oi loikes a little fumble inside....... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Through the ABR unit at the bottom, don't worry it's not an electrical unit so no terminals, you'll be able to see it from thereQuote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Ok, dude, noted.... Curiosity will probably get the better of me, anyway, in terms of possible cap upgrades, etc :)
Marco.
Only one cap so you can afford a good un..you need someone with an inductance meter for the inductor values..