There is a Lockheed F-94 Starfire at the museum at Elvington near to York that I would so love to get a fine portrait of but every time I go it is in yet another shit location. One day maybe the whole situation will be spot on. I live in hope.
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There is a Lockheed F-94 Starfire at the museum at Elvington near to York that I would so love to get a fine portrait of but every time I go it is in yet another shit location. One day maybe the whole situation will be spot on. I live in hope.
I'm not sure its rate of climb (to intercept those nuclear bombers in time) was comparable but I could be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haselsh1
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I only know that the initial rate of climb of an F6 was around 53,000 feet per minute making it easy to be at altitude and ready for combat but with only six minutes worth of fuel on board I always wondered how effective it would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence001
I thought we were taking about the F15, what you're describing sounds more like an ME163!Quote:
Originally Posted by Haselsh1
Edit: oh you mean the Lightning F6 variant, I thought you meant a US plane F6.
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After 6 minutes you'd probably have used up all your missiles and ammo anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haselsh1
The Komet , now that would be a thing !!!:eyebrows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence001
I've been reading the autobiography of the top RN test pilot of WWII and after, Capt. Eric Brown, he was assigned to testing captured German types after the war. He said the Komet was exhilarating to fly, as you would expect! Only captured German ground crew knew how to get it going, so they took special measures to protect themselves against Nazi sympathisers as there was evidence of sabotage attempts on previous flights. I think he was also called upon to interview Von Braun and the Horten brothers for the British.
Well worth a read, it's called Wings on my Sleeve. Lots about the development of carrier ops with early jets. Much experience was shared with the US, along with our technology.
Speaking of dangerous German rocket planes, I wonder what he would have made of the Bachem Natter if he'd ever got the chance to test it. I suspect he would have thought twice before climbing in the cockpit!!
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:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Sure Eric said he would refuse to fly it... dont blame him either..... He was qute a pilot and probably flew more aircraft than anyoneQuote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence001
Actually that's an interesting point about interception tactics. Assuming the bombers flew solo missions one (plus maybe a back up flying a slightly different route), with 6 mins of fuel once at the target, the Lighting can only intercept a single bomber so two missiles are probably enough, if one fails you have a back up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
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Apparently the Lightning F6 carried 1,200 gallons of fuel but consumed 200 gallons per minute on full reheat. That is what I was told donkey's years back. It may be true, it may be fanciful. The missiles it carried had a range of just three miles. With Fire Streaks you had to be behind the target, with Red Tops you could fire head on. Don't forget though it had two 30mm cannon. I'm guessing though that there wouldn't have been much time to dogfight with six minutes worth of fuel..?
Ah so that's at full reheat, I read it as once at interception height it had 6 minutes of operational fuel before returning to base (rather like the ME263 which I think only had fuel for a couple of passes at the American bombers). Given its climb rate, it would only need full reheat for a couple of minutes (depending on how far over the North sea/wherever you want to get before intercepting them). When they had nuclear bombs you could get them pretty close to the UK so hopefully plenty of interception time before you only have enough fuel to get home. Once they had stand off nuclear missile capability (Kitchen was the main one IIRC) then it's not as simple, I don't know the range of those weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haselsh1
We had air to air refuel tankers (Victors, again IIRC) but they would have to be up at height ready and waiting after the climb. Unless there was always one up there 24/7 then these wouldn't be much use, except for extending the Lightning's range for planned operations elsewhere in the theatre of operations.
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Didnt Hanna Reich test one ??Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence001
I don't think so, she did test flights with the manned version of the V1 though which is probably just as crazy.
Yes , you re right !! It was the manned V1Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Yeah we also had Bloodhound SAM bases on the coast here as well. I think their range was 400 miles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence001
Re: DH110 Farnborough & the Sea Vixen
Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
And after that crash, they carted off the bodies and injured, cleaned up...and on with the show - which drew bigger crowds the next day. Different world then.
If the Sea Vixen was so dangerous, surprised there are some still allowed to fly at airshows... I saw a fantastic display from one at the the East Fortune Air Day in the 2000's. It might have been a terrible plane, but it did look absolutely fantastic, like something straight out of a Dan Dare comic.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...yYtG32nK1H6A-V
A couple more classic aircraft images taken back in the dark days of film.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ef30b5f3_b.jpgNorth American P51D by Shaun Haselden, on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...c4feb5af_b.jpgVought F4U Corsair by Shaun Haselden, on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/4608/4...0c2e669c_b.jpgCurtiss Kittyhawk by Shaun Haselden, on Flickr
Ah, a mustang.. Fast plane that.. Became the f51 during Korean war I think
Helped win the war by escorting the US bombers all the way over Germany in their daylight raids with enough fuel to dogfight. It's reputed that when Goering saw them over Berlin he said the war was lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
Awesome pics :)
I have a Mustang type wheel in my shed :eyebrows:
And the Tuskegee Airmen, flying Mustangs shot down the first ME262sQuote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence001
'The Tuskegee Airmen shot down three German jets in a single day.[42] On 24 March 1945, 43 P-51 Mustangs led by Colonel Benjamin O. Davis escorted B-17 bombers over 1,600 miles (2,600 km) into Germany and back. The bombers' target, a massive Daimler-Benz tank factory in Berlin, was heavily defended by Luftwaffe aircraft, including propeller-driven Fw 190s, Me 163 "Komet" rocket-powered fighters, and 25 of the much more formidable Me 262s, history's first operational jet fighter. Pilots Charles Brantley, Earl Lane and Roscoe Brown all shot down German jets over Berlin that day. For the mission, the 332nd Fighter Group earned a Distinguished Unit Citation.[37]'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Airmen
Beautiful photos as always.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haselsh1
Those English Electric Lightnings were awesome.. Regarding the Shackleton, i didnt think their were any of them left..
Neil, I'm a bit confused as to the meaning of this claim. Do you mean that the 332 Fighter Group shot down the first 262s of the day on Saturday 24th of March 1945, or do you mean 332 had the first combat kill of an ME262 during WW2?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectral Morn
The first me262 downed was forced to crashland, in fact the first 2 were by a p47.. first one shot down was by spitfires if i remember right..
Here you are boys !! :)
http://donaldnijboer.com/who-shot-do...2-jet-fighter/
IIRC the 262 was vulnerable when coming in towards landing , (as were most aircraft to be fair) as throttled back made them less of a speeding target , and a diving P47 or P51 / Spitfire , took a better advantage !!
That's right it's possible they were shot down in combat but if they were downed when coming into land I wouldn't go shouting about it as a great achievement, is rather unchivalric really. Although the US pilots may not have had the classic esprit de corps/cavalry attitude of the European forces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddball
There may have been chivalric actions carried out by individual pilots, but in the main the air war was ruthless, and was so right from the start. Sorties on enemy airfields timed to meet returning bomber streams were standard practice for both the Luftwaffe and the RAF during WW2. These were known as intruder missons by the RAF, who typically deployed Mosquitos and Beaufighters to engage German bombers they came into land after night sorties. The Luftwaffe used intruder raiding againt the RAF and the USAAF right up until the end of the war: while the RAF intruders, having practically no German bombers deal with anymore, intruded the intruders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence001
Its a wki article, not my writing. It was my understanding that the red tails were the first to shoot down me262s in combat. There is more info if you read the article at the end of the link.Quote:
Originally Posted by Landloper
Yes that's a fair point, they were all at it. The bomber/air defence war was pursued with different values to the earlier campaigns like the Battle of Britain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Landloper
Thanks, Neil. I had a read through. As far as I can tell the first destruction of an ME262 by Allied fighter action seems to have taken place in August 1944. Two fighters from the 78th FG, not the 332nd FG, were credited with the kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectral Morn
The 'Red Tails' have accrued a few myths over time. One was that no US bomber was lost while the 332nd were on escort duty. This appears to have been a claim writen by an African American journalist working for the African American Chicago Defender during 1945. The claim was repeated since the end of the war and was used in the advertising for film called The Tuskagee Airmen. It was only when the Tuskagee veterans appointed another veteran of WW2 to be their offcial historian that the claim was investigated. Using the 332's own combat reports the claim was found to be groundless. The historian was an African American, William Holton, and his book of the 332nd FG was greeted with disbelief and emotional opposition by the surviving veterans. The vet's association then asked another veteran, one of their own, a former Tusagee airman called William Holloman to investigate Holton's claim that the never-lost-a-bomber was untrue. Holloman concurred with Holton's findings. Matching the 332 combat reprts with the MACRs [Missing Air crew Reports] of bombardment groups escorted by the 332nd proved that the ciaim was indeed untrue. It seems that the very idea that the record should be examined at all was though racist, even though it was some of the veternas of the 332nd who asked other African American veterans to undertake the verificatory work.
What a re-examination did show was thatt he numbers of bombers lost while the 332nd was assigned as fighter escort was below average. Not quite as glamourous as 'never lost a bomber', but a great achievement and a genuine testament to the courage and professionalism of the 332nd FG.
Properly speaking The Tuskagee Airmen also included the 477th Bombardment Group USAAF, an outfit so bedevilled by the racsim of certain commanders that many of its officers mutinied and the group never saw combat. The story of how badly the 477th was treated may be found here: http://ecctai.org/tuskegee-477th-bombardment-group
Apologies for coming late to the party, I've only just seen this series of posts.
You've hit a nerve with me on this subject.
Reading what a few of you say strikes a chord with me as I was an Air Cadet in the mid 70's and spent much of my youth drooling over all these planes and some of the bases too.
Our squadron CO (who was young at the time flew Lancasters just as WWII was coming to an end): his son was a Lightening pilot. One of his anecdotes, and I don't know if it was true, was that they only did a limited tour on Lightenings of something like 6 months - otherwise they began to loose their hearing !
One summer camp was spent at Waddington and happened to be when they decided to run a TACEVAL. I remember being in the middle of the airfield when all the Vulcan squadrons were scrambled. It was unbelievable !
At the time I was impressed, but now with hindsight - I can't believe how lucky I was.
In those days I had a Zenit B and shot a lot of transperancy (slides). Most were in colour but I have one set in B&W that I shot at RAF Finningley in 1977. As ATC we were allowed to the dress rehearsal for the Queens Silver Jubilee Air show.
I should dig them out and get them scanned as they'd be far easier to see than having to get a projector & screen out.
Unfortunately I could bore you all shit-less but better leave those facts/stories for another time.
Sounds fascinating Mark, I for one would be interested in seeing your pictures, and reading further anecdotes!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinyl turner
Love to see those photos sometime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinyl turner
For what it is worth, here's the opinion of a 262 pilot:Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
'...the Messerschmitt Me262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempest - extremly fast at low altitudes, highly manouverable and heavily armed.'
[Hubert Lange of 1/KG51 - quoted on 'The Hawker Tempest Page'].
tempest was a fast plane.. think it w\s an improved typhoon...Quote:
Originally Posted by Landloper
It was and also forerunner to the legendary Sea Fury!Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
Aye, the Tiffy was mostly (3,000+) produced at Brockworth/Hucclecote 5 miles from me. You wouldn't know it as you pass by nowadays. Nothing, not even a measly plaque. The Typhoon's finest hour seems to have been the halting of the German counterattack at Mortain in 1944:
"The chief credit in smashing the enemy's spearhead, however, must go to the rocket-firing Typhoon aircraft of the Second Tactical Air Force... The result of the strafing was that the enemy attack was effectively brought to a halt, and a threat was turned into a great victory."[Eisenhower]
[...or, perhaps, the attack on the HQ of the 15th German Army in October 1944 by 146 Typhoon Wing resulting in the deaths of 2 generals and 70 other staff officers, greatly reducing the effectiveness of the 15th and thus aiding its defeat at the hands of the advancing Canadians].
Funnily enough I was watching this video about the rocket attack on the HQ of Panzergruppe West a few months earlier on the treadmill at the gym yesterday:Quote:
Originally Posted by Landloper
https://youtu.be/c844En8XvC4
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Thanks for the link, Lawrence. Despite the warning about not meeting in easily identifiable locations, the staff of the 15th Army decided to congregate in Park Merwestein, Dodrecht in Holland and met the same fate at the as those in Chateau La Caine, again Typhoons from 2 Tactical carried out the strike. Incidentally it was 2 Tactical Airforce that undertook Operation Jericho, the attack on the Amiens Prison in February of 1944.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence001
I was in the RAF as a boy from 16 to 21/22 and served most of my time on XI Sqn Binbrook working on Lighnings. A fabulous jet to work on but ab bugger to work on also. It was built as an out an out interceptor and for is age it was fantastic with incredible climb to height performance that held many records until a stripped down F15 managed to beat it eventually.
It was also the only jet that managed to catch and outstrip Concorde in level flight with many others trying and failing.
I have fond memories and am still in touch with many old colleagues even now. A military mate is for life.
The line at Binbrook. Had some fun, worked bloody hard and it was COLD in the winter.[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/KVMvfzp/Binbrook-Line.jpg[/IMG]
Thats me in the middle at the bottom of the ladder.[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/W26RTr9/Ian-Turnet-...n-Akrotiri.jpg[/IMG]
APC in Cyprus at Akrotiri. I'm on the LH side sitting with my legs out on the wing.Again worked hard but had some serious fun also.[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/qMwCM80/11183441-95...60008547-n.jpg[/IMG]
Another Cyprus APC. I'm the short one in the middle at the back.More of the same.[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/58qjprp/Cyprus-87.jpg[/IMG]
great story and photos john.. lightning was a fav of mine too... amazing what it could do for its design date
It was unbelievable in terms of speed and climb to height. Not much duration and up and down like a yoyo but we loved it for what it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by struth
Nice one John great pics.
I remember these at Leuchars. I read somewhere they used to be a pig to service particularly the top engine which required the bottom to be removed. But happy to be corrected if I have this wrong :)
They were not really built to be worked on. It was 60's technology in terms of the airframe so lots of small panels and captive fasteners. We even used wire locking on many nuts and bolts. I often glued nuts to my finger when working blind through two small panels so as not to drop anything. By th end of the day you had a bald finger tip. If you dropped anything inside it often meant dropping the ventral tank and taking out the engines to find the loose objects. That never made anyone very popular.Quote:
Originally Posted by graham67
I remember the first time a Dutch f16 Sqn came to Binbrook and I watched one of their long haired yetis press a button and take half the fuselage off one side exposing most of the inner workings. He almost walked into the plane and we were in shock. So easy to work on.
Everyone loved the Lightnings though so we got to travel all over the world with them. It was an absolute blast.
I did a small tour on Harriers. Another great jet but nothing on the Lightning. Also finished my time on Tornado on the TWCU at Honnington. Interesting but nothing like XI Sqn which was proper old RAF.
:) brilliant hopefully not araldite!! Bet u would have killed for some blu tack !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by speedyj
Recently read and can highly recommend Valiant Boys. Although not as famous or as good as the later V bombers, it was the first so a huge step forward and took part in the nuclear tests in Oz and Christmas Island and Suez.
An interesting read for military aircraft tragics :)
And for real anoraks like me, this is great fun
Salute In Sound: 50th Anniversary Of The R.A.F. [LP]
Group Captain Douglas Bader CBE, DSO, DFC - Salute In Sound: 50th Anniversary Of The R.A.F.
Url: https://www.discogs.com/Group-Captai...master/1119335
Shared from the Discogs App
Love putting this on and cranking the big JBLs up to window rattling levels