All of these (rather well described) differences are ones that I have also noted when bearing noise is reduced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuggie
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All of these (rather well described) differences are ones that I have also noted when bearing noise is reduced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuggie
Hi YNWaN,
I have only just joined this forum on the reccomendation of a happy bearing user, I did not know about it before!! So hello everyone and I am encouraged to read that you all seem to be experiencing the ideals that I set when I designed and machined up the first protoype.
I do however have one observation/comment regarding drag.
I did not specifically design any degree of drag into the bearing Per Se, rather it is a function of the extremely close fit between the spindle and the honed "oilite" bearing bush, less than 0.008 mm The oil used is very thin, but still the viscous friction in such a very small clearance causes the very smooth tight feel.
Hello Mike and welcome. I greatly admire the engineering that went into the bearing, it has the feel of very high quality. Notwithstanding that, my Technics is sounding superb and I'm still detecting some improvement in sound quality as it beds in. Great product!
Tell us what equipment you use and what you like listening to.
Hi Mike,
Welcome to AOS - great to have you on board :)
Marco.
Hi Mike
Welcome to AOS ' your bearing upgrade has made a lot of music lover's very happy ' hats off to you sir .
I have Dave's bearing in my 1210 ' but i intend to upgrade to your bearing when the time is right .:)
Greetings Mike, good to have you here. The bearing's a work of art, you can 'feel' the work that's gone into it and it sounds fantastic (or should that be it doesn't 'sound' at all?):)
REM
You have hit the nail on the head so to speak, so many folks on another adio site spend all their time defining how a bearing sounds.
My system:-- NAD M3 and SACD player driving KEF 203 reference speakers. The speakers are Bi wired via the outputs A & B on the M3 and the Velodyne 12" bass unit is driven independantly via the pre-amp output on the M3 (effectively bi-amping on the low frequency range) SL1200 with external PS and bearing, also 1.8Kg copper mat mechanically "connected" to platter with thick silicone grease. I have fitted an OL modified Rega 250 arm and rondo blue MC. I am about to get a SME V from Dave, as I now consider that the sonic quality of the TT justifies it.
Hi Mike,
Good news on the SME V. With your bearing fitted (and a high quality off-board PSU), I don't doubt that the SL-1200 now deserves an arm of that calibre :)
As more and more people have your superb bearing fitted to their SL-1200/1210s (and trust me that will be the case with the exposure it'll get here on AOS and elsewhere), I predict sales of more expensive tonearms to partner it (other than Jelcos, etc) will increase accordingly. Good news for Dave!
I believe that your bearing is a landmark product and will elevate the performance of the SL-1200 to unprecedented levels, making it one of the best turntables available at any price.
I'm off down to Dartmouth today to have my bearing fitted to my SL-1210, and a full review of its performance will follow!
Marco.
P.S Where are you from, Mike?
Have a good day Marco.
Cheers, Nick - will do. Dave's always the most congenial of hosts. It's around a 650 mile round-trip, so you can't say I'm not keen! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Marco,
I am from the colonies!! Sydney, OZ, although I was born and went to school in Reading. I worked for Crosfield Electronics in North London back in the early 60s who sent me out here in 1961 as a computer field engineer, I liked it so much that when I finished travelling around the world, including two more trips to OZ, I got married and settled here. It was only after my wife died of the big C that my interest in Jazz and classical was re activated and I started to look at how my own SL1200 could be improved. The rest I guess is to the advantage of all of you who seem to agree that my efforts were worth while.
I do not make the very high precision spindles. These are made for me by a Tool and Gauge making company who are both ISO 9001/2004 certified and are also NATA certified test Lab for Aerospace and medical work.
Hi Marco
Hope you are reading this!
Local politics means I HAVE to be at a meeting at 6:00, no question. So could you come earlier, or you could come to the meeting, if you think thread drift is bad, you will be amazed, a pizza in the DA afterwards?
Regards
Dave
Lol - just about to leave, Dave. No worries - sounds good to me! :cool:
Laters,
Marco.
Hi Marco
I'm sure every monotonous motorway mile will be rewarded with marvelously melodious music bach at Marco mansions....:)
Mike,
You're going to love the V, there seems (to me at least) to be a certain synergy between the Techie and SME arms, can't explain it there is a rightness to the sound, maybe it is in the decks' DNA, after all the original 70's decks were supplied with armboards precut for the 3009 were they not?
Cheers
Hi Ralph
You really shouldn't say things like that ' you will have me lusting after a 309 ' i used to have the 10 inch version on my Voyd now gone :(
Both the techie and SME share the same elegant engineering principles ' have i said that right ' :scratch:.
Ralph, I wish you wouldn't say that either as I seriously miss my SME IV which I stupidly sold with my Roksan Xerxes years ago. They also match AT cartridges rather well. I'm getting tempted and I may just contact Dave C about one soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by REM
:wah::brickwall:
Right that's it ' not playing any more
Seriously Martin if you can do it ' why not treat yourself:)
And i may or may not be interested in your 250st:rolleyes:
Damn - don't give me extra reasons, man!Quote:
Originally Posted by chris@panteg
I do goooood deals on SME!
DAve
Martin i can see it now ' you ' glass of wine in hand ' your favorite record sat on the Techie ' and fitted to it a lovely spanking new series IV mmm ' suit you sir ' .;)
Talk about badge snobbery.......:lol:
Blimey, if lusting after the products of one of the best engineering companies in the world is badge snobbery, sign me up! :)
It is at their prices :lol:
I was informed by Rega that the RB300 bearings were at least as good as the SME V's ball-races/shafts and someone else said that the pipes were sent out on piece-work polishing etc...
I honestly bet that the Jelco's are as good, apart from the fact that they use a detachable headshell.........
There again, I'm probably wrong - I did rather admire the 309 when it was £500 or so!
The SME bearings have a higher ABEC rating. There is a very nice fixed headshell Jelco!!
Marco has just left, we had a great time, the Mike New bearing producing shed loads of über low and steady bass from the Kraftwerk Live LP's.
Regards
Dave
My Jelco doesn't have a detachable headshell. I'm relying on memory here, so perhaps Dave C could comment on how the SME IV sounds compared with the Jelco SA250ST? Since I used the SME on a different turntable I can't be sure how they would compare on the Technics.Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
I do have a Michell TecnoArm(A) and an Ultracraft AC300 lying around, but I don't think either will outperform the Jelco.
And mine is producing similarly über low and steady bass too! I'm actually rather surprised at the extra bass extension, but very pleased that it is so well-defined. The double bass player on 'Walk on the wild side' could be in the room with me, such is the natural reproduction of string and body resonances. Fantastic!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Cawley
CD is definitely off the menu for a while.
Hi Mike :).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_New
I'm afraid the only experience I have of your bearing is holding one in my hand. However, I thought it was worth saying that I thought it was nicely done :). After all, it can seem as if the only people who praise a product own it or sell it (neither are entirely objective).
I did wonder if the drag was entirely caused by the close tolerance of the bearing - I have encountered such before. As you say, even low viscosity oils can provide surprisingly high levels of drag if the tolerances are close enough.
It is interesting that the bearing drag was not a specific intention as, whether by intention or not, I suspect that it does impact upon the efficacy of the design as a whole. Anyway, many thanks for the clarification - very interesting :)
I was told some years ago by a friend in engineering that higher spec ABEC bearings were only a few quid difference - around a tenner at the time, probably fifteen quid now..
I loved using the 309 and series V though. The M-2 series are apparently very good too for most purposes. Remember, the series V has been out since the mid eighties at least and tooling costs should have been written off many years ago. What's left is pure profit I reckon..
higher spec ABEC bearings were only a few quid difference - around a tenner at the time
And when the trade price of a Rega arm is £65.00 ............
Dave
Not that long ago Dave.
Gawd, I'm getting more like Richard Dunn every day (apart from unkind comments on one of his favourite cartridges).
I must have a brain malfunction to go with the 'lurgy.......
Hi Dave,
Indeed it did! The new bearing obviously wasn't run it yet, but the 'before and after' listening test we carried out revealed a marked and significant improvement with it fitted, which I could easily detect even on an unfamiliar (and, notably worth mentioning, quite impressive) system... :)Quote:
Marco has just left, we had a great time, the Mike New bearing producing shed loads of über low and steady bass from the Kraftwerk Live LP's.
I'll go into this in more detail later when I have a listen to the deck in my own system (prior to writing a full review of the effects of the bearing) and get a proper handle on what it's doing.
Thanks again mate for fitting the bearing and your meticulous attention to detail. It's always a pleasure coming down to visit (and eating your wife's wonderful cake!) Your new demo room looks very good indeed, especially with that spectacular view below from your window of Dartmouth bay :cool:
Marco.
P.S Hope the meeting went well last night! ;)
I kept my mouth shut last night! The beer and Pizza was good though...........
Dave
C'mon Marco! You have been strangely silent!
Now that my Mike New bearing has had a really good run-in (not to mention the Whest phono amp which is also quite new), I had an extended listening session last night. The whole LP playback experience has really taken a significant step forwards for me. Everything is more palpable with a highly 3D soundstage, more shape to instruments and very tight bass. I had worried about the AT33PTG slightly lacking in balls but that thought has gone completely. I'm thinking to leave well alone a turntable system that is displaying a very good level of synergy.
Hi Shuggs,
Lol - too busy listening to music, matey, it sounds that good! :lol:
The Mike New bearing is an absolute no-brainer; I'm just trying to work out which has the most fundamental and significant impact on the Techy - that or the Time Step PSU. It's a tough one!
Got a busy day today and tomorrow, so further thoughts will follow after that...
Marco.
Hi Martin,
I'm glad that the Mike New bearing is doing the biz! I'm pretty gob-smacked at the difference, TBH; I'm just in the process of getting my head around exactly what it's doing so I can put it into words properly for the review :)
It'll be interesting finding out what your thoughts are regarding that issue when you hear the SA-750/DL-103SA combo on my T/T. I know from experience that (cartridge-wise) it's a quite a different presentation from the 33PTG.Quote:
I had worried about the AT33PTG slightly lacking in balls but that thought has gone completely
Marco.
Yes, I'm really looking forward to that comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Hi Martin
I think that's very wise ' i feel a little guilty trying to encourage you to go for an SME ' it was irresponsible and somewhat shameless of me :eyebrows:.
I still have not ruled out a 309 :rolleyes:
How do you feel about the comparison with your digital front end now ' .
Dave told me that you get roughly 80% performance after about 20 hours use with the new bearing 'and 100% after about 100 hours or so .
I think that last 20% is the most satisfying improvement ' just my thoughts.
Hi MarcoQuote:
The Mike New bearing is an absolute no-brainer; I'm just trying to work out which has the most fundamental and significant impact on the Techy - that or the Time Step PSU. It's a tough one!
Got a busy day today and tomorrow, so further thoughts will follow after that...
Marco.
Well if i can bring the words of Ivor Tiefenbrun ' into this thread he always stated the bearing is of paramount importance ' my own view is it probably is more fundamental in improving the 1200 ' .
Look at any top end or even middle ground deck and take a peek at the bearing fitted .
No worries, Chris. I do still lust after an SME IV but then I used to have one and I know what utterly fantastic pieces of engineering they are. In all honesty, I can't fault the Jelco and while I retain the AT it's a perfect match. Should I go for another cartridge in the future, though, it'll be no holds barred.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris@panteg
The arm I really *really* lust after is the Triplanar.
Hi Chris,
It was very nice chatting to you yesterday - got your PM, btw :)
Yes, I'm coming round to that way of thinking, although the effect of the Time Step PSU is equally fundamental, but simply in a different way. I'm not sure that fitting a Mike New bearing without the Time Step PSU already in place would be the best way of going about things.
Experience tells me that the general poor quality of the stock PSU, situated underneath the platter, causing low-level hum and generating a sonically detrimental magnetic field in the process, deteriorates the sound far more than the mechanical inadequacies of the stock Technics bearing...
However, THE most significant factor beyond a shadow of doubt, which succeeds in completely transforming the performance of the SL-1200/1210, is that the combination of BOTH bearing and PSU upgrades lowers the noise floor and distortion/coloration so dramatically, thus allowing one massively greater insight into recordings of music, that it renders the rather bland and musically uninspiring sound of a stock SL-1210/1210 as completely unrecognisable and, in conjunction with a top quality arm and cartridge, catapults it head-first into the veritable 'superleague' of high-end turntables. I have no doubts whatsoever about that.
Having listened intently to the effect of the Mike New bearing with music over the last few days, I have little doubt that my Sound Hi-fi modified SL-1210 is now every bit as good as the venerable and highly acclaimed SP10 - certainly those I've heard so far - and if there are others out there which are better and would outperform my modified SL-1210, then the forthcoming platter upgrade should all but close the gap.
Ok, folks, that's it for now until I write the full review in Strokes of Genius. Look out for it later in the week, as I'm sure that some of you will find it interesting reading! :cool:
Marco.
Hi MarcoQuote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Yes that puts in a nutshell and perhaps any future buyer's would be better advised to get both the psu and bearing upgrade ' and there is the option of Dave's cheaper but still very effective timestep bearing .
Yes my advice, if you're serious about hearing what this turntable is truly capable of, would be to do both in the one hit - not cheap, but then it depends if you're after having merely a good T/T to play your records on, or a truly exceptional one......Quote:
Yes that puts in a nutshell and perhaps any future buyer's would be better advised to get both the psu and bearing upgrade...
The latter, unfortunately, rarely comes cheap!
Marco.
It may not be a cheap T/T anymore but it still represents outstanding VFM. Even with the psu, bearing, arm, feet, mat, (am I missing anything?), the Techie still costs less than the Keel 'upgrade' alone for the LP12.:)
Precisely. Kind of puts it all into perspective, doesn't it?
Forget about the LP12, I'd rather use the Techy, the way it is now, than any 'high-end' turntable I could afford at £10k and beyond! I'd love to put it up against an SME20, Brinkmann La Grange, or one of the top Avids or Kuzmas, for example, using the same arm and cartridge in the same system, just to see what happens ;)
Marco.
Shoot, I'm going to have to sell this spare set a speakers to finance all this.
"Rather bland and musically uninspiring" is one of the last things l would call stock Techie to be perfectly honest- against all the upgrades maybe:sofa:
Hi Andy,
Well we'll have to agree to differ, matey. I personally couldn't live with the stock one :)
Marco.
Marco, l am so happy with mine, but we will have to agree to disagree, but the upgrades do look tempting:).
Happiness and satisfaction is what it's all about, Andy. The good thing is, if you love your Techy now, you've got a mind-blowing whole load of fun still to come!! :eyebrows: :)
Marco.