Rip off British Hi-Fi Industry

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How do they do that? by adding extra components or better components? by redesigning the product for you?

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Oi, SM, you know perfectly well what Steve meant so stop being facetious ;)

I agree with him - a good dealer is worth his weight in gold, for a variety of reasons, although I tend not to use them so much these days.

Tony from Coherent is certainly one of the good guys, and Larry, et al, from The AudioWorks - rarely does anyone 'go the extra mile' for customers more than they do. In my experience, the guys there have a dedication to the cause that's second to none.

There are other good dealers, too. Perhaps someone should start a thread on 'Vote for your favourite UK hi-fi dealer'? - Or somesuch. I'm sure it would be very popular!

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Oi, SM, you know perfectly well what Steve meant so stop being facetious ;)

I agree with him - a good dealer is worth his weight in gold, for a variety of reasons, although I tend not to use them so much these days.

Tony from Coherent is certainly one of the good guys, and Larry, et al, from The AudioWorks - rarely does anyone 'go the extra mile' for customers more than they do. In my experience, the guys there have a dedication to the cause that's second to none.

There are other good dealers, too. Perhaps someone should start a thread on 'Vote for your favourite UK hi-fi dealer'? - Or somesuch. I'm sure it would be very popular!

Marco.

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SM :confused: facetious :scratch:

A manufacturer makes £100 for designing, building, etc. A retailer makes £150 (of your money) for sitting on his arse and making you feel good when he gets your money :mental:

Not all retailers "sit on their arse", as you describe. You have a somewhat jaundiced viewpoint on this matter, Richard.

SM = Super Muppet, i.e. YOU.

Facetious? Look it up! ;)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Not all retailers "sit on their arse", as you describe. You have a somewhat jaundiced viewpoint on this matter, Richard.

SM = Super Muppet, i.e. YOU.

Facetious? Look it up! ;)

Marco.

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Not jaundiced but realistic.

I worked in electronics and Hi-Fi retail. Part time Saturday lad at G.W.Smith Lisle St, back to them after excursions into Uni (not for me) dropping out, into the 60's thing and repairing marshalls and fenders and vox's and lugging them around on stage brain dead from chemicals. Then the merger with Laskys that formed Audiotronics and the new Lasky's (which was really a Smiths takeover). Shop manager in Lisle St and Edgware Road and then sent up to Leicester to open and manage the shop there and promoted to area manager before moving on to Acoustic Research.

So I know retail, it is hours of boredom followed by frantic activity as they all turn up at once. In those days retail was necessary, there was no other way for manufacturers to sell their products. Now retailers are Dinosaurs, they are dying not only in Hi-Fi, look at the High Street - Coffee Bars, Restuarants, Banks, Building Societies, Estate Agents and Charity Shops. In the next 10 years the High Street and the Hi-Fi Industry will look totally different to now in terms of how it is sold, but the specialist product will be *very* similar in concept as it has been for the last over 20 years.

Retailers were a necessary evil, now they are an unnecessary evil, and both they and their apologists are struggling like mad to justify the unjustifiable. Money and value always dictates, they are losing it now and that process can only progress.

Is it possible that retail has changed a bit in the 30+ years since you were involved at the coal face?

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Originally Posted by Chris Frost

involved at the coal face?

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Aaaarrrggghhh!!!!.......'Management speak'!!! <runs away at great speed>

:lolsign:

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Originally Posted by Richard

Sorry I was a little hard on you, obviously you do listen with at least a degree of open mind. I am just up riding my hobby horse, and getting caried away on the sound of my own voice, a very easy thing to do. This is and has been a slow moving revolution for the last 5 years or so. I just feel that if the runes being thrown at the moment means a one or two year recession then the process will accelerate. My point is that if retailers didn't exist then you would have to rely on fellow enthusiasts and manufacturers, that process would immediately mean you would be paying half as much on average for you specialist hi-fi than if you *have* to buy it through a retailer. Absolutely no disadvantage as most set up things are common sense and like minded people can help online. Peoples minds get set into a *think* so they cannot see hi-fi life without retailers, but without them and a common sense attitude from the manufacturer a £10K system cost £5k.

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Richard, don't worry you weren't hard on me, just trying to get your point of view across, perfectly ok.

In some respects I agree totally with you. The last few components I've bought have been ex-review phono bought direct from the distributor with a serious saving to me, a cdp bought 2nd hand and again at a serious saving and a cart/step-up bought from Japan and not available in this country.

All 3 were bought via the internet, some direct fromthe shopping trolley such as the cart/step-up some advertised on the web and subsequently ordered over the phone.

Did I need a dealer to purchase these componets ? Not really. they were cheap enough that I was confident I would get my money back by using the web to sell them on myself. The componets are all still in my system so the gamble paid off and they are superior to the components they replaced, imo of course and excepting the cart which was more to have a play :)

For me hifi dealers lost their way when AV became the big money spinner and too many decided hifi wasn't important.

As for the setup, well things were a bit different then. I didn't hang around on hifi fourms, didn't know the importance of speaker positioning and things like that. My speakers are still in same position that Linn dealer placed, and I have tried after reading and talking to others, but they still sound best where the dealer set them up.

I do agree that a lot of hifi can be overpriced, some manufacturers who decided to ship the manufacturing to China and yet increase their prices are the most annoying, some of these established uk manufacturers.

I see you sell on ebay, but after my ebay account was hacked and subsequently my email and then they went after my Paypal I decided never to use Ebay again, especially with how difficult they can make it to get you back on line sometimes. this for me is still the major failing of the internet and when trust goes then you will look elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Richard

Not jaundiced but realistic.

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Nope, I still say jaundiced; precisely because of your past experiences which have tainted your view of things seemingly forever...

Realistic? Perhaps the majority are as you describe, but you can't tar all retailers with the same brush!

The fact is there are quite a few UK hi-fi dealers who are genuine enthusiasts like you or I. The only difference is they have a shop and are trying hard to make an honest living whilst selling something they're passionate about.

Hint: It might help your argument if you were just a teensy bit more reasonable ;)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Nope, I still say jaundiced; precisely because of your past experiences which have tainted your view of things seemingly forever...

Realistic? Perhaps the majority are as you describe, but you can't tar all retailers with the same brush!

The fact is there are quite a few UK hi-fi dealers who are genuine enthusiasts like you or I. The only difference is they have a shop and are trying hard to make an honest living whilst selling something they're passionate about.

Hint: It might help your argument if you were just a teensy bit more reasonable ;)

Marco.

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Not unreasonable, all retailers are tared with the same brush. They took the devils shilling. True enthusiast are like Shian7, they take up the soldering iron (one sort) or concentrate on music like Gromit and Jerry (the other sort).

As soon as it is a living you kill it. Yet lots want to turn it to a living - become reviewer - become retailer - become forum owner :lol::doh:: Then you have to create more - more reviews and companies giving me product - more customers and turnover and more profit - more members and more chances of slurp.

I do not only dig at retailers, it is the slurping triumverate I rant at - marketing men - magazines / reviewers - distributors / retailers. They are on-costs, wastes of time and space and wastes of your money. Their functions are migrating to the web (apart from marketing men, and they really have no sensible function apart from irritation). My original point in the rant thread was that *some* forum owners want to turn it into a quad-verate (no such word) of troughees (no such word).

Again my point is there are only two important things, people who design and build product and people who use product. Everything else is on-cost.

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Originally Posted by griffo104

I see you sell on ebay, but after my ebay account was hacked and subsequently my email and then they went after my Paypal I decided never to use Ebay again, especially with how difficult they can make it to get you back on line sometimes. this for me is still the major failing of the internet and when trust goes then you will look elsewhere.

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Ebay is learning and changing, it started as a poor mans junk / pawn shop, so it is hard to lose that image. It attracted the modern day spivs and wide men. It takes a while to lose an image but the latest changes are going that way and they are finally solving the spammers / frauds problem. Ebay just takes a little common sense like most things. I use it for a very simple reason, my on-costs and work load to sell is very low compared with everything else, so I have more time to design and build, which is what I want to do, and I am determined not to hire on-costs to do it for me. Ebay / Paypal even virtually run my sales invoicing and accounts for me. I just only need to keep a simple quickbooks record for my manufacturing costs and overheads.

Basically I am a simple little man looking for a simple life. :smoking:

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Coherent makes things so he is fine doing that, perhaps he should make more things.

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Audio Works also makes things. They have that in common too.

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Originally Posted by Richard

Not unreasonable, all retailers are tared with the same brush.

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That's a hell of a generalisation.

As for ebay; it's brilliant as long as you don't want any service included.

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Originally Posted by Rick O

That's a hell of a generalisation.

As for ebay; it's brilliant as long as you don't want any service included.

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What service :scratch: it is a direct selling method - the service is down to the seller. That is why the feedback and the new star system so you see a record and a reputation.

I have few complaints about eBay. Damn good portal to my own website:eyebrows:.

I have been asked many times why I don't increase my sales by selling to retailers. Well frankly my dear, I don't give a damn about retailers wanting to do business with me. They want 60% margin, may pay in 60 to 90 days, and want coverage on postage etc of goods returned as faulty. Some even demand compensation if goods cannot be supplied, and they won't accept price increases no matter if production cost go up.

The only downside of selling direct is that the goods can be sold in a lower price range. It is a sad fact of life that a lower price is seen as an inferior product. I have learnt from that, so some of my next items will reluctantly see a price hike so that I can bank all that extra money with tears in my eyes. If I don't increase the prices I won't gain respect and see a flood of punters beating a path to my door. It's a mad world out there, but bragging factor about how much one spent on their equipment is still king:(.

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Originally Posted by Richard

Again my point is there are only two important things, people who design and build product and people who use product. Everything else is on-cost.

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Who says that every audio designer also wants to be the guy responsible for selling, packaging, administering etc?

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Originally Posted by Sensimilia

It is a sad fact of life that a lower price is seen as an inferior product. I have learnt from that, so some of my next items will reluctantly see a price hike so that I can bank all that extra money with tears in my eyes. If I don't increase the prices I won't gain respect and see a flood of punters beating a path to my door. It's a mad world out there, but bragging factor about how much one spent on their equipment is still king:(.

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Now that is interesting. So one of your biggest challenges is getting people to appreciate the quality despite the price.

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Originally Posted by Chris Frost

Now that is interesting. So one of your biggest challenges is getting people to appreciate the quality despite the price.

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Nope, in my case it is the other way round. Getting people to appreciate the low price, despite the high quality. THE most common comment levelled against my product is that how excellent it is for such an unbelievably low price. That basically says it all as far as pricing pitch is concerned. Some punters on some forums go as far as to mention that they are looking for a similar product that cost a bit more:scratch:.

It reminds me of two guys at my former workplace. One had a Jag and the other an Aston. Both looked alike and both were Ford cars. But the fact that one was more expensive made it the more popular invite at lunch time.

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Originally Posted by Sensimilia

THE most common comment levelled against my product is that how excellent it is for such an unbelievably low price.

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Point me in the direction of your 'product' please so that I have a clue!

:scratch:

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Originally Posted by Shian7

Point me in the direction of your 'product' please so that I have clue!

:scratch:

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http://www.homehifi.co.uk/main/main.html

HTH

And currently it's being used in my system,making a Perpetual Technologies DAC and upsampler redundant.

:smoking:

There are lots on ebay like Sensi and me, mostly home cable makers but others are coming up with things. Also lots of kit bits appearing, including rip off copy boards from China, which I don't really approve of :( but copy Naim amp boards for £20-£30 :eyebrows::doh::scratch::confused::mental::ner:

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Originally Posted by snapper

http://www.homehifi.co.uk/main/main.html

HTH

And currently it's being used in my system,making a Perpetual Technologies DAC and upsampler redundant.

:smoking:

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Ahh! Right, I see, I've seen that before and now I know why there's a new version every other week or so!

:lolsign:

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Originally Posted by Richard

Tell him to sell it on ebay - forget the dealers, they screwed him the last time.

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What are you like? :lol:

Not every bugger wants to buy their hi-fi from Fleabay!

Marco.

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Originally Posted by matodono1

Hi Richard,

You say it as you see it and I like that, don't get me wrong I am not against ebay. I myself have sold hundreds of hifi related items on ebay to all corners of the globe (username "matodono1").

Not only that but I have helped a number of my web clients market on ebay including a stonemason client of mine trying to sell gravestones (which almost succeeded if you can believe that).

Arthur K of the funk firm has sold loads of Achromats and Achroplats on ebay with listings that I designed, but that is as far as he can go. If he starts selling TT's direct he risks losing all of his dealers.

Unfortunately most people who spend more than £500 on a hifi product want to try before they buy and for that you need dealers. Selling new and unknown products on the internet (even if they are backed by positive reviews) is a big ask.

So the dealers are needed and ebay and dealers don't mix.

If your experience is different then I am all ears as I don't wish to miss any marketing tricks.

Thanks again,

Matt.

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It is all in the archives.

The future IMO is web, forum, bakeoff, customer / enthusiast based. Retailers are dying ducks and anything dying will try to protect its territory during its death throws.

It is not there yet but this current recession should accelerate it.

Arthur should bite the bullet and go direct, what is the point in trying to compete with Linn BS and their dealers NLP, they are dying and will strike out at anything to protect themselves (as I understand he is experiencing). Start now and he can grow with the new way.

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Originally Posted by Marco

What are you like? :lol:

Not every bugger wants to buy their hi-fi from Fleabay!

Marco.

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You know perfectly well ebay is a channel not the principle.

It is the principle I am pushing, ebay will have to change to meet customer asperations, and it seems it sees this and is changing. It is a very convenient and easy channel at the moment but if you want more work then do it via your own website and make the promotion and marketing *customer* based as opposed to retailer based. Price is premium during recession.

You know it makes sense.

BUMP!:bag:

Come on anyone not voted yet.

Yer read the argument, you have your own experience so :eyebrows:

It is running neck and neck *you* can decide the outcome :respect:

I'd certainly like better channels than Fleabay. We need dealers and they need to be good by adding value.

I'd certainly like to be rid of the box-shifty dealers.

In some ways it undoubtedly makes sense, Richard, but it's by no means a universal panacea for manufacturers selling their products.

There is without doubt still a place for good knowledgeable dealers who know their (carefully selected) product range inside out and who can thus offer customers excellent advice and service. Trust me, places like this do exist! ;)

You'll love this (not), but it's my belief that Ebay buying is responsible for why many people are unhappy with their hi-fi systems, and are constantly changing their equipment, chasing 'audiophile nirvana'. There is a lot of dissatisfaction out there amongst hi-fi enthusiasts, which is obvious from reading various forums, and it's because people are seeking a 'quick fix' as cheaply as possible. Well, unfortunately, it's not always as simple that!

Assembling a synergistically-matched musically rewarding hi-fi system is not just a matter of buying equipment cheaply from Ebay and flinging it together hoping that it will work - it's about knowing what components synergise musically with each other, and what cables, stands, and any other essential ancillaries bring out the best in those components to make a system work. Furthermore, it's about knowing how to set it all up correctly to ensure everything performs as it should do.

The fact is that a good dealer (such as I have described above) is in many cases much more able to carry out the above effectively than someone who doesn't have the necessary knowledge and experience, and this quite rightly reflects the premium you pay for such service and expertise. Don't get me wrong, the ones that actually offer this type of service are sadly in the minority, as so many will sell you anything and just see you as a pound sign, but good dealers do exist and they are more numerous than you think.

Remember also that many people enjoy the facility of being able to listen to equipment at a dealer’s premises, and then obtaining a home trial of said equipment, if it suggests promise when auditioned - all without being charged a penny first, before buying. This facility is quite normal for a customer once a rapport has been established with a particular dealer. In those circumstances it is indeed how I always do business, and I expect and have no problem with being charged for it.

The best things in life are worth taking time over. One could say buy in haste, repent at leisure...

Marco.

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I'd certainly like to be rid of the box-shifty dealers.

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Me too. They give everyone else a bad name and do bugger all to help genuine enthusiasts.

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

...You'll love this (not), but it's my belief that Ebay buying is responsible for why many people are unhappy with their hi-fi systems, and are constantly changing their equipment, chasing 'audiophile nirvana'....

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I have to agree with Marco here. I watch certain ebay selections (search criteria) quite a lot and I'm amazed at how many usernames I see and recognise as repeated buyers and sellers. I sold my Audiolab pre-amp some time ago and within 5 days it was back on sale, chap didn't like it and was going to try something else. Thing is if he'd have listened to it first he could have saved himself all the bother of buying and selling etc etc. I've known a few circumstances of that.

It's great if box swapping is a hobby (like Jerry's), but most audiophiles want a system they're happy with - and a dealer is the only way to experience that BEFORE parting with money.

Saying that I've bought a lot of hi-fi from ebay and it's a great place to find unusual equipment that one would probably have a hard time finding otherwise. However I've always listened before purchasing.

Richard I know you have your full moneyback guarantee which shows the faith you have in your products, but most manufactures and sellers don't offer this and so the risk increases that one will be unsatisfied in the long run.

I stand in both camps, I can see where Marco is coming from and I can certainly see where Richard is coming from - both have their merits. However with most folk (non-audiophiles) choosing convenience over outright quality, web purchasing makes a whole lot of sense. :)

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Originally Posted by Marco

In some ways it undoubtedly makes sense, Richard, but it's by no means a universal panacea for manufacturers selling their products.

There is without doubt still a place for good knowledgeable dealers who know their (carefully selected) product range inside out and who can thus offer customers excellent advice and service. Trust me, places like this do exist! ;)

You'll love this (not), but it's my belief that Ebay buying is responsible for why many people are unhappy with their hi-fi systems, and are constantly changing their equipment, chasing 'audiophile nirvana'. There is a lot of dissatisfaction out there amongst hi-fi enthusiasts, which is obvious from reading various forums, and it's because people are seeking a 'quick fix' as cheaply as possible. Well, unfortunately, it's not always as simple that!

Assembling a synergistically-matched musically rewarding hi-fi system is not just a matter of buying equipment cheaply from Ebay and flinging it together hoping that it will work - it's about knowing what components synergise musically with each other, and what cables, stands, and any other essential ancillaries bring out the best in those components to make a system work. Furthermore, it's about knowing how to set it all up correctly to ensure everything performs as it should do.

The fact is that a good dealer (such as I have described above) is in many cases much more able to carry out the above effectively than someone who doesn't have the necessary knowledge and experience, and this quite rightly reflects the premium you pay for such service and expertise. Don't get me wrong, the ones that actually offer this type of service are sadly in the minority, as so many will sell you anything and just see you as a pound sign, but good dealers do exist and they are more numerous than you think.

Remember also that many people enjoy the facility of being able to listen to equipment at a dealer’s premises, and then obtaining a home trial of said equipment, if it suggests promise when auditioned - all without being charged a penny first, before buying. This facility is quite normal for a customer once a rapport has been established with a particular dealer. In those circumstances it is indeed how I always do business, and I expect and have no problem with being charged for it.

The best things in life are worth taking time over. One could say buy in haste, repent at leisure...

Marco.

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Sorry but this is complete and absolute nonsense. There are far more people who buy on ebay who have had far more opportunity to get a good system. Some of them even make a hobby out of the process like Jerry. You buy - you no like - you sell - in some case for loss in some for profit. It is just swings and roundabouts. Buy from a retailer and find it is a mistake and try to sell it and you will probably get half of what you paid for it - because that is its true value :doh:

Dealers no longer serve a purpose, they used to be a necessary evil but are slowly becoming redundant. You are stuck in the past Marco.

Service will be provided by manufacturers and choice will be a function of community. You are doing it here already, you are taking the function of retail and magazines in providing information and community. It is just a couple of steps further, steps that are being taken at wigwam and others will follow.

Who do you think will give you accurate information, an enthusiastic or not user, or retailer who hasn't had his daily slurp. It's a no brainer.

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Sorry but this is complete and absolute nonsense.

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I'm sorry, but it isn't - it's the result of my (and others) experience!

Read what Rob has to say.

Richard, you do your things your way; that's fine. But I would not buy and sell hi-fi equipment the way you describe, and I know plenty of others like me who agree ;)

Good luck to those who do it your way, and enjoy it, though!

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

I'm sorry, but it isn't - it's the result of my (and others) experience!

Read what Rob has to say.

Richard, you do your things your way; that's fine. But I would not buy and sell hi-fi equipment the way you describe, and I know plenty of others like me who agree ;)

Good luck to those who do it your way, and enjoy it, though!

Marco.

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OK, so pay 100% more than it is worth - your loss!

Not at all, and I don't mind paying extra for good service and peace of mind.

If you audition equipment carefully enough in the first place, and make sure what you're buying is what you want (long term), then there is no such loss. I'm not into 'box-swapping', like Jerry. Good luck to him, though!

It's the reason why I rarely change my equipment - because I'm thorough and time to make sure I've made the right decision when making a purchase, and as such am 100% satisfied with my system.

When the times comes to sell equipment on, it won't owe me anything ;)

Your way is risky and too much of a bloody headache (for me anyway)!! :lol:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Not at all, and I don't mind paying extra for good service and peace of mind.

If you audition equipment carefully enough in the first place, and make sure what you're buying is what you want (long term), then there is no such loss. I'm not into 'box-swapping', like Jerry. Good luck to him, though!

It's the reason why I rarely change my equipment - because I'm thorough and time to make sure I've made the right decision when making a purchase, and as such am 100% satisfied with my system.

When the times comes to sell equipment on, it won't owe me anything ;)

Your way is risky and too much of a bloody headache (for me anyway)!! :lol:

Marco.

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Again nonsense - zero risk with new product and fun with second hand product.

By law you have to have 30day return for full refund if entering into an on-line contract. Your loss with some people is P&P, but that is about the same as petrol etc to go for dems, and dems mean nothing. You name me a retailer who will allow you to return goods at 30days for full refund :confused: If any few and far between. You really do not know much in the first few days let alone hours and minutes. Any hi-end piece of equipment will take at least a week to come on song and show its potential, so infact on-line would be a far more accurate and safe way to assess product.

Headache - sitting on computer, listening to others talk about the product you are interested in, maybe going round to a fellow member and having a listen, buying on line and knowing you can return at 30 days for full refund AND paying half the price.

Headache - Phoning around retailers for advice, reading magazines. Selecting a retailer, going to the shop for dem, having the gear at home for a couple of days before having to return it, AND paying twice the price.

I ask the forum which headache is the more acceptable, as I said - a no brainer.

If budget is any consideration at all (and it always is with me), then IMHO on-line wins every time.

I know other won't agree, but..... <shrugs>

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OK, so pay 100% more than it is worth - your loss!

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Richard,

You have now clearly answered my question; you are indeed one of those fellows who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

I suspect however that yours may actually be a jaundiced view - one that stems from too many temper tantrums that may have cut you and your products off from the market place via the more conventional routes.

Richard,

What are you like! :lol:

Why is everything you don't agree with always "nonsense"?

There *is* a risk doing things your way because you never know 100% for sure if you'll manage to sell unwanted equipment, and whether or not you'll take a loss on it. I can't be arsed farting about like that, unboxing stuff, boxing it back up, and shipping it. I don't consider it "fun"!!

I know people who do things your way and their living rooms look like dealer demo rooms with all their unwanted (unsold) gear strewn across the floor!

If I'm going to use a dealer my buying procedure is thus:

1) Identify equipment wanted and find a dealer who stocks it.

2) Phone up or email said dealer and arrange an audition.

3) Listen to said equipment with my own music and if it shows promise arrange a home trial to assess said equipment in my own system (minimum period one week).

4) After trial period is over, decide to buy equipment or not. If I decide to buy equipment I return the demo stock to the dealer and place an order for said equipment and pay, or buy the demo stock (if available) at a reduced price. He might even have some second-hand equipment I like that is fully guaranteed ;)

5) When in possession of said equipment, set it up, press 'play' and enjoy beautiful music :smoking:

I don't care what it costs or what inconvenience this procedure entails in the short term, because in the long term I know if I've been thorough that I'm guaranteed musical satisfaction and thus will save a fortune on constant 'upgrades' and/or buying and selling unwanted equipment :eyebrows:

Marco [Who's owned his CD player for 3 years, his preamp and power amp for 4 years, his T/T for 1.5 years, and his speakers for 8 years, and NEVER complains on forums about problems with his system] ;)

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Originally Posted by Steve Toy

Richard,

You have now clearly answered my question; you are indeed one of those fellows who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

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If anything, I would have said the reverse was true.

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Originally Posted by Shian7

If budget is any consideration at all (and it always is with me), then IMHO on-line wins every time.

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Of course budget is a consideration. With me, though, if I can't afford what I really want then I save up until I can, otherwise I do without.

Marco.

P.S One other point I would add for everyone is that dealers are very good at sussing out serious buyers from time wasters, and this is reflected in their willingness or not to offer (longer) equipment home-demos. Fortunately, I've somehow managed to have no problems arranging such demos ;)

OK... no problem.

Let's try a little experiment. Recommend a piece of equipment to me, say, a cartridge for instance. And tell me how much you would expect to pay for it?

:eyebrows:

P.S. Isn't this getting a bit off topic ? :)

OK point by point.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Richard,

What are you like! :lol:

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A really nice and honest bloke!

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Originally Posted by Marco

Why is everything you don't agree with always "nonsense"?

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Because it is - it beyond the stage of being mistaken.

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Originally Posted by Marco

There *is* a risk doing things your way because you never know 100% for sure if you'll manage to sell unwanted equipment, and whether or not you'll take a loss on it. I can't be arsed farting about like that, unboxing stuff, boxing it back up, and shipping it. I don't consider it "fun"!!"

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No difference with a on-line retail contract to a High St retail contract, same laws apply. You still have to pack, but from retail you have to take it back. From on-line it is collected from you. Selling unwanted equipement is the same either way, but if you pay twice as much for it you are sure of a hit to your pocket.

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Originally Posted by Marco

I know people who do things your way and their living rooms look like dealer demo rooms with all their unwanted (unsold) gear strewn across the floor!

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So this defeats your previous argument that you don't get enough choice to compare at home on-line, so which is your argument.

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Originally Posted by Marco

If I'm going to use a dealer my buying procedure is thus:

1) Identify equipment wanted and find a dealer who stocks it.

2) Phone up or email said dealer and arrange an audition.

3) Listen to said equipment with my own music and if it shows promise arrange a home trial to assess said equipment in my own system (minimum period one week).

4) After trial period is over, decide to buy equipment or not. If I decide to buy equipment I return the demo stock to the dealer and place an order for said equipment and pay, or buy the demo stock (if available) at a reduced price. He might even have some second-hand equipment I like that is fully guaranteed ;)

5) When in possession of said equipment, set it up, press 'play' and enjoy beautiful music :smoking:

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No different to on-line you can do the same and have the same, but without having to leave your home - and you pay half as much - no brainer.

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Originally Posted by Marco

I don't care what it costs or what inconvenience this procedure entails in the short term, because in the long term I know if I've been thorough that I'm guaranteed musical satisfaction and thus will save a fortune on constant 'upgrades' and/or buying and selling unwanted equipment :eyebrows

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More fool you, you are not typical, and constant upgraing is disease that follows this idustry no matter where you buy it from, no difference.

:

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Originally Posted by Marco

Marco [Who's owned his CD player for 3 years, his preamp and power amp for 4 years, his T/T for 1.5 years, and his speakers for 8 years, and NEVER complains on forums about problems with his system] ;)

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You are arguing a lost cause, it matter not how long you have kept it or anything you say here - the same applies to you where ever you buy - it is not an argument for retailing. If you could buy your new car on line for half price would you go to a car showroom - no - and it will get to that industry eventually as well.

Oh yes, cartridge recommendations...sorry, I must get to that! ;)

As for the discussion being off-topic, you're right, so I'll attend to it later.

The off-topic stuff will end up in Richard's 'ranting room' :lolsign:

Marco.

To cut to the chase:

Richard,

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You are arguing a lost cause...

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Hahaha... Never a truer word was said - you're far too stubborn and pig-headed to be rational!

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you are not typical

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No, thank God for that, and nor will I ever be as far as your kind of buying and selling world goes ;)

One small point, though, when buying new, good dealers will DELIVER and INSTALL the equipment as part of their service (even just to audition if you're an existing customer), so once the order is placed you don't have to leave your armchair (except to eat, have a shit, etc, etc,). Stick that up your pipe and smoke it, baby! :)

Anyway, this discussion is going round in circles so it ends here. Subject closed until I tidy up the 'debris' and get the thread back on-topic!

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Richard

BUMP!:bag:

Come on anyone not voted yet.

Yer read the argument, you have your own experience so :eyebrows:

It is running neck and neck *you* can decide the outcome :respect:

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Fascinating result so far, especially considering we have 12 dealers here registered as trade members.:doh::ner::p

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Originally Posted by Shian7

Ahh! Right, I see, I've seen that before and now I know why there's a new version every other week or so!

:lolsign:

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These are the kind of lies that I strongly object to.
There were loads of recommendations and help from my initial buyers on how to make my DAC more popular if I could improve some of the initial short comings. I finally got it right last year September and subsequently released the MK6/3. That has been described as being damn close to the Chord64, etc. It has been out since October 2007 and is selling quite well. Even got Disney to order some, plus various radio and TV stations. They love the price versus performance and order them in quantity from me. So the suggestion that I release another one every week is a total slur, and one of the reason I mentioned to Marco why I wasn't keen to get involved on any more forums. Your position as moderator should bring with it a greater sense of responsibility, instead of driving us out of the market with dishonest claims. Is that the aim of the forum?
I got my enemies, but name me any other British DAC that beats the hell out of the Chinese and US offerings in terms of performance at student wages prices. Even my digital coax at less than £20 puts many 3 figure sum leads to shame and sells in fast quantities, but never gets mentioned in any lead discussion. The big names have been creaming the wallets of you guys, and slagging my products off is one way to keep you in their pocket. With a little help from their friends on forums...

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Originally Posted by Richard

...Headache - sitting on computer, listening to others talk about the product you are interested in...

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No worse than stating your point of view on a forum. :D

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Originally Posted by Richard

Headache...reading magazines...

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I must admit I love reading my monthly issue of Hi-Fi Choice - excellent for keeping abreast of the ever changing world of hi-fi.

:)

Tut Tut Tut!...

First of notice the 'LOL' sign matey!

Second it was in no way a criticism, I'm very much interested in buying one in fact, remember our PM's a short while ago when you offered me a demo?

The comment I made is based entirely on your forum user name and what it implies (to me at least)... 'Sensimilia' a much sought after, err, 'plant with certain properties', some of which may induce the need to fiddle/tweak stuff.

Chill out Bud (err, no pun intended).

:peace:

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Originally Posted by Shian7

Tut Tut Tut!...

First of notice the 'LOL' sign matey!

Second it was in no way a criticism, I'm very much interested in buying one in fact, remember our PM's a short while ago when you offered me a demo?

The comment I made is based entirely on your forum user name and what it implies (to me at least)... 'Sensimilia' a much sought after, err, 'plant with certain properties', some of which may induce the need to fiddle/tweak stuff.

Chill out Bud (err, no pun intended).

:peace:

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Have some understanding for the poor sod he has been subject to some severe libel and objectionable pandering to the industry insiders incumbent on wigwam, or as I call them the £50ers. AND the management there yet again succumbed - slurp slurp.

Look back in the archive I came here incognito with the same paranoid attitude to forums from my experience. I was pursuaded this one was different, so we have to pursued this guy. We know who he is now. I know you weren't dissing the guy and anyway it was me who made the first joke here at him being up to Mk 15.5, so I will apologise first - sorry mate, just my stupid sense of humour.

The industry is largely made up of manipulative bastards, but that is only 'cos they are now running scared. We all should have some sympathy for them, not long now, their time is running out, they feel the fear :lol::lol:

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Originally Posted by Richard

The industry is largely made up of manipulative bastards, but that is only 'cos they are now running scared. We all should have some sympathy for them, not long now, their time is running out, they feel the fear :lol::lol:

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Oh and BTW - before you missinterpret again Sensi (which in Japanese means teacher - master :eyebrows::)) I am not refering to you but the bastards who orchestrated the attacks on you (and me BTW) - we know who they are :smoking:

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Look back in the archive I came here incognito with the same paranoid attitude to forums from my experience

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You certainly did. I remember those 'dark' days...

Now you're part of the furniture ;)

Marco.