Just pulled the trigger on one of these babies....

Whether we can hear above 20K is one valid issue but so is the question of what is on a record over 20k. Supertweeters can definitely reach the frequencies they claim - my own are pretty flat to 40K, but that's only part of the story. In my own case I built them because the tweeters in my main speakers roll off quite quickly above 10K. One would expect the addition of a driver partly crossing into the operating range of another to adversely impact image focus and make the sound brighter. In actual fact the sound does not seem any brighter and focus is actually improved!

With such an extended frequency responce, isn't it the harmonics that are greatly improved? Even though the ear can't hear that high, but you'll still notice an improvement.

It's interesting to see the frequency response chart almost matches the AT150 MLX, with a similar kick up around 10kHz. The 150 MLX is 5db at this point, so slightly higher. I think you need to revisit the AT house sound Marco. Admittidley, the 150MLX only goes from 10Hz to 30kHz, but the top end is beyond your hearing range anyway, but it's much cheaper and on paper does similar things.

I realise that the Denon is an MC, and the 150MLX is MM, but I would be intrigued to hear the differences between the two, and something higher up the AT range as well. As I said on paper, the responses are very similar.

Oh god, just a flippant post and still the nonsense continues. Take the latest post - 'isn't it the harmonics that are greatly improved? Even though the ear can't hear that high, but you'll still notice an improvement." Now come on. That statement deserves some analysis. A suggestion that an extended frequecy response beyond the range of human hearing (and remember that men over 40 have a greatly reduced frequency response, despite what they might imagine or what their hifi dealers might tell them) improves harmonics. Well, whether any higher harmonics of fundamental tones are present is going to be a function of the system that produced the fundamental tones. Yes, if we are talking about a stringed instrument, there will be a series of harmonics present in the string's vibrations, but remember that the fall away of the volume of the higher harmonics is extremely rapid so the higher harmonics if present at all will be increasingly low in volume. Whether any of these increasingly small high frequency sounds have been captured will be a function of the transducers that captured the original sound, namely the microphones, and the resoution of the original capture matrial, eg the magnetic master tape. Electronc music producing pure tones won't generate harmonics in and of itself, unless they are part of the tone that is programmed to be produced. And then to cap it all the statment "Even though the ear can't hear that high" and the grand non sequitur "but you'll still notice an improvement". Quite how exactly? With a some special audiophile auditory organ that the rest of the population don't have? With the third eye? Because you've read in a hifi mag or a forum that you should be able to detect some difference?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pimlicoquad

Oh god, just a flippant post and still the nonsense continues.

---

It may have appeared to you as "flippant", but with the absence of any smilies, in order to indicate irony, it certainly didn't come across like that - and now you're referring to perfectly valid input as "nonsense".

I suggest that you cease your blatant thread-crapping, aggressive tone, not to mention disrespectful and condescending attitude, or face a week's ban without any further warning. We don't tolerate that sort of behaviour here.

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CageyH

It's interesting to see the frequency response chart almost matches the AT150 MLX, with a similar kick up around 10kHz. The 150 MLX is 5db at this point, so slightly higher. I think you need to revisit the AT house sound Marco. Admittidley, the 150MLX only goes from 10Hz to 30kHz, but the top end is beyond your hearing range anyway, but it's much cheaper and on paper does similar things.

---

I've heard the 150 (and also the 440MLA) and like them both, but I expect the DL-S1 to be rather different. I'll let you know the score on that one when the Denon lands! :)

Marco.

I really hope it is! I've spent enough on cartridges recently with the 2M Black and SAE 1000LT, but plans for an upgrade can always be made. I'll be placing an order for a platter soon, so my upgrade journey is almost over. The only things left to buy will be vinyl, and a decent MC cartridge (and the Slee Elevator EXP)

Are you going for the ETP platter or a Funk? :)

Marco.

Not sure at the moment.
A mk 1 Funk is cheaper, a mk 2 would be interesting, but I hear nothing but good things about the ETP.
Any chance of a decent pic of the ETP?

Ideally, I would like all three here so I can pick my favourite.

Not my T/T, but the platter is identical:


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/541/enkr.jpg


Marco.

Cool. Thanks.
It will probably come down to who is willing to do the best deal for me at the end of April, (may be sooner).
If I go for a Mk2 funk, it will have to be a plain one.
I don't think there is going to be a massive difference between them if I am perfectly honest. I doubt I will ever get to hear them all, so it will be a case of paying my money, and taking my pick. I am still hoping a 2nd hand Mk1 turns up at a bargain price. I think the Mk1 Funk may be discontinued soon now that the Mk2 is around. So there may be an opportunity to get a deal from someone wanting to shift "old" stock.

I looked at getting a platter machined up at my friendly machine shop, strictly as a one off, but they are struggling for capacity for the foreseeable future, so I have resigned myself to buying one. It didn't look too difficult. The only interesting thing was going yo be getting the bearing on a CMM to get an accurate profile of the taper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CageyH

I don't think there is going to be a massive difference between them if I am perfectly honest.

---

Having compared them both the other day, side-by-side in the same system (with having Darren's Techy here to play with), I can tell you for a fact that there isn't a massive difference between them ;)

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pimlicoquad

Oh god, just a flippant post and still the nonsense continues. Take the latest post - 'isn't it the harmonics that are greatly improved? Even though the ear can't hear that high, but you'll still notice an improvement." Now come on. That statement deserves some analysis. A suggestion that an extended frequecy response beyond the range of human hearing (and remember that men over 40 have a greatly reduced frequency response, despite what they might imagine or what their hifi dealers might tell them) improves harmonics. Well, whether any higher harmonics of fundamental tones are present is going to be a function of the system that produced the fundamental tones. Yes, if we are talking about a stringed instrument, there will be a series of harmonics present in the string's vibrations, but remember that the fall away of the volume of the higher harmonics is extremely rapid so the higher harmonics if present at all will be increasingly low in volume. Whether any of these increasingly small high frequency sounds have been captured will be a function of the transducers that captured the original sound, namely the microphones, and the resoution of the original capture matrial, eg the magnetic master tape. Electronc music producing pure tones won't generate harmonics in and of itself, unless they are part of the tone that is programmed to be produced. And then to cap it all the statment "Even though the ear can't hear that high" and the grand non sequitur "but you'll still notice an improvement". Quite how exactly? With a some special audiophile auditory organ that the rest of the population don't have? With the third eye? Because you've read in a hifi mag or a forum that you should be able to detect some difference?

---

Blimey, a few paragraphs wouldn't go amiss either.

If its nonsense then perhaps I failed to make my point but its something I put to someone who I regard and respect very highly!

What are the main benefits of such an extended frequency range such as the EPC100 mm cartridge? It was a couple of years back now but Richard Peachey said something along the lines of greater or extended harmonics?

Can anyone enlighten me as to whether this so?

Mr Pimlico has been given a week's holiday, in order to learn some manners.

Marco.

I'm reasonably thick skinned Marco, if what I said was nonsense or the musings of a daftee I can take it you know:D

I know that, Chris. However, as you also know, that's not how we address each other here on a friendly forum like AoS, least of all on thread I've started about a new toy I'm getting! ;)

I simply won't tolerate that pish.

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chris@panteg

With such an extended frequency responce, isn't it the harmonics that are greatly improved? Even though the ear can't hear that high, but you'll still notice an improvement.

---

That's the idea, or part of it anyway. But the naysayers would say that vinyl simply cannot support the extended high frequency information required to allow it to happen.

MY position is that I understand and accept what the anti supertweeter commentators have to say - what they write is justifiable and makes sense. However, for whatever reason, I have found a supertweeter to make a genuinely worthwhile improvement - the reasons for which deserve further investigation.

I don't know what the frequency response is of the Coles supertweeters in my DM2's however I sure as heck detected when one of them had failed, and I have 51 year old ears :eyebrows:

To get the full benefit, I assume you also need to make sure that the phono stage and amplifiers don't clip the output, and can support these frequencies?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YNWaN

MY position is that I understand and accept what the anti supertweeter commentators have to say - what they write is justifiable and makes sense. However, for whatever reason, I have found a supertweeter to make a genuinely worthwhile improvement - the reasons for which deserve further investigation.

---

...but in the meantime, you're perfectly happy trusting your ears telling you that there is a genuinely worthwhile improvement, so the naysayers can bleat away until the cows come home, meanwhile you're just enjoying the music! ;)

And dat's exactly how it should be brovva!

:exactly:

Marco.

Well yes, precisely - but I'm still interested in discovering the mechanism by which the subjective improvement is achieved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YNWaN

That's the idea, or part of it anyway. But the naysayers would say that vinyl simply cannot support the extended high frequency information required to allow it to happen.

MY position is that I understand and accept what the anti supertweeter commentators have to say - what they write is justifiable and makes sense. However, for whatever reason, I have found a supertweeter to make a genuinely worthwhile improvement - the reasons for which deserve further investigation.

---

Thanks Mark, I agree.

Just another input to the criticality of the pre-amp interface with the DL-S1. This link is to a continuation of the A'gon discussion on another forum, and provides some more detail about matching the DL-304 and DL-S1 to pre-amps:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98674.0

regards

Angus

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YNWaN

Well yes, precisely - but I'm still interested in discovering the mechanism by which the subjective improvement is achieved.

---

Sure, but that's (for me, anyway) very much a side-issue. The most important thing is enjoying the 'fruits of your labour' and revelling in the increased enjoyment of listening to music the improved sound has resulted in! :)

Life's too short to obsess over the 'whys and wherefores' or the 'ifs and buts' (not that I'm saying you're doing that, though). I never understand why folk insist on turning their hi-fi hobby, which ultimately is about (or should be about) the enjoyment of music, into a fooking science thesis!! :rolleyes:

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by phonomac

Just another input to the criticality of the pre-amp interface with the DL-S1. This link is to a continuation of the A'gon discussion on another forum, and provides some more detail about matching the DL-304 and DL-S1 to pre-amps:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98674.0

---

Thanks for the link, Angus. I'll have a good read of that :)

Edit: just looked - I've already read it, during part of my research. Thanks anyway!

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

.... I never understand why folk insist on turning their hi-fi hobby, which ultimately is about (or should be about) the enjoyment of music, into a fooking science thesis!! :rolleyes:

Marco.

---

Because many folk equally enjoy the scientific and engineering side of the hobby, take Audio-Talk as an example. Some of us have curious minds and like to understand the science and engineering part as well as enjoy the music in equal measure. :)

:interesting:

That's absolutely fine, Neal, as long as you don't look down upon others who think differently from you, or try and force them into occupying the same mindset ;)

You, of course, don't do that, and neither do most of the guys on audio talk. However, whenever I get a sniff of that pish happening here, it's immediately stamped on!

Marco.

Exactly, its all about respecting the view point of others...

Unless we audition super-tweeters which only have output above 20kHz we can't know whether what we're hearing is down to our sensing ultrasonic frequencies. I feel it is a lot to do with the overlap in the audible range.

As super-tweeters generally overlap existing tweeters we can't de-couple what we hear in the audible range from ultrasonic. My hunch is that if we kill off the ultrasonic aspect of super-tweeters they would sound just the same....but it's only a hunch. At the same time I'd be happy to believe that we can sense ultrasonics vs hearing them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NRG

Because many folk equally enjoy the scientific and engineering side of the hobby, take Audio-Talk as an example. Some of us have curious minds and like to understand the science and engineering part as well as enjoy the music in equal measure. :)

:interesting:

---

I have to agree with this. The engineering aspects, and proposed solutions to problems (that may or may not actually exist) fascinate me. My engineering background has meant that I have actually boycotted purchasing certain products as the manufacturer will not answer some basic questions about the properties/specifications of there product, without revealing the "secret" part of their work.

This is normally used to contrast managers and engineers but seems to chime with the current topic too.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...psc956d3e9.jpg

:lol:

Quality... Nice one, Clive! :D

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Life's too short to obsess over the 'whys and wherefores' or the 'ifs and buts' (not that I'm saying you're doing that, though). I never understand why folk insist on turning their hi-fi hobby, which ultimately is about (or should be about) the enjoyment of music, into a fooking science thesis!! :rolleyes:

Marco.

---

Someone buy this man a good bottle of wine, my feelings are the same. I have been using Townshend Maxim supertweeters for years now and with the variable output of frequency I can dial in as and when needed. Normally they are set on Position 1 so just ticking in, would not be without them. Marco, get a move on lad and write up your findings on the new cartridge, looks like it would do nicely on the end of my AO modified Linn Ekos :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CageyH

I don't think there is going to be a massive difference between them if I am perfectly honest.

---

I found the difference between the two platters to be about as much as between the bearings, i.e. significant but not 'massive'.

I'd say that the improvement brought about by going from the stock bearing to the MN one is bigger than that obtained by going from the Funk platter to the ETP, quite simply because in the case of the former, you're going from something that was fundamentally built to price, and whose performance is thus constrained on that basis, to something uber-engineered and built to be the best it can.

In terms of the Funk versus the ETP, you're going from one inherently well-engineered bespoke-designed platter, free from the cost constraints/sonic limitations of the stock Technics item, to another, and consequently any perceived superiority of performance with either is ultimately less apparent than when comparing the Technics bearing with the Mike New one (and the same would apply when using the Technics platter as a benchmark for quality against either the Funk or the ETP).

In saying that, however, the sonic benefits I've obtained by changing from the Funk (MKI) to the ETP have been entirely worthwhile :)

Marco.

P.S Thanks, Ron - as soon as the DL-S1 lands, chez-moi, you'll be hearing all about it! :trust:

I haven't replied on this board in a loooong time...but I confidently predict you'll love the DL-S1. With a wide-band SUT or the like to boost that delicate signal, it's a great distillation of the Denon sound. I run a few Denon carts now - a Zu 103r, a 103D that I recently had retipped, and a DL-S1 that I bought 5 months ago. It's not as full-sounding as the 103r, but it's more refined, particularly in the treble, where the 103 had a bit of tendency to sound a bit ragged or distorted, no matter what I tried with its setup. Maybe the S1 isn't quite as "downtown" sounding as the 103, but it's definitely a more sophisticated older brother. The 103D is a great cartridge too, BTW - I wish Denon would put it back into production, but I doubt they will. I've read rumors that the S1 is scheduled to be discontinued, which is a shame, if true.

As far as bass goes, the S1 isn't as fulsome subjectively as the lower-range 103, but it is certainly better defined and tauter. I don't think you'll be disappointed with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

You might end up with one yourself, Andy, as an upgrade over your DL-103 :)

Marco.

---

Possibly mate, but l am really enjoying my DL103, in my, plus l am a bit nervous that l will lose the boogie factor l am getting, l will most certainly in the near future upgrade the cartridge, but like the musicality l have at the moment.

Hi Trey,

Nice to see you popping in again and thanks for your input, which is much appreciated :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thankyoumisterman

I haven't replied on this board in a loooong time...but I confidently predict you'll love the DL-S1. With a wide-band SUT or the like to boost that delicate signal, it's a great distillation of the Denon sound.

---

That's exactly what I suspected and was hoping for! What you describe with the following is also spot on, in terms of what I thought would be the case:

Quote:

---

It's not as full-sounding as the 103r, but it's more refined, particularly in the treble, where the 103 had a bit of tendency to sound a bit ragged or distorted, no matter what I tried with its setup. Maybe the S1 isn't quite as "downtown" sounding as the 103, but it's definitely a more sophisticated older brother.

<Snip>

As far as bass goes, the S1 isn't as fulsome subjectively as the lower-range 103, but it is certainly better defined and tauter.

---

With having very large and efficient speakers, featuring 15" Tannoy DCs, driven by a powerful push-pull valve amp, and a system full of components that produce a weighty and 'purposeful' sound, there is no lack of bass, so if the DL-S1 is a little leaner sounding in that area, it won't be perceived as a negative. Therefore, coupled with its undoubted refinement, the Denon will offer a slightly different style of presentation than I'm used to from my SPU - and one which I'm very much looking forward to hearing.

Quote:

---

I've read rumors that the S1 is scheduled to be discontinued, which is a shame, if true. I don't think you'll be disappointed with it.

---

I've also heard that. It’s one of the reasons why I nabbed one now whilst the price was good and they're still available. Clearly these are specialist items. Apparently, Denon produce them in very small batches on a production run, and then supply them to selected outlets. Once those are sold, there's a long waiting list for the next batch to be produced.

I suspect that the limited demand for the DL-S1, compared with their more mainstream designs, is making it more and more costly/difficult for Denon to facilitate their production. Therefore, once the one I'm waiting for arrives, and I express my thoughts on it, if anyone likes my description of how it sounds, and feels that they have a suitable system with which to optimise it, my advice would be to snap one up while you can, as it's destined to go the way of the 103SA!

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tarzan

Possibly mate, but l am really enjoying my DL103, in my, plus l am a bit nervous that l will lose the boogie factor l am getting, l will most certainly in the near future upgrade the cartridge, but like the musicality l have at the moment.

---

No worries, dude - I totally understand. I'm just pleased that the 103 hit the spot! Told you it would, didn't I? ;)

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

No worries, dude - I totally understand. I'm just pleased that the 103 hit the spot! Told you it would, didn't I? ;)

Marco.

---

Not in an SME V you said:ner:, l did wonder about this myself, especially using the Gyrodec and it's suspension, but the Gyro/SME V/Denon DL103, bops along nicely! l am just getting the hang of the deck and do concede a better cartridge is the way to go, by the wayl Al brought round his SUT purchased from you and we had a brief play with it, very nice piece of kit!

Quote:

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Not in an SME V you said

---

And Marco would be right ;) It works in an SME but the SME is no where optimal for the 103 it's about 12~15g short on mass...been there, got the T shirt etc... Oh, and this was on a Gyro SE / Orbe platter and DC/NC motor combo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tarzan

Not in an SME V you said:ner:, l did wonder about this myself, especially using the Gyrodec and it's suspension, but the Gyro/SME V/Denon DL103, bops along nicely! l am just getting the hang of the deck and do concede a better cartridge is the way to go, by the wayl Al brought round his SUT purchased from you and we had a brief play with it, very nice piece of kit!

---

Cool - I'm glad it works. I agonised for ages over selling it, as I really liked what it did in my system. However, the PH head amp was just that bit better overall, and so the ST-80SE was simply not being used as much as it should. Therefore, I decided to let it go and allow someone else to enjoy it.

I'm glad it ended up with Al, because after having heard his system at Scalford, I thought it would gel with the rest of his kit and hit the spot nicely. I couldn't believe he was bypassing the superb, hard-wired valve phono stage in his Croft, in order to hook up a decent (but no more than average) external MC stage!! :doh:

Talk about doing things 'arse about face'.... :D

The thing is too, the Croft MM phono stage is eminently tweakable, so with some judicious mods (or even just by fitting better valves), he could turn it into something rather special, which when used in conjunction with the ST-80SE, will produce stunning sounding music. Therefore, he's got a whole world of fun ahead of him! :eyebrows:

As for the DL-103, it will work reasonably well on your SME V, but as Neal correctly states, it won't be anywhere near optimised. If you want to do that, swap your V for a Series M2, and add some extra mass to the headshell. Honestly, you'll be stunned at the results it achieves with your 103, and you can spend the change you get on more music!

:trust:

Marco.

Returning to the DL-S1, I found this YouTube video, which within the limitations of the accompanying system, the dubious taste in music and the rather 'broken vehicle' of listening via the Internet, shows some promise:





Marco.

There's not much "limitation" where that turntable and arm are concerned, I reckon!

:eek:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Returning to the DL-S1, I found this YouTube video, which within the limitations of the accompanying system, the dubious taste in music and the rather 'broken vehicle' of listening via the Internet, shows some promise:










Marco.

---

l have a Della Reese LP, that l tried to offload on AudioAl, even he knocked that one back.:lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beobloke

There's not much "limitation" where that turntable and arm are concerned, I reckon!

:eek:

---

Why you say so, mansab? Which T/T and arm is it, incidentally? :)

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tarzan

l have a Della Reese LP, that l tried to offload on AudioAl, even he knocked that one back.:lol:

---

Nothing wrong with Della ;)

http://youtu.be/ycxqCOVEV9o

That's a much better song, Simon! Interesting T/T and arm... Any idea what it is? :)

Marco.

Just purloined these rather excellent (and hard to obtain) AT headshell leads, which will replace the el-cheapo ones supplied with the following headshell:


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/811/ierx.jpg


Some info from the manufacturer:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Audio Technica

The Quattro are a set of headshell leads made with a balanced mix of four types of gold clad +7 N-OFC + PCOCC + OFC, the leads are crimped with 24K gold-plated chip lead, the Quattro hybrid conductor has 12 strands with a diameter of 0.18mm. This construction gives a quiet and gentle tone with a sense of transparency to the sound.

---

Those will be used with my NOS AT MG-10 magnesium headshell (along with the Denon DL-S1):


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/69/jms4.jpg



http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/23/yidx.jpg


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/845/d6d1.jpg


Above pics are of the actual headshell I bought from ebay. As you can see, it's mint - and it only cost me $30 (including shipping) from the States! They normally cost $69.00, plus shipping, from Audiocubes: http://www.audiocubes2.com/product_i...roducts_id/481

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Marco.