High or low-mass record weights/clamps: which is best?

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We have analysis paralysis here. Let the ears decide. Try both and whichever sounds better becomes the preferred option. Specs are great if you're measuring ALL the pertinent parameters; maybe there's more going on than just rumble. It could be that extra mass has unforeseen benefits and that an important metric has been overlooked.

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Exactly! If I like what I'm hearing from a system, and have assessed the efficacy of something (such as a record weight), using my own ears and judgement, I couldn't give a flying fook what measurements say to the contrary, particularly when they're obviously NOT telling the full story!!!

Measuring anything else but ALL pertinent parameters, when assessing something, is simply a recipe for a flawed analysis.

Marco.

Marco, do you know how much your record weight weighs - if not, could you weigh it for me please (kitchen scales) - thanks :).

358g, dude.

How did you get on with the recordings, btw? PM me your findings :)

Marco.

Cool, thanks - that's actually pretty light, I thought it would be a lot heavier. Have you tried a heavier one? If so, what did you find? On reflection, I think that I should have asked this question earlier as it seems we were rather arguing over nothing, as I assumed that 'heavy' meant more like a kilogramme.

Got on well with the recordings - the biggest issue was that the Internet has been down at my house most of the day and I needed it to check something - will PM (or email) you tomorrow with the details and my recordings.

Hi Mark,

Yup, I know that's pretty light. So far, I've not found a heavy record weight that benefits the SL-1200/1210 (all have sounded notably worse), although Martin likes the Stillpoints. I will compare it with the Bruil (what I'm currently using) next time I'm at his place, and will report the results.

I think the confusion has arisen in my stating that I've heard good results with high-mass record weights (500g+) on vintage T/Ts, such as Thorens TD124s, Goldring G99s, Garrard 401s, etc, so they *can* work well in certain applications.

Marco.

P.S No worries about the recordings - cool :)

Yeah - I measured it today and the one I am using has an effective mass of 750g.

Whoa! Although, like you said before, it doesn't behave like a high-mass weight...

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Whoa! Although, like you said before, it doesn't behave like a high-mass weight...

Marco.

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"Effective" mass...

Yeah, exactly :)

Marco.

Yes, that's right - it loads the record label with 750g but only actually weighs 79g.

I'll measure one of my previous designs tomorrow.

Blimey Mark that's nearly 10:1

That's a veritable black hole of increased gravitational force.

I can't know but I am expecting that internally it's more thoroughly engineered Clearaudio Clever Clamp sort of arrangement. I've always meant to try one of these but never got around to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RZ1_NtWvJE

That looks interesting. Is it not limited in that it can only apply as much force as can be created by the downward flexion of the record into the recess. I assume the tabs on the inside flex upward to provide a resistive force against the spindle when it is pressed into place. But with the tabs effectively going into the spindle perpendicular to the record surface how much downwards force can they transmit?

It looks clever in that it no doubt requires quite a pull to remove it, but how much downwards force can it impart. It's really no different to the star-fangled nut used in the headset of my mountain bike forks- the difference is, that requires loading up with a allen key to provide any downwards pull.

Functionally that seems to do what the Michel clamp does through a different mechanism. Mark's is different again.

I think you have to twist it to remove it - will make one and investigate.

I have a Souther Clever Clamp which in use, even on my Heybrook TT's.
I like what it does to the sound most of the time, doesn't load the bearing and applies a moderate amount of pressure when usen with a flexible record mat, like a linn felt mat.

It is sold by Clearaudio, but is actually labeled Souther.

Regards Mike
Ps it does not require twisting to mount/unmount.

Hmm...today I made myself one of those Souther clamps (laser cut acrylic) and it basically just uses friction to grip the spindle - so the pressure it is capable of exerting depends on the compliance of the four plastic fingers. It is a very low mass design though.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h9...k_2006/1-7.jpg

It doesn't really apply much pressure though; although it does grip the spindle quite firmly.

Now that looks proper funky. Can't say i'm surprised it doesn't actually provide any useful downwards force though.

Yup, no doubt Funky, with a capital 'F'! How useful is it, though? :)

Marco.

useful to prove the concept doesn't actually provide clamping force like a weight or Marks new clamp does.

Yeah, it works just like the Souther/Clearaudio clamp - but really this design is about gripping the record spindle and an O-ring would do that. The only direct pressure it applies is that which you press it on to the record with - on my non-compliant mat there is a definite limit to how firmly it can press on to the record. This is the second one I made - as Simon says, I only made it so see how effective the concept is (I've posted the picture cos it does look quite cool I think :)).

Logically, a record clamp can't damp the whole record, so you have to accept that any damping will be partial at best.

Also, I can picture too much mass actually pushing the centre of the record down enough to cause the outer part of the record to lift off the platter mat to a degree. And yes, I know there are outer edge mass rings available which may control this.

I'd say what is required is sufficient weight/damping to the record at the interface with the record label without putting undue and undesirable extra load on the turntable main bearing.

I would partially agree, you certainly don't want to load the bearing too much; but you would be hard pressed (no pun intended) to lift the edge of a record, even with a very heavy weight. I would also say that, although many clamp manufacturers cite damping properties for their clamps, the actual damping offered is minimal at best. The largest difference is how the clamp/weight causes the record to interact with the platter or mat.

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Originally Posted by YNWaN

The largest difference is how the clamp/weight causes the record to interact with the platter or mat.

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Spot on, in my view.

In an ideal world records would all be 25mm thick, perfectly flat and we wouldn't need a full platter. Sadly though they are all different.

It's hard to believe the Clever Clamp can exert a lot of pressure, which the experiment validates, maybe it helps though in some situations. I remember The Pig from the 80s, a rubber to be slipped over the shaft.....it wasn't great and it better not to use it. :eyebrows:

Having revisited using a TT weight, I've tried my heavier weight on the 301 with a rubber mat and the Salvation with Mark's nipple mat and the Resomat. All mats improve with the weight and as Simon infers this is quite record dependent.
The already excellent nipple mat derives the greatest level of benefit. The difference between the improvement in sound is most easily heard in the bass. All mats improve in the bass but the nipple mat most of all - I expect this is due to said mat having the least interface with the record and the weight therefore is able to make the biggest difference in coupling mat to record.

Do you think the improvement is due to the record coupling with the mat, or the record weight being used as an energy sink for the products of tracing noise bouncing around inside the vinyl itself? I wonder which it is and if a clamp made of vinyl might not provide the best impedance match of all...

Jeez..maybe some day santa my deliver a set of earholes :D

Haven't a clue what you are on about Andre!

Never really had the chance to play records without a clamp myself
used a oracle for over 25years Would not play a lp without the screw record clamp fitted to the raised platter mat

Recently playing about and testing various vinyl products with my 3 other decks
clamps , weights , platter mats , platter rings & phono stages , SUTs , phono cables

Will be posting my thoughts in due course , and offering a very wide selection for AOS guys to try out with your own decks

Oracle themselves have been through quite a number of mat systems over the years - sonically very different solutions too.

really meant with a oracle you can,t play records without using the screwed record clamp , part of the design , very good with warped records
used the supplied mat with the delphi , had it for 30years now design classic
Also used a acoustic signature this used a huge screw clamp as well

Hmm... I'm not a fan of the concave platter approach.

Why is that, Mark? Out of pure interest.

bought a oracle when they came out , still have it after 30years
never missed a beat since the 80s , only the led on the front failed
delphi Mk1 , sumiko MDC800 the arm , EMT tsd
always found the concave mat & clamp worked great
Still always gets the same response
" Thats lovely what the fuck is it "

I have always love the Thorens stabilizer and used one for 8 years.

I've recently added an Oyaide MJ-12 TT mat & was resigned to having to replace my Standard spec Michell clamp for my Gyro s.e.

This was due to the now shortened exposed spindle length caused by adding the Oyaide. I've found a neat fix though for any facing a similar situation. If you add a suitably sized O' ring to the clamps underside & pass the central locking "Pawl" thingummybob through it it'll cope nicely with a shortened spindle as it "Pre Loads" the locking element of the clamp & it's already biting nicely as you slip it onto the spindle'

I'm actually finding that as a clamping arrangement it is now working far more nicely than it ever did in standard trim with just the Gyro platter. I've also found with a couple of Albums with fairly severe warps that these have effectively been ironed out. I never got close to this with the straight platter despite much experimentation with foam rings & various placement options using the supplied felt washer.