Confronting your own realities...

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Originally Posted by Marco

I've always wondered about how we as hi-fi enthusiasts or audiophiles (choose whichever you prefer) see ourselves. Ultimately, it should always be about music and good sound, and not the equipment for the equipment's sake. Trouble is, some people are more sincere about this than others and genuinely achieve that aim, whereas others might think they're sincere but are actually just kidding themselves on ;)

For example, I find *some*, and I stress SOME, so as not to upset everyone in that category, more obsessive D.I.Y-ers like that - they might think they're in it for the love of music, but often with their equipment they spend more time with the hood open fiddling and farting around, tweaking this and that, than sitting down listening to and enjoying the music it makes. I'd love to know the ratio of tweaking-to-music listening with some of these guys. However, if that's what 'does it' for them then fine; it's their money and their life, so good luck to them, but that definitely isn't for me.

It's one of the reasons why I've never embraced D.I.Y audio to any great degree. Yes it has many very valuable benefits, and I understand why people enjoy it, but quite simply aside from my unquestionable 'hamfistedness' with a soldering iron, the temptation for constantly fiddling is just too great, and thus also the potential for taking your eye off the ball as to what it's meant to be about is even greater: enjoying recorded music in the home to the highest standard of fidelity... It's a bit like the chap you see next door who spends the greatest proportion of his time underneath the bonnet of his car than in the driving seat... What are these guys really - simply car mechanics enthusiasts or genuine car driving enthusiasts? The same parallels can be drawn I feel with hi-fi and music amongst audiophiles and hi-fi D.I.Y-ers.

The other thing I would ask you to consider is this:

How genuinely confident (and I stress the word) are you about your beliefs in hi-fi? Are you a staunchly objectivist testing and measurements boffin or an equally staunch subjectivist who trusts his or her ears implicitly - and most importantly given the thread title, do you become uncomfortable and defensive when someone of the opposite mindset robustly challenges your (often) ingrained beliefs and prejudices, or are you genuinely open-minded and always receptive to new ideas and willing to embrace change?

And here's the clincher... Would you be willing to admit that you may have made some mistakes in arriving at your current beliefs and so realise that they perhaps need some updating or reassessing?

Let's expose and confront our own realities. How do you honestly see yourself in this regard? Hence the title, let's do some introspection of our genuine hi-fi and music loving motives - and be as honest as possible! :)

My belief is that in hi-fi some people are too stuck in their ways and also that others are kidding themselves on that music is more important than collecting or fiddling with the boxes. Discuss...

Marco.

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Marco

I'd have thought that a DIY'er is someone who is continually confronting their own realities re audio, both from a cost and sound reproduction perspective.

If something doesn't sound right then don't we all experiment be it cable swapping, tube rolling or wholesale system swapping.
Some do however try to reach other peoples idea of audio nirvana rather than their own, hence the never ending tweaking, maybe that's due to insecurity or inquisitiveness.

I guess to confront your own reality re audio, you have to be a realistic individual not just in relation to hi-fi, as my disposable income has somewhat disappeared my other half's brutal reassessment of my hi-fi aspirations, made me realise that whether I like it or not, less will have to be more.

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Originally Posted by shuggz

I guess to confront your own reality re audio, you have to be a realistic individual not just in relation to hi-fi, as my disposable income has somewhat disappeared my other half's brutal reassessment of my hi-fi aspirations, made me realise that whether I like it or not, less will have to be more.

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My guiding principle.

I build stuff to use. Sometimes it last a few months, sometimes a couple of years. Depending on how successful the end result.

I often tweak in between.

I spend more time listening than tweaking.

Sometimes when in tweaking mood, i'm guilty of playing the same few CDs over and over, because i know them well and it helps me to get things as i want them. Consequently i don't get get to buy a lot of new material.

Given more time and money, i would probably spend more time building stuff.
I love music, i think. But the real fascination comes from completing a project and getting it working. As a relative newbie to DIY electronics
, i don't think the novelty has worn off yet.
The learning and satisfaction involved overides any other factor, at the moment.

I've been building speakers for over thirty years and often keep them for a long time, if they turn out to be good. With the occasional tweak of course.

So for me it's all down to circumstances, time, money and being in the mood for doing something.

I've forgotten what the question was now.:)

Oh yes, mistakes?

Yeah i made loads.

Marco,

I have to confess that the 'Dad's radiogram special' (copyright P.Jeffery@2006) is not of my own making, it belongs to a kindred spirit who's sheer insight-fullness into life, far exceeds my own by a large margin!
Though I will shed a little light on the true definition of such an apt phrase for the UK.

The Concise Oxford English dictionary extraction for:-

Dad's radiogram special

A description of sound style relating to majority UK sonic tastes spanning the last 40 years of musical reproduction.

See:- 'Safe', 'Boring', 'Un-involving', 'Uninspiring' (at best!), 'Warm' (overly so), 'Rolled off', 'over blown wobbly bass with piss poor extension and zero note intimation of any description' (note very little bass below 50hz), 'Cloying' (in various degrees), serious loss of detail retrieval, exaggerated and false sound staging, the ability to induce coma like status within 20 minutes of switch on, 'Masterfully' hoodwinking the listening into believing it is producing a 'realistic sound'

Note:- The above is not just the sole reverse of some thermionic amplification, solid state is more than capable of producing such truly uninspiring sonic delights that will stir the soul to terminal non positive reality implosion due to negative musical stimulation high on the 'Blunt' Scale

Note ii :-

All 'Dad's radiogram special' sound is measured in Blunts .
It was named after an infamous self styled 'musician' who in the late 2000's musical (loose term when applied to aforementioned) output managed to conjure up such 'resentment, hatred, anger and terminal despondency at the merest utterance of his name.


Note iii :-

The Blunt Factor (ISO9003 institute of metric studies and standards Paris 2003)

Radio edit version ;-)

Blunt factor 1 = Mild sedation, limited involvement, passable self esteem needing minor reassurance from time to time. Though in a redeemable position



Blunt Factor 5 = Bordering on 'no road back' drifting in and out of consciousness during listening sessions, low self esteem, constant need for self affirmation and visits to friends and Hifi shops to help self justification of their musical path.



Blunt Factor 10 - Uber extreme case, absolutely no redemption or escape, soul is condemned and lost to wander the annals of time and space without method of returning to reality and musical satisfaction. (Halcrow owners you know the gravity of the situation)



An example that was cited to me:-

A Primare front end, Sugden amplification, Proac speakers this would have a Blunt factor of 1-3 depending on room and musical tastes.
Subject only mildly effected, a short dose of medication over a 3 month period could reclaim this person's soul.

I hope this has helped you glean an insight into the Dad's radiogram special
All of the above is purely fictitious and has no bearing on any real person (s) living, known or dead.

:lolsign: I might put that as a sticky somewhere!

Meanwhile, putting one's 'serious head' on again for a moment... I would like people to think about this question in particular and offer their views:

How comfortable are you when people challenge your audio beliefs or system building methodologies, particularly when you think the challenger has a valid point and has exposed some flaws or 'loopholes' in them? Would you humbly admit it and then reassess your beliefs accordingly or remain stubbornly defensive of them regardless?

Have a go at it.

Cheers :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

How comfortable are you when people challenge your audio beliefs or system building methodologies, particularly when you think the challenger has a valid point and has exposed some flaws or 'loopholes' in them? Would you humbly admit it and then reassess your beliefs accordingly or remain stubbornly defensive of them regardless?

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Sometime it is better to keep quiet, and just let people listen to your system in order to make their mind up for themsleves. I am not worried if X is better than A. I am worried if X sounds better in my set up than A does. How A sounds in someone else's set up is not for me to argue with them, unless I have the same set up situated in the same environment.

To give an example: My NS1000M is flat against the wall, 40cm from the floor, and only 1.5m apart. Sounds like lunacy, but once you hear them in that position it all makes sense. I know people who have them a 1ft or more from the wall and several meters apart, just to get a similar result.

STan

I feel the DIY aspect that's been mentioned is just one example. Should we really be addressing overall hi-fi obsessive behaviour? I believe this is more about OCD. I've been there with constant capacitor swapping, trying loads of plinth options for my deck, many arm mounting methods. Is this R&D or OCD?

I happen to enjoy building valve-based electronics and enjoy understanding what aspects of design most strongly influences performance. The OCD side of my DIY exploits has now firmly taken a back seat for 2 mains reasons:

1) I answered many of the questions I had

2) I decided to get more of a life (not true rally, work took over....)

OCD does not however apply just to DIY. Hoping and trying not to offend........how about someone who is admirably focused on getting a 1210 to perform an audiophile (or whatever term you prefer) job with mods to power supply, feet, arm, spindle etc and then placing the deck on an amazing number of Mana-style stands? This may not be DIY but viewed by people who just pop a CD on or listen to iPods such behaviour will be seen as OCD. They might say, "for heavens sake, just something that works in the first place!".

Also, how do we differentiate between our having OCD or simply being Nerdy?

Lights blue touchpaper and retires........

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Originally Posted by Marco

:lolsign: I might put that as a sticky somewhere!

Meanwhile, putting one's 'serious head' on again for a moment... I would like people to think about this question in particular and offer their views:

How comfortable are you when people challenge your audio beliefs or system building methodologies, particularly when you think the challenger has a valid point and has exposed some flaws or 'loopholes' in them? Would you humbly admit it and then reassess your beliefs accordingly or remain stubbornly defensive of them regardless?

Have a go at it.

Cheers :)

Marco.

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As everything has flaws my answer is I would be exceedingly comfortable with any advice, however whether you can act on that advice is another matter.

Hi Clive,

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I feel the DIY aspect that's been mentioned is just one example. Should we really be addressing overall hi-fi obsessive behaviour? I believe this is more about OCD. I've been there with constant capacitor swapping, trying loads of plinth options for my deck, many arm mounting methods. Is this R&D or OCD?

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With you (having met you and saw your set-up) I'd say it was definitely the former.

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I happen to enjoy building valve-based electronics and enjoy understanding what aspects of design most strongly influences performance. The OCD side of my DIY exploits has now firmly taken a back seat for 2 mains reasons:

1) I answered many of the questions I had

2) I decided to get more of a life (not true rally, work took over....)

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That's excellent because it demonstrates both an enquiring mind, which is healthy, and also the ability of knowing when to stop at the point when enough information has been learned for now and then simply enjoy the results obtained, which is also healthy. OCD comes in, I feel, when the enquiring mind overrules one's ability to prioritise the latter over the former.

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OCD does not however apply just to DIY.

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Indeed not - far from it; I was merely giving what I considered as a valid example. I have met people who I think fit the category I have described perfectly - where, to put it as politely as possible, it's obvious that any love they have of music firmly takes a back seat to the obsession they have for fiddling, and incidentally none of them are members here ;)

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how about someone who is admirably focused on getting a 1210 to perform an audiophile (or whatever term you prefer) job with mods to power supply, feet, arm, spindle etc and then placing the deck on an amazing number of Mana-style stands? This may not be DIY but viewed by people who just pop a CD on or listen to iPods such behaviour will be seen as OCD. They might say, "for heavens sake, just something that works in the first place!".

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Hahahaha... I was waiting for that one and am surprised that it hasn't come sooner! :eyebrows:

You're quite right of course, but like you Clive, as I mentioned above, I know when to stop at any given time and simply sit back and enjoy the results. The fact is that I spend way more time (some 5-6 hours per day on average) listening to music than I do any fiddling with my 1210 or anything else in my system.

Sure, if something comes up which I feel might upgrade any part of my system I'll look into it and audition it if necessary, then implement it if I consider that it passes the SPPV test, but once done, I simply relax back into music listening mode, enjoy the sonic benefits I've achieved, worrying not about anything else.

The trick is to be able to switch in and out of analytical mode as the occasion demands, and when listening to music on your system never obsess about any minor faults that are detected. If your system is good enough it will always showcase the music first and foremost, and not the faults, thus allowing your ears and mind to relax and always be satisfied with the presentation. I can do this relatively easily.

As for the Mana stands, on face of it, I can quite understand how my rather 'over-the-top' collection could be seen as 'obsessive', however the truth of the matter is, and I'm being completely honest here, I haven't touched them or done anything with them since about 2 years ago when I sold most of my original stands and had clones made, which I obviously had to set-up. Otherwise, they just sit there and do their job (very effectively) and I reap the sonic rewards. Basically, they're just a 'given' and a permanent fixture that I don't even think about now.

If I were truly obsessive in that respect you'd have read about me experimenting with different stands and chopping and changing them accordingly. I've had Mana supports now since 2001, which is testament to their effectiveness and also how satisfied I am with them.

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Also, how do we differentiate between our having OCD or simply being Nerdy?

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That's a difficult one. We're all "hi-fi nerds" in some way or another, however I guess that the difference is some nerds are nerdy all the time and others are only nerdy when they need to be! ;)

Marco.

Marco,audio beliefs,system building or/and way of listening (positioning etc) is something very personal.Stan gave you an example with his NS-1000.Let me give you a similar one only more extreme.I own ProAc Response 4s and i have them 24cm from the rear wall.
Why? Because whenever i move them forward,inside the room,i don't like the way they sound.Too threadbare and thin sounding for my taste. As for your question,if i think someone has a true valid point,i would reassess my beliefs,as-long-as i do not have to pay extra money to experiment or his/her beliefs,no matter how true or valid they are,don't involve additional hassle.Besides,who'se to stop me from going back to the way i used to do things ?

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As everything has flaws my answer is I would be exceedingly comfortable with any advice, however whether you can act on that advice is another matter.

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Same here. The only considerations I have for acting on any advice which I consider to be good and potentially of benefit to my system are:

1) Does it (whatever it may be) offer high SPPV?

2) Can I afford it?

3) Can I implement it fairly quickly and easily?

4) Is it safe?

Anything else is of secondary importance, including if necessary having to revisit and reassess something that I had previously considered as unsuitable. I'm not proud, blinkered, nor easily embarrassed, and therefore I don't have a problem admitting I'm wrong or have made mistakes.

Basically, I remain always open-minded with hi-fi and follow no forms of absolutism. This I feel is a healthy state of mind to have, rather than being the opposite.

Marco.

interesting points raised..
my view( as a DIYer) is the following.. we are all on a road somewhere with our kit, it may be one of being happy with what you've got and parking up.. or moving forwards with slight or sometimes major improvements via trial and error and or getting out and listening to what is about..
the practical guy will always look at things from a diffent perspective to the less practical types, he has the advantage he does not have to buy.. he can make as well..and the options are greater. when one knows the really good componets from the past that can be incorporated.

I for one have been both routes, as most diyer's have,
i have had the experence of buying a 3k valve amp, only to find, when i was brave enought to make my 1st valve amp, that 3k se amp sounded like the Tv in comparison to what i just made..

I then spent 5 or 6 yers thinking hi fi did not get any better than my large backloaded horns and px4 amp.. how wrong was I..
one needs to get out to listen and compare ...

I make a point (like others) to hear lots of kit,
i have heard £50k systems that just start to sound realistic..
but at this point, my diy efforts, as a sytem, continue to be (in my view) as good as i've heard.. not perfect though... i do keep looking, listening, tweeking and challenging myself...

i build new amps and play about because i can, i have lots of bits for doing that, and sometimes.. i get an improvement.. so my everyday systems then change to include that

I do hear some good components that i would like to buy.. or emulate via diy... but i will not buy now with out being sure..

i also get a pleasure out of hearing some really good sounds from some very reasonable, yet 'different' kit, scotmoose's speaker designs, coupled with some of nelson pass's low wattage amps are some very good sound's for the low costs involved.. you need to make it all of course.. or if are lucky enough to get your hands on pre built..

me, i spend alot of money on my hi fi systems and valves etc,
I also spend a fair time listening to my music, 10-15 hours a week i would say..
and the best bit for me.. is the marvel at the sound i'm getting on kit i have made.. and the wonder of what to make next, to further improve things, I usually have all the parts needed, its just the time and the drive to get on with it..
my measure of good kit is the amount of music sounds poor, less is best..
and every type of music should sound right.


steve

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Originally Posted by Marco

Same here. The only considerations I have for acting on any advice which I consider to be good and potentially of benefit to my system are:

1) Does it (whatever it may be) offer high SPPV?

2) Can I afford it?

3) Can I implement it fairly quickly and easily?

4) Is it safe?

Anything else is of secondary importance, including if necessary having to revisit and reassess something that I had previously considered as unsuitable. I'm not proud, blinkered, nor easily embarrassed, and therefore I don't have a problem admitting I'm wrong or having made mistakes.

Basically, I remain always open-minded with hi-fi and follow no forms of absolutism. This I feel is a healthy state of mind to have, rather than being the opposite.

Marco.

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I'd also add as a consideration WAF, she packs a mean punch :o

Indeed. I consider myself fortunate though not to have that problem. I've have a wife, but she's probably got more problem accepting me than the hi-fi! :lolsign:

Marco.

Interesting points relating to WAF, recently I had a client who remarked 'Your wife's very tolerate of your listening levels', 'Mine would have thrown a turbo wobbler by now'
At very modest volume levels?
Just how much of an issue is the woman in your hifi selection?
Is it at the same level if you have a separate room or area for your music?
If you have a shared room how much compromise do you make?
What is the biggest consideration, the amount of equipment, the looks of it, or just what she considers the 'faff factor'

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Originally Posted by Mr. C

Interesting points relating to WAF, recently I had a client who remarked 'Your wife's very tolerate of your listening levels', 'Mine would have thrown a turbo wobbler by now'
At very modest volume levels?
Just how much of an issue is the woman in your hifi selection?
Is it at the same level if you have a separate room or area for your music?
If you have a shared room how much compromise do you make?
What is the biggest consideration, the amount of equipment, the looks of it, or just what she considers the 'faff factor'

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That is an excellent point Mr. C. I know I am lucky as I live alone and can do what I like, but even so I think lots of people need to grow a pair and tell the mrs what is what. I bet they get all the say on a new kitchen or bathroom after all.

Great questions, Tony! I shall sit back and observe with interest :eyebrows:

Whilst appeciating people's different circumstances and not making references to anyone in particular, I think there are far too many hen-pecked husbands and partners out there! ;)

The question to answer here is who wears the pants in your household - her or you? Maybe you're more partial to her dress? :lol:

WAF is largely a British thing, I feel, as I know from experience that the mentality of people in that respect in other areas of Europe is generally somewhat different.

Marco.

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Originally Posted by aquapiranha

That is an excellent point Mr. C. I know I am lucky as I live alone and can do what I like, but even so I think lots of people need to grow a pair and tell the mrs what is what. I bet they get all the say on a new kitchen or bathroom after all.

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Too bloody right, Steve. It's a particular bugbear of mine.

It's quite simple: if you pay half the rent or the mortgage then you're entitled to make half the decisions in the house - end of!!

We (as in 'one' - not me) pander too much to the wants of our women folk here in the UK - the majority of men are weak-willed in that respect; anything for a quiet life and all that - bollocks! Of course one must be considerate, but exactly how far do you take it before you end up being nothing more than a glorified puppet?

Come on, all joking aside, let's think about this one seriously, guys!

Marco.

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Originally Posted by aquapiranha

That is an excellent point Mr. C. I know I am lucky as I live alone and can do what I like, but even so I think lots of people need to grow a pair and tell the mrs what is what. I bet they get all the say on a new kitchen or bathroom after all.

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It's all about compromise and no she doesn't get all the say on bathrooms or kitchens.

Well I have my own room so :ner: :ner: Mrs B grumps about my kit, but when it comes to it I get my way heh heh... :)

I have my own room too but my teenage kids complain that late at night they can hear the bass. I'm in the cellar, they are on the 2nd floor. (4 floors in total)

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It's all about compromise and no she doesn't get all the say on bathrooms or kitchens.

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Shuggz, I agree totally, and this question isn't directed at you in particular, but isn't it often the case that, as far as the hi-fi is concerned, wifes makes far less compromises than husbands do in the areas which matter most to their wives?

It's certainly what I've witnessed most over the years in other people's lives. I'd like to know why? IMO, decision making should be a 50-50 split across the board, providing both people are contributing equally to the costs and running of the house, not one person dictating to the other where the hi-fi should go and what it should consist of - no offence.

Compromise in a relationship is a two-way street, not a 'Give Way to oncoming traffic' when your wife returns home from shoe shopping with more carrier bags than she can safely manage through the door! :lolsign:

Marco.

These are genuine questions, and are not loaded in any way.
Marco, on your point of the English issue of er indoors has a lot of the clout in the house hold, I would beg to differ going on the experiences we haver had with our European clients, seems Europe is not much different in that respect.
Another question here from the group, this is not meant in any way to be insulating or wise.
Would you mind listing your age please, I'll start Mr .C is 42.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Shuggz, I agree totally, and this question isn't directed at you in particular, but isn't it often the case that, as far as the hi-fi is concerned, wifes makes far less compromises than husbands do in the areas which matter most to their wives?

It's certainly what I've witnessed most over the years in other people's lives. I'd like to know why? IMO, decision making should be a 50-50 split across the board, providing both people are contributing equally to the costs and running of the house, not one person dictating to the other where the hi-fi should go and what it should consist of - no offence.

Compromise in a relationship is a two-way street, not a 'Give Way to oncoming traffic' when your wife returns home from shoe shopping with more carrier bags than she can safely manage through the door! :lolsign:

Marco.

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No offence taken, she's considerably more understanding than some I've met, one poor chap I know has had to loose 6k's worth of kit, for a mini all in one system, all to keep his Mrs happy. :steam:

Why does it happen, I guess some folk just want an easy life and not have to sleep with one eye open.

Moi is 43 :) D.O.B: 14th August 1965.

Oh, and I know where you're coming from Tony. I guess it boils down to what your particular experiences are. Mine are obviously rather different from yours, particularly when it comes to Italian men and women, where men, how shall I put it, are somewhat 'old-fashioned' when it comes to roles in marriages and relationships.

Trust me, I speak with much experience here, and not necessarily in terms of my own marriage ;)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by shuggz

No offence taken, she's considerably more understanding than some I've met, one poor chap I know has had to loose 6k's worth of kit, for a mini all in one system, all to keep his Mrs happy. :steam:

Why does it happen, I guess some folk just want an easy life and not have to sleep with one eye open.

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Jeez. I find the first bit very sad and the second bit very shocking!

Why do people marry these types of women in the first place, and most importantly, why do they sit back and become victims of that sort of behaviour?

I have a very close, loving, relationship with my wife, where we both see each other as equals. We've been happily married for 18 years. We decide everything together, in fact do most things together, but no-one is 'the boss'. We both respect each other too much for that. I'm sure that those here who know Del and I would vouch for that :)

That's the way it should always be, and for the life of me I can't see why anyone would settle for anything less, other than if it was to protect the interests of kids, but even that, IMO, isn't really a good enough reason to muddle through such an unhappy relationship unless the children concerned were very young.

Deep and thoughtful today? You betcha!

I'm sorry, but that poor chap you described above is just a mug. What I find most bizarre though is that WAF, certainly here in the UK, seems to be a universal 'given' - an established fact, almost, that is just tolerated and accepted, such that phrases in relation to hi-fi equipment as: "she wont let me", "I'm not allowed to", or "I must have such and such or she'll go mental", etc, have become almost the norm. How weird and more than slightly loopy... :scratch:

I gave up being bossed around like that when I was a kid. There are too many subservient little wallflowers around, I feel... :eyebrows:

Marco.

I'm struggling to see what age has to do with WAF compliance :) There are things like lack of space and money that might justifiably prohibit certain combinations of kit but if it's your passion and you're not spending the kid's college money then... well... every man needs his shed!

I have friends both young and old in healthy and longterm relationships that allow for obsessive collections and decent Hi-Fi... so age isn't a factor as far as I can see...

PS... Like Clive the only thing I have to watch is waking the kids up with the volume (I get the loft and they're below me :))

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Originally Posted by Marco

Jeez. I find the first bit very sad and the second bit very shocking!

Why do people marry these types of women in the first place, and most importantly, why do they sit back and become victims of that sort of behaviour?

I have a very close, loving, relationship with my wife, where we both see each other as equals. We've been happily married for 18 years. We decide everything together, in fact do most things together, but no-one is 'the boss'. We both respect each other too much for that. I'm sure that those here who know Del and I would vouch for that :)

That's the way it should always be, and for the life of me I can't see why anyone would settle for anything less, other than if it was to protect the interests of kids, but even that, IMO, isn't really a good enough reason to muddle through such an unhappy relationship unless the children concerned were very young.

Deep and thoughtful today? You betcha!

I'm sorry, but that poor chap you described above is just a mug. What I find most bizarre though is that WAF, certainly here in the UK, seems to be a universal 'given' - an established fact, almost, that is just tolerated and accepted, such that phrases in relation to hi-fi equipment as: "she wont let me", "I'm not allowed to", or "I must have such and such or she'll go mental", etc, have become almost the norm. How weird and more than slightly loopy... :scratch:

I gave up being bossed around like that when I was a kid. There are too many subservient little wallflowers around, I feel... :eyebrows:

Marco.

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Marco

Well I told him he was nuts, but he's besotted with her and apparently she makes up for control freakery in other ways :eyebrows:

I guess me and the Mrs get on because both of us are realistic enough to recognise our own frailties, plus we both believe that relationships are either parasitic or symbiotic, not romantic but true nonetheless.

Anyway my normal riposte to my other half when she questions my behaviour is ' there was only one perfect man in this world and we nailed him to a cross' the replies are always quite entertaining, like 'bugger off Beelzebub' :lolsign:

When I was in retail, right at the start. I was told I had to help move a system from a house to a new house. The customer was a woman (rare). I took the kit down to the new house. She led me to the room. " I want this set up to sound the best,carte blanch." I did as instructed and it sounded brilliant. Her husband came into the room looked at the position of the speakers and the thick heavy cables running across the floor. " You can't have that, those speakers there"he points at them and then the cables "And those there ......" She looks at him and says" Shut up dear, This is where its going, and thats that. And if you don't like it, then you will have to move your Motor Bike collection from the Garage and I'll have that instead" He slopped off ......:lolsign: Talk about role reversal.


When working in the brown goods trade a lady had been coming in and talking to me about TV's. She fancied a big 32 in Dolby Digital Toshiba 100 htz set and DVD player. She brought her husband and family in on a Saturday afternoon. Talk about bored he was not interested. I did my talk and she lost it with him. "why do we need that, lets go."he said. "This is for me" she said. She turned to me, apologized for her husband and bought the lot, on the spot.


This has happened only twice in 20 years. Maybe women are more choosy about what they get OCD about. This has usually a practical side (in their eyes). Looking good (shoes, clothes, handbags etc) and the appearance of the house. Nerdy Women are rare (why?), perhaps because they for the most part grow up and us(men), in many cases don't ? I wonder why that seems to be the case? Men do like their toys/interests more than women(that they let on). It may be that children become the focus for women and keeping up with the jones and audio just doesnt figure at all. Different priorities.

Anyway, I am truly blessed by my wife. She allows me to do what I want. She will ask " Do you really need it ?" every so often, but thats it. I don't smoke, don't drink and don't have any children. And audio is only one of many interests I have. Age 43.

Regards D S D L----Neil :)

Maybe its true
"Men are for Mars and woman from Venus";)

Some people want to create perfection some people just want to listen to perfection

I see the topic has drifted onto the Gary Irwin syndrome :lol: (not you Gary above.) WAF factor generally features very high on the list of priorities in the all-fur-coat-no-knickers households.

I'm fortunate in that my hi-fi/music hobby was already a part of me when I met my wife. Thus, me and hi-fi came as part of a combined package. Moreover, I'm a few years older than her and I guess I've made it clear I am rather set in my ways and not for changing. I'm fortunate again in that she accepts me for who I am.

She did get a bit upset when I bought the rather imposing Heco Celan 500 speakers in the house last summer but was less bothered a month later when they were replaced by the even bigger 700s :smoking:. She likes her music to have a certain palpable quality (she attends :rock: concerts on occasions) and I've explained to her that the laws of physics cannot be defeated.

I agree with Marco that those seeking "a quiet life" by rolling over and being ultra-accommodating are utter fools making rods for their own backs.:mental:

Relationships are being equal partners and making compromises not giving in all the time to keep her happy.

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plus we both believe that relationships are either parasitic or symbiotic

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I believe this too.

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I agree with Marco that those seeking "a quiet life" by rolling over and being ultra-accommodating are utter fools making rods for their own backs.

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It's a total nonsense, Steve - and that applies to both men and women in a relationship. Being a 'soft touch' gets you nowhere in life, as people will simply take advantage and walk all over you. You have to be strong-willed and confident in a relationship just as much as you are accommodating and willing to compromise. It's a matter of striking a healthy balance. This 'she who must be obeyed' nonsense, which harks back to the dark ages, should be completely erased from the male psyche.

My theory is that too many men getting married or involved in a relationship with women are simply looking for a replacement for their mothers, rather than an equal partner, so therefore become subservient to their wifes or partners in such a way as they would have done to their mothers as children. I think this is deeply sad and more than a little weird.

I've seen it happen all too often: married men, for example, being given 'pocket money' by their wifes, like kids, to spend (often from their own wages!!) while she takes complete control of the household finances, and so also makes all the financial decisions. Once this is allowed to happen it therefore follows that she is also allowed to make all the other major decisions, too! Another example of this bizarre, rather freakish, 'mother/child' relationship in marriages or partnerships is where women buy men all their clothes. I know of married men who are effectively 'dressed' by their wifes - what's all that about? :mental:

The excuse made is always that men don't have a clue in that respect and so it's better that women with their 'superior fashion sense' are allowed to exert their control here too - talk about lazy thinking! The question that begs to be asked is why they don't have a clue in the first place? What they need to do is get off their lazy backsides, think for themselves, and start shopping for clothes and developing a sense of fashion of their own like normal people have done since leaving childhood, otherwise this sort of lazy and submissive thinking only serves to further reinforce the risible and pathetic 'mothering' of men by women which causes the very problems we're discussing here.

The weak-willed and spineless slugs of the world, posing as men, should take a long hard look at themselves in the mirror, grow some 'cohonas', and start taking control of their lives, or forever be breast-fed like babies and treated as such, too... One only has to think of the hilarious sketch in Little Britain where the 'husband' wants some "bitty" - funny it may be, but also how true! :eyebrows:

Marco.

P.S Neil, nice tale - love it! :lol:

or forever be breast-fed like babies and treated as such, too...

Hang on guys some blokes actually want this and some know no other way.
Bare in mind that if they've been conditioned to be this way from an early age, then they won't have the mental capacity or the stones to change.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that because we're lucky enough to be in understanding relationships that this can be easily found, it's a jungle out there and sometimes it's better the devil you know than the one you don't.

At the end of the days I tell guys who moan about the missus to either leave, work it out by talking to her or just shut the f##k up and take their life in their hands, if you know what I mean. :eyebrows:

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Hang on guys some blokes actually want this and some know no other way.

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Shuggz, well all I can say is that it's a sad indicament of our society and there's something deeply disturbing and fundamentally wrong with how people are being raised by their parents if that's the case :mental:

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just shut the f##k up and take their life in their hands, if you know what I mean.

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Indeed - and frankly I'd like to see more of it happening, starting with men not being such wimps when it comes to what hi-fi is bought and where it's placed in the living room of their own home!! ;)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

The weak-willed and spineless slugs of the world, posing as men, should take a long hard look at themselves in the mirror, grow some 'cohonas', and start taking control of their lives, or forever be breast-fed like babies and treated as such, too... One only has to think of the hilarious sketch in Little Britain where the 'husband' wants some "bitty" - funny it may be, but also how true!

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Marco,

After spending far too much time studying Hifi show attendees (the words given a pass-out and she's thinks I am at kids football are heard too many times :-( ) and *others* I have to say, there is a LOT of truth in your above statement.
Picture the scene.

<Guy wants sex <> woman looking for guy <> Woman gives guy want he wants (after a small interlude involving time, food and a not insubstantial amount of currency)<> Guy feel Whoa hey! <>small courtship in sues<> Marriage flows <>as soon as ring is on finger<> life over<> woman turns into control freakette<> Guy sinks into subservient role for eternity >

Ok, that does not hold true for around 30% of the hitched population where it is an equal partnership and both enjoy each other's hobbies and life.
Either that or in the main hifi attracts these sorts of people, some times it scares me when I see them.
Just to put a counter point across, when we attended the Paris Hifi show last year, it was filled with everything that is *bad* about hifi in general, any outsiders looking in would have cringed, 55+ yo men (who are still under going a mid life crisis after 15 years) with pony tails and too tight fitting jeans, long coats, 'bobbing away' to trad jazz and some other weird sounds that redefined ' musical masturbation'
Geek's collecting as many leaflets and bags as they could carry, aloof owners of high end equipment slating various rooms, women that did attend looking forlorn, harassed and generally thoroughly pissed off.
Exhibitors looking jaded (not all) the atmosphere was not good (now this could have been any show in the UK as well to be fair)
If hifi wishes to truly survive and prosper, then it needs to take a good long look at its self in the mirror, and address EVERY issue before it goes forward, it need to be a TEAM effort from the consumers right up to the manufacturers.
Sorry about the rant, just need a break for coding some new pages for the website.

Tony,

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Picture the scene.

<Guy wants sex <> woman looking for guy <> Woman gives guy want he wants (after a small interlude involving time, food and a not insubstantial amount of currency)<> Guy feel Whoa hey! <>small courtship in sues<> Marriage flows <>as soon as ring is on finger<> life over<> woman turns into control freakette<> Guy sinks into subservient role for eternity >

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Haha, indeed! Fine, if that's what you want and you're happy about it, but the interesting observation on audio forums, for example, is that the 'WAF worriers', for want of a better expression, are always moaning about the situation, or making reference to it as an unfortunate but accpeted 'given', and somehow 'part and parcel' of married life. Is it f*ck! :mental:

'Happy' it would seem they are not, so they should stop moaning about it and accepting it and do something about it!!

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Ok, that does not hold true for around 30% of the hitched population where it is an equal partnership and both enjoy each other's hobbies and life.

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I consider that as normal, which I why I struggle to understand the, erm, 'alternatives'...

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Either that or in the main hifi attracts these sorts of people, some times it scares me when I see them.Just to put a counter point across, when we attended the Paris Hifi show last year, it was filled with everything that is *bad* about hifi in general, any outsiders looking in would have cringed, 55+ yo men (who are still under going a mid life crisis after 15 years) with pony tails and too tight fitting jeans, long coats, 'bobbing away' to trad jazz and some other weird sounds that redefined ' musical masturbation'

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LOL - me too, it's so pathetic and cringe-worthy. I'm thinking: "Get a bloody hair cut for God's sake and wear some sensible trousers, then perhaps you might look half your age instead of some sad old duffer who thinks he's an aging 'rocker'!" :lol:

This is a bit of a 'Room 101' thing for me, so I'll go into it in a bit more detail...

Don't get me wrong, the odd person at that age might be able to carry off a pony tail successfully, and appear quite 'individual' in the process, but the ones who don't (and they need only take a good look in the mirror regularly), who insist on clinging onto their youth in such a rather sad way, only serve to make themselves look ridiculous.

It's all very well thinking that the 'cool' look you created 30 or 40 years ago is part of your identity, or whatever, but unfortunately what you could carry off then with some panache now usually has quite the opposite effect, because although you may be the same person inside, what's on the outside has moved on quite dramatically: it's called the ageing process. Realistically, you have to evolve with it or more often then not look, erm, a bit of a tool. I mean, would you still wear the teenage-style clothes you once did when you were fourteen now when you are forty? - No, because you would look bloody stupid, wouldn't you, so why should the same be any different with your hair? What would a 50-year old woman look like with pigtails?? The fact is, if you don't want to look like a muppet you have to accept and embrace your body ageing and move with it, not against it.

It's the same with women in their 50s, or even older, wearing mini skirts and low-cut tops - what's all that about? :mental: Or guys going bald on top and in denial who still insist on growing their hair long at the back and sides (or the Brylcream 'sweep-over look'), as if desperately trying to convince themselves that they've still got some semblence of hair left on their bonce, and in the process all they're really doing is showcasing their baldy pates even further, creating that 'Friars Tuck' monk-look which is of course so iconic (not) :eyebrows:

Again I feel like saying: "Get yer hair cut, 'granddad' - keep it short all over or shave it all off completely and it'll knock about 10 years off you!"

And what is it with guys who have huge beer guts wearing trousers about three sizes too small for them, trying to fit into whatever waist size they took 5 or 10 years ago, by dropping the waistband of their trousers down to their hips, thus neatly avoiding their belly, and strapping it all in with a belt? All they're doing is accentuating their beer gut ten times more and looking like a trussed-up turkey :mental: - buy trousers that fit in the first bloody place!!

Sheer muppetry of the highest order... {RANT OVER} :lolsign:

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Geek's collecting as many leaflets and bags as they could carry, aloof owners of high end equipment slating various rooms, women that did attend looking forlorn, harassed and generally thoroughly pissed off.
Exhibitors looking jaded (not all) the atmosphere was not good (now this could have been any show in the UK as well to be fair)

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I know, and they always seem to have high-pitched, whining, voices too, don't they? - Like as if they're talking through their nose!

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If hifi wishes to truly survive and prosper, then it needs to take a good long look at its self in the mirror, and address EVERY issue before it goes forward, it need to be a TEAM effort from the consumers right up to the manufacturers.

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Indeed. Are you going to the Chester Group forum members' systems show on 1st March? It'll be interesting to see what that turns out to be like... ;)

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Sorry about the rant, just need a break for coding some new pages for the website.

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No worries - rants are always appreciated and welcome here :)

Marco.

Hi guys

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I know, and they always seem to have high-pitched, whining, voices too, don't they? - Like as if they're talking through their nose!

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Maybe thats an English thing.... never come across that one....;)


Regards D S D L----Neil :)

My wife likes spending on clothes, bags and shoes, I like spending on hi-fi. I suppose we look at what each other has purchased but only to be polite.
Am I more keen on the boxes than the music? Probably but I still love music and how good quality sound can be achieved for moderate amounts of money.
Badge snob? Only in the sense that I like having unusual stuff that friends havent heard of. Dont care if it only cost 50p.
I suppose I spend some of my listening time analysing the quality in order to decide on the next improvement rather than enjoying music for music sake.
I dont suppose I am going to change at the ripe old age of 54.
Am I willing to be told I have gone in the wrong direction and need to re-evaluate? Yep, it might mean buying more kit!

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Originally Posted by Mr. C

Marco,

when we attended the Paris Hifi show last year, it was filled with everything that is *bad* about hifi in general, any outsiders looking in would have cringed, 55+ yo men (who are still under going a mid life crisis after 15 years) with pony tails and too tight fitting jeans, long coats, 'bobbing away' to trad jazz and some other weird sounds that redefined ' musical masturbation'

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France, in general, is much more video orientated than other market and I think it's a sad state of affaires that there are mostly sad old gits likeme in interested in hifi.

You may not like it but jazz is, relatively, popular here. Paris even has its own jazz station (89.9fm TSF www.tsfjazz.com ).

Ok, me ? I pretend I'm in it for the music, I'm going to a show (jazz :ner: ) tonight. But I like fiddling with the kit, if I was only in it for the music I would have stopped at the Nait5. Better kit gets you access to more music, that is some music is too complicated for lesser kit and it just sounds like noise. As to what is better or not so better kit, that's in the ear of the listener.

Recently I've been on a bender with the kit, it all started with the SL1210!

I sometimes go visit other audiofools, and have rare visits to my gaff, but I've either got buy on the buzz, as I did with my 401 back in the '90s and also with SL1210 recently, or I'll demo some kit with dealers. I like the way that Naim presents music, it fits with my priorities, so getting more of the same is relatively no risk, even if it does get too expensive.

I wouldn't say I was a badge snob, but I would certainly try other kit based on it's reputation. Things that come to mind are, Wadia CD players, Lavardin amps, Harbeth speakers, and I'm sure there are others.

cheers

I've been having a think about all this for a few days now... with surprising (to me) results.

Pretty much everything in my system is going to have to go!

And I'm not really sure what it means. :scratch:

It means you've probably been listening to your wife too much!

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Originally Posted by Beechwoods

It means you've probably been listening to your wife too much!

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Ah well!... no actually.

Just been making her listen to me!

It might cost me a pair of curtains or summat though. ;)

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It might cost me a pair of curtains or summat though.

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That sounds like a good deal.

Last time i tried negotiating, it cost me three leather sofas.

When you start chucking yer system out, let me know and i'll be up there with me wheelbarrow.:)

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Originally Posted by alb

When you start chucking yer system out, let me know and i'll be up there with me wheelbarrow.:)

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Will do Al... make sure the 'barra' is full of used tenners! ;)

So this is 'good' getting rid of... as in 'and replacing with stuff more exciting' very shortly thereafter?!

Mike don't do it my advise is allow the wife to go out get your fav album out and listen as loud as u can
If that does not warm your soul then get rid of your system and forget about hifi
;)

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Originally Posted by Beechwoods

So this is 'good' getting rid of... as in 'and replacing with stuff more exciting' very shortly thereafter?!

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You got it bud! ;)

What's the revised plan of action then, Mikey? :)

Marco.

Hmmm.... much is still up in the air.

But it starts with the room, everything gets shifted 180 degrees.

Then... KT88's are out. Twin quarter wave Castles are out. Cables are out. Rack is out.

All to be replaced with 'new stuff'. Mucho DIY is in! :dance: