Bushmaster DAC burn-in

AOS,
Has enabled BM buyers to share experience. Maybe a few of us have been unlucky with early models. At the end of the day the experience has cost me £20 in postage and a lesson to perhaps hang back and wait a while to let problems be ironed out on new products. Stan refunded me on return of the unit, hopefully He can get to the bottom of the problem.
From my own experience with motorcycle problems dealing with sellers/ dealers can have you thinking it is just your bike.....forums enable people round the globe to share info and come to solutions.
I must admit, I dont like being a product developer for manufacturers that havent done a thorough job in the first place.

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Originally Posted by wee tee cee

AOS,
Has enabled BM buyers to share experience. Maybe a few of us have been unlucky with early models. At the end of the day the experience has cost me £20 in postage and a lesson to perhaps hang back and wait a while to let problems be ironed out on new products. Stan refunded me on return of the unit, hopefully He can get to the bottom of the problem.
From my own experience with motorcycle problems dealing with sellers/ dealers can have you thinking it is just your bike.....forums enable people round the globe to share info and come to solutions.
I must admit, I dont like being a product developer for manufacturers that havent done a thorough job in the first place.

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Not being funny but why has it cost you £20, you returned the product as faulty/bad unit etc?

Gaz,
The tenner to ship it to me was deducted from the refund and the RD on my part cost a tenner. A bit pricey for a fortnight of ownership.
Tony.

Distance Selling Regulations states if goods are faulty initial delivery costs must be refunded too.

As a show of good faith and Customer Service it would be good if you didn't have to pay to return the Dac either.
Its not a case of you "changing your mind" here, the Dac did not work properly.

Expensive fortnight as you say, not to mention the RD...

Gary,
I will absorb it...lesson learned.
Tony.

if you pay peanuts....

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Originally Posted by wee tee cee

I must admit, I dont like being a product developer for manufacturers that havent done a thorough job in the first place.

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That's a little unfair, Tony. There are many of us who have not received a faulty unit. Every product ever made has had failures (even Lexus). The telling differentiator is the after-sales service.

Martin,
Enjoy what you have, my BM sounded very goods as a DAC and headamp when it was working. I have a 3 year old dac magic/2 year old MF MF1/cheap Chinese jobbie......none have missed a beat. The BM and caiman are the only audio components that I have had to send back to a manufacturer.
Sell me something that is bullet proof for 50 quid extra that is reliable, rather than the faff of an excellent product that shits itself within a couple of weeks of ownership........just my take.
Its how reputation is built......I wont buy another regardless.....

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Originally Posted by sq225917

if you pay peanuts....

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Uncalled for as you don't have a dog in this race...

Electronic failure is not just restricted to products at a particular price range. I have had high end equipment fail fresh out of the box or a few days after it was installed. Nothing is bullet proof.

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Originally Posted by wee tee cee

Martin,
Enjoy what you have, my BM sounded very goods as a DAC and headamp when it was working. I have a 3 year old dac magic/2 year old MF MF1/cheap Chinese jobbie......none have missed a beat. The BM and caiman are the only audio components that I have had to send back to a manufacturer.
Sell me something that is bullet proof for 50 quid extra that is reliable, rather than the faff of an excellent product that shits itself within a couple of weeks of ownership........just my take.
Its how reputation is built......I wont buy another regardless.....

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I'm less impatient than you seem to be. I decided to slough through and I kept my Bushmaster on constant burn-in. Guess what -- I think it paid off! Ten days into it, the Bushmaster finally came into its own. It never sounded better. Now when I plug the Caiman next to it, the Caiman sounds like fingernails across the chalkboard in comparison.

My advice -- give it a few weeks to burn in. There might be ups and downs from day to day, but bear with it. If after say two weeks of constant burn in you still don't hear improvements, well then perhaps it's beyond help.

As a previous post mentions, even top marques go wrong, he mentioned Lexus, I can add Mercedes to that, I have just had a new kitchen fitted recently,and two of the appliances were faulty!

You just have to accept things can and do go wrong, but it's the after sales service that sorts the wheat from the chaff!

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Originally Posted by magiccarpetride

I'm less impatient than you seem to be. I decided to slough through and I kept my Bushmaster on constant burn-in. Guess what -- I think it paid off! Ten days into it, the Bushmaster finally came into its own. It never sounded better. Now when I plug the Caiman next to it, the Caiman sounds like fingernails across the chalkboard in comparison.

My advice -- give it a few weeks to burn in. There might be ups and downs from day to day, but bear with it. If after say two weeks of constant burn in you still don't hear improvements, well then perhaps it's beyond help.

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Its good to see the burn-in pay off. In my system a few changes did too

• Replaced the stock PSU with my Maplin XM-20W supply (15V) - made a big difference to highs and got rid of mushiness
• Put back the ferrite core to the Maplin PSU output lead. This took away the harshness.
• Changed the EDO 0.7 settings in my SBT to small buffer (I had 'large with random CPU' before which worked really well with the Caiman. The default also seems OK). This brought back the 3d soundstage I had with the Caiman.

Now the sound is similar to my Caiman with more bass and perhaps a bit more dynamic. Hopefully, I will also benefit further from the burn-in too.

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Originally Posted by magiccarpetride

Now when I plug the Caiman next to it, the Caiman sounds like fingernails across the chalkboard in comparison.

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Is it possible that this young man may be slightly exaggerating do you think? ;)

[QUOTE=chrism;339223]

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Originally Posted by magiccarpetride

Now when I plug the Caiman next to it, the Caiman sounds like fingernails across the chalkboard in comparison.QUOTE]

Is it possible that this young man may be slightly exaggerating do you think? ;)

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That depends on whether he's listening to 'Now that's what I call fingernails on chalkboard 17' or not.

[QUOTE=webby;339228]

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Originally Posted by chrism

That depends on whether he's listening to 'Now that's what I call fingernails on chalkboard 17' or not.

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:lol:

[QUOTE=chrism;339223]

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Originally Posted by magiccarpetride

Now when I plug the Caiman next to it, the Caiman sounds like fingernails across the chalkboard in comparison.QUOTE]

Is it possible that this young man may be slightly exaggerating do you think? ;)

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No, that never happens on hifi forums.

[QUOTE=sq225917;339243]

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Originally Posted by chrism

No, that never happens on hifi forums.

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Especially subjectivist ones!

A veritable hotpot of pragmatism this place is!

happens here too...

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Originally Posted by icehockeyboy

As a previous post mentions, even top marques go wrong, he mentioned Lexus, I can add Mercedes to that, I have just had a new kitchen fitted recently,and two of the appliances were faulty!

You just have to accept things can and do go wrong, but it's the after sales service that sorts the wheat from the chaff!

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Totally agree Craig. In my case the Bushmaster wouldn't work with my laptop.
In all fairness I don't think that the Bushmaster was at fault. Stan , however resolved the problem to my entire satisfaction . Excellent after sales service as ever.
Brian.

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Originally Posted by chrism

Is it possible that this young man may be slightly exaggerating do you think? ;)

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I know it sounds like I'm exaggerating, but in reality, here is what I'm hearing: I play Amy Winehouse "Me and Mr. Jones" through the Caiman, and I get this glassy, blaring sound. I play the same tune through the Bushmaster, and the glassiness is gone and there are no blaring sounds. Furthermore, with the Caiman, I hear all the instruments occupying the same plane as Amy's voice, only spread out from left to right, while with the Bushmaster the instruments are placed way back behind Amy, and are positioned in their proper places, so that it gets very easy to 'see' them.

Big, big difference, if you ask me. Plus, not to mention the silky highs which I'm fully enjoying now that the Bushmaster had finally settled in and is performing in a very consistent fashion. Amazing DAC, amazing sound!

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Originally Posted by magiccarpetride

I play the same tune through the Bushmaster, and the glassiness is gone and there are no blaring sounds. Furthermore, with the Caiman, I hear all the instruments occupying the same plane as Amy's voice, only spread out from left to right, while with the Bushmaster the instruments are placed way back behind Amy, and are positioned in their proper places, so that it gets very easy to 'see' them.

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Hey what you've said about the Caiman is very similar to my experiences of the TC-7510. Interesting that you're hearing such a big upgrade. :)

It's a bit disconcerting when you first hear this sense of layering in music mixes for the first time using "digital" isn't it? :)

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Originally Posted by Yomanze

Hey what you've said about the Caiman is very similar to my experiences of the TC-7510. Interesting that you're hearing such a big upgrade. :)

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Yeah, I've always thought that my less than optimal speaker positioning is the reason I'm not getting the much coveted 'deep, deep, deep' soundstage (my speakers are only two and a half feet away from the wall behind them). Turns out it was more due to the source and the accompanying digital noise (or lack of it). Obviously, once you upgrade to the more resolving source (such as the Bushmaster), voila! -- your soundstage opens up and deepens! What some people call 'blackness between the instruments' (which, quite frankly, always sounded like bullshit to me) suddenly becomes perceivable, and that lack of digital noise helps create the illusion that you are indeed looking at certain instruments playing way in the back, deep into the soundstage.

It's an amazing revelation.

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Originally Posted by magiccarpetride

Yeah, I've always thought that my less than optimal speaker positioning is the reason I'm not getting the much coveted 'deep, deep, deep' soundstage (my speakers are only two and a half feet away from the wall behind them). Turns out it was more due to the source and the accompanying digital noise (or lack of it). Obviously, once you upgrade to the more resolving source (such as the Bushmaster), voila! -- your soundstage opens up and deepens! What some people call 'blackness between the instruments' (which, quite frankly, always sounded like bullshit to me) suddenly becomes perceivable, and that lack of digital noise helps create the illusion that you are indeed looking at certain instruments playing way in the back, deep into the soundstage.

It's an amazing revelation.

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+1

That's exactly my experience with the BM too :)

+1 this layering and inky blackness of space between instruments is something more akin to analog presentations. I posted my first impressions in the BM review thread and the vocals is what got me hooked to the BM. The way voices are rendered with depth and defined punctuations in the way the singer delivers them is captivating

Just a thought if Caiman is a crocodile, then the Bushmaster is either the Australian designed military vehicle or a chain-fed auto-cannon. So which is it Stan?

It's a snake.

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Originally Posted by maxrob200

+1 this layering and inky blackness of space between instruments is something more akin to analog presentations. I posted my first impressions in the BM review thread and the vocals is what got me hooked to the BM. The way voices are rendered with depth and defined punctuations in the way the singer delivers them is captivating

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++1. Voices are simply amazing. I never knew James Brown had so much vulnerability in his voice, until I've heard him through a properly burned-in Bushmaster. Switch back to the Caiman, and James is merely screeching and shouting.

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Switch back to the Caiman, and James is merely screeching and shouting.

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12 months ago you were saying the Caiman was the best thing since sliced bread:mental:

The BM is a huge leap in performance over my TC 7520 (with updated op-amps). Most noticeable is the expressiveness in the vocals, followed by depth and layering and space between the music's ebb and flow.
Still running -in but it's a beauty

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Originally Posted by roob

12 months ago you were saying the Caiman was the best thing since sliced bread:mental:

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Now I've discovered there are better things than sliced bread. That's the price you pay for living in a technologically advanced age -- your pet likes and dislikes continue being challenged. Another day, another dollar.

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Originally Posted by magiccarpetride

Now I've discovered there are better things than sliced bread. That's the price you pay for living in a technologically advanced age -- your pet likes and dislikes continue being challenged. Another day, another dollar.

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nowt wrong wi' a bit of enthusiasm..

Good is good, better is more good. :)

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Originally Posted by jandl100

Good is good, better is more good. :)

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Another thing I've noticed yesterday is how Bushmaster handles mp3s way better than Caiman. I was listening to several mp3 tracks and was amazed at the substantiality and the body mass that Bushmaster was able to squeeze out of the compressed data. Usually lossy mp3 format tends to sound a bit hollow, as if the instruments are mere holographic projections, instead of being made out of solid material.

Some of us already mentioned that...do keep up! :eyebrows: :D

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Originally Posted by roob

12 months ago you were saying the Caiman was the best thing since sliced bread:mental:

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That's what amazes me as well. At first these products are so much better then the rest, but then someone discovers that a with a specific opamp or a certain interlink it sounds way superior. That of course is all very well possible at some stage but where does it end, if there is any? Does it get better and better and better and....?

I am not an expert at all but I think the human mind perceives "different sounding" as "better sounding", once it is familiarised with the current sound. The perfect sound should (I guess) be the same as one would hear when attending a live performance of that artist. If that goals is reached, the sound can't be improved in my non-technical opinion. Still there appear to be a zillion configurations that improve the sound.

Maybe the perfect sound is just unreachable. I will keep trying though. :eyebrows:

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Originally Posted by Fi-Wi

That's what amazes me as well. At first these products are so much better then the rest, but then someone discovers that a with a specific opamp or a certain interlink it sounds way superior. That of course is all very well possible at some stage but where does it end, if there is any? Does it gets better and better and better and....?

:eyebrows:

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Yep, the same thought has struck me many times on here. I realise that there is a natural tendency to keep 'mum' and move it on quick rather than post about it if you think you've bought a 'pup', but there does seem to me to be a preponderence of "Oooh yes, this is much better than what it replaced" sort of posts. And with some members they just seem to get better and better, ad infinitum, with every one of their very frequent changes.
I guess a lot of it must be 'in the mind', it's the only logical conclusion I can think of.
Dave.

Steven,

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Originally Posted by Fi-Wi

Does it get better and better and better and....?

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no, I seriously doubt this. Let’s face it: This type of hysterical enthusiasm is part of the game played by adult boys. Once they exceed a certain age, the electric toy railway will be replaced by HiFi. If these dudes would just purchase a good piece of gear which sounds fantastic right out of the box, they were terribly bored.

Others prefer to buy the best sounding equipment they can afford, just plug it in, forget about the gear and listen to music. I have a fondness for devices where the power supply is integrated in the housing, not only because it is less cumbersome.

One part of the HiFi enthusiasts likes to listen to music. Another part obviously prefers to listen to various PSUs, rechargeable batteries, accumulators, different power cords and connection cables, while they watch their new toys ripening to unimaginable blooms. Any old record by Dire Straits or the recently released, re-re-remastered and re-re-remixed 32-bit version of “Dark side of the moon” is the perfect soundtrack while waiting until the new DAC shall hit that magic 500-hour burn-in mark.

Well, to each his own, I guess. All this certainly is better than getting drunk on Saturday evenings while watching TV and torturing the dog or the “missus” :-)

Werner.

Reading some of these comments makes me wonder what the point is of trying to improve the accuracy and quality of the music that is played back.
No matter how much time and effort audio designers put into improving equipment, there will always be people who are quite happy with what they have already been listening to before. There is no doubt about that. But to take issues with improvements is taking things in a completely different realm. I would even suggest that holders of such views should spend less time on audio forums. Atheists don't go to church after all.

Most of atheists I know, tend to talk more about religion than worshipers.

This is in real life, I am not aiming at anyone from hifi.

Yes they talk about religion but don't go to church.
Is like talking about whether a new DAC is an improvement in the Bushmaster thread and questioning the sanity (and maybe even the honesty) of anyone who declares to have discovered improvements in their audio system, or discovered information etc. in their music that they could not hear before. If such findings were merely limited to one person, perhaps there could be a case of over indulgence on the part of that person. But independent confirmation from numerous sources cannot be rejected as mass hysteria. To claim otherwise does make me wonder about any ulterior motives.

FWIW there can never be agreement on what music should sound like because nobody really knows but everyone thinks they know or have an opinion on it. Using words like 'accurate' is pointess because there is no definitive or universally agreed standard. One man's 'accurate' is another man's poison. to mix my metaphors :) .
Even if we all agree that we are hearing the same sounds, which does not and cannot happen IMHO, who can say that it is accurate? - accurate compared to what? An infinite number of performances of the same music by the same musicians but in an infinite number of venues will give an infinite variety of 'accurate' performances but there will be a wide variation in those performances and an equally wide variation of opinions on which were considered 'accurate'.
Bit like chasing mist in a fog IMO :) .
Dave.

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Originally Posted by DaveK

FWIW there can never be agreement on what music should sound like because nobody really knows

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You could make a good fist of it by going to a classical concert or two. You'll learn a lot about acoustic, unamplified instruments, the incredible dynamic range of a real orchestra and the sound of music that everyone can agree on. I use it as my reference for everything I know about how, for instance, a piano should sound.

What does it mean "what music should sound like"? It has no concrete meaning. Recorded music will never sound the same as live music. So that's a irrelevant objective.

What most designers attempt to do however is to reduce or remove those elements from previous products that interfered with or obscured elements within the played back music. If we look back since the introduction of record players etc., the next technical innovation was primarily concerned with improving the sound playback. And that process has never stopped.

I'll stick to my guns!! :ner:
Good piano music played in different but very good venues will give you different sounds IMO at the level of detail most audiophiles prefer. Put another way, recording direct to mp3 quality may give listeners some difficulty seperating the different recordings but at the level of detail, nuance and subtlety that audiophiles listen for and expect to hear in their recordings I suggest that it would more difficult to get agreement on which, if any, was the more accurate recording.
Just MO.
Dave.

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Originally Posted by DaveK

I'll stick to my guns!! :ner:
Good piano music played in different but very good venues will give you different sounds IMO at the level of detail most audiophiles prefer.

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And a good audio system will let you hear the difference in location.

Nothing wrong with sticking to your guns, but weapons technology has moved on. And so has audio technology.

Stanley,

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Originally Posted by StanleyB

But to take issues with improvements is taking things in a completely different realm.

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I think no one denies that real progress in developing and implementing improvements to audio playback devices is very welcome. However, in my opinion claiming to be able to recognize sound improvements caused by different types of power supplies and cables is greatly exaggerated. It really would be interesting to verify if these assertions and observations could withstand double blind tests.

What about these audio manufacturers who prefer to design the power supply as integral, not interchangeable part of the device?

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Originally Posted by StanleyB

I would even suggest that holders of such views should spend less time on audio forums.

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There are audio forums which put the focus on soldering irons, external power supplies, cables, legendary turntables, rare tonearms and cartridges. And then there are other audio forums where one is mainly concerned with music. As a good example of the second kind I suggest the Steve Hoffman music forums.

Werner.

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Originally Posted by StanleyB

(...) If we look back since the introduction of record players etc., the next technical innovation was primarily concerned with improving the sound playback. And that process has never stopped.

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And that's what makes me wonder if it wil ever? Every single improvement should be one step closer to "the perfect sound" or maybe better "one's perfect sound". But that would mean that some day the end-of-the-line is reached and no further innovations are possible. I doubt it that will be the case.

My insight has nothing to do with questioning the sanity of people who claim improvements in their systems or being an atheist. I am just trying to understand this process we go through.

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Originally Posted by Werner Berghofer

Others prefer to buy the best sounding equipment they can afford, just plug it in, forget about the gear and listen to music.

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An interesting implication there that things improve as you spend more.
Lots of good sounding hifi breaks that "rule".
Sure I could spend multiple-£k on the latest well-reviewed DAC. The trouble is, I've heard quite a few of them - and imho the Bushmaster sounds better.

And anyway, if you stick with what you know, you'll never learn anything new. ;)