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I always thought that JBL do bass very well. Lightweight 12" paper cone drivers that can move air but are still fast. I had a pair of L100-T (from the Ti range) a good few years ago and they showed many a British design how to do fast and deep bass properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Has anyone ever look at a www.voltloudspeakers.co.uk drive unit because I think they may be the best you can buy.
The secret to good quality bass is sensible cabinet alignment and a huge amplifier, preferably via an Active crossover because a passive one softens the sound too much.
My, I should feel right at home here- a) I listen in a modest size room b) I listen with modest size speakers with small drivers c) they are one of the grand daddies of active speakers, the last incarnation of the Meridian M20 d) I am in agreement with most of the comments here about how all this adds up. I did, however, replace the short factory supplied stands with taller ones and use the tweeter surrounds that I make. Altogether to include how they marry to my room, I'm as happy as a duck on a bug.
What intrigues me the most about the ADM9's is all that amplifier power. That has to be good. My speakers are also are too soft in the lowest bass. Dressed all the way out, that's 2/3 of a system in a single package at more than reasonable cost. To my way of thinking, add a quick little tube pre and I can imagine a lively and fulfilling listening experience. Oh yeah.
There is a remote controlled, two input preamplifier built in as well as a 24 bit DAC by Wolfson that I see Linn are advertising as the "best in the world".
All you need is a Laptop and an Airport Express to supply the noughts and ones to the speakers and you're done!
The scariest thing to traditionalists is how good they sound with an iPod Touch from its analogue output.
Ash,
I'm looking forward to the AVI demo at Bristol. I'll review it on the forum, along with stuff from the rest of the show. I'd really like to get a handle on where you guys are coming from with audio. There is much to learn for a traditionalist like me :)
Marco.
Marco, there will be no shocks for you because you already have natural and accurate speakers, you should expect an extremely clean and more dynamic sound with a better stereo image from a relatively small speaker.
That's assuming you can hear anything above the high ambient noise level.
We always think we've done well if we can equal the sound quality of the ceiling speakers in the Gent's toilet on the first floor!
LOL. It will be good to have a chat and a listen anyway :)
Marco.
The power supply is not big enough or low impedance enough in the technics. They use an under size frame transformer for the voltage swing. This is a classic example of watts meaning virtually bugger all, which is why I was calling Ashley. Think of the power supply as the waterpipe, the gain stages (amplifier) as the tap and the speaker as the glass. If the water pipe ain't big enough it makes no difference how far the tap will turn! AND there is precisely no point in measuring the speed of the water into a thimble (load resisitor) if you wish it to equate to a pint glass (loudspeaker).Quote:
Originally Posted by sastusbulbas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Here are some pics and specs of the offending (but still enjoyable) item. :)
I do like it's quiet performance when used with sensitive speakers, with 103db sensitivity speakers this amp is silent when you put your ear to the tweeter (with digital direct). I have heard AVI amps are also good in this respect.
The amp prefers 8ohm easy to drive speakers of reasonable to high sensitivity, and can offer enjoyable results with such. I did see pictures of this amp in a Japanese TAD thread? not sure if it has been paired successfully with such esteemed products?
In earlier days it was beneficial to have it's multiple digital inputs and outputs too, but as with any integrated solution not much can be done with upgrading.
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/d...icture1087.jpg
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/d...as/Picture.jpg
All you need to do is replace those undersize frame transformers with a couple of 160va but preferably 220va or better still 300va torroids and that amp would sing and drive anything. Trouble is there is no room in the case but you could do it as external PSU box or two. Typical Japanese they always scrimp on the power supply.Quote:
Originally Posted by sastusbulbas
A separate case/cases would not bother me, I guess it would be connected with a couple of those Neutrik Speakon type power connectors for left and right channels?Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
How would one go about doing that though? and at what cost? Would other components not need changed also if using more powerful torroids such as the 300va?
I used a Nu-Vista 300 power amp with a separate power supply, I guess it would be similar to this or the Border Patrol supplies?
Steve.
Just stick to the same secondary voltage and you can use any size of va up to 1000 phew :eyebrows: . Look and see if it is just one secondary and they are not taking other sub tappings to supply something else. Dead simple if you can solder and you are logical in changing the wires. Personally I wouldn't use plugs I would just hard wire. I can supply cases with the transformers fitted to a + - and earth wire out. For 300va it would work at £80 per box. If you get a Farnell or RS box and wire it your self you will save £30 per box.Quote:
Originally Posted by sastusbulbas
Perhaps that would explain why I've never heard a solid-state Japanese amplifier that I've liked?Quote:
Typical Japanese they always scrimp on the power supply.
They always sound somewhat 'limp' and lack drive in the bass, even the esoteric stuff.
Marco.
[Moved from "Big - Old - Legacy - Separates" thread]
I've just found this posting buried among essays on pro or anti computer/cdp performance (I think, as my attention span only copes with shortish, pithy postings).Quote:
Originally Posted by jandl100
Endorsed by Mr Ed, I also second this motion of big against small speakers if you want to achieve sheer scale. I have had many of both types over four plus decades, but have rarely been without large speakers in my main systems.
I think there ARE trade-offs, with the larger speakers being slower than an equivalent smaller one (depending on amplification), and the smaller speakers are probably more domestically acceptable
Apart from their (to me) obvious ability to portray far, far more of the 'big picture' of larger ensembles, and probably smaller ones too, there must be design and manufacturing as well as other considerations to take into account.
Of course, quality is everything.
I had Leak 2075s in the late seventies/eighties (large bass boxes with swivel mid/top boxes). Sounded ok with valves, but dull as ditchwater, and slow, with entry-level Naim. They were not expensive at the time (£350?).
Three large ProAc Response speakers I've more recently had were quite superb in every parameter of performance and presentation through (admittedly higher level) Naim.
Back to the original premise; you really cannot match a well-designed large speaker, whether ported, transmission line, electrostatic or horn.
The thing to remember is that a big three-way speaker has a crossover somewhere between 250 and 400 Hz and another between 2.5kHz and 5kHz and that these are extremely difficult to design and invariably have a detrimental effect on the sound. At best they will make it harsh and at worst phase errors can cause some discomfort and lots of information can be lost in the "fuzziness" they cause. In large rooms and when the listening distance is greater than average, they can be very impressive, but a better compromise for most people is an average sized two-way with an optional Sub. Some prefer the sound of stand mounters and are happy without it, but those that demand the scale of large and powerful three way speakers can pay the extra and be happy too.
There is no harshness or "fuzziness" in my system with the SP100s - just beautiful 'live' sounding music delivered with huge scale and dynamic impact, when the music demands, and finesse and subtlety too when that's required :)Quote:
The thing to remember is that a big three-way speaker has a crossover somewhere between 250 and 400 Hz and another between 2.5kHz and 5kHz and that these are extremely difficult to design and invariably have a detrimental effect on the sound. At best they will make it harsh and at worst phase errors can cause some discomfort and lots of information can be lost in the "fuzziness" they cause.
Those tiny little ADM9s are probably ok for background music in a dining room and that's about it ;)
Marco.
This post will bear analysis. SP100's are good speakers but they are an old design and new designs from experts, with newly designed drive units, will be better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
My LS's (actives) with a 2 wire sub, will do it. I know it, that's why I bought them. I use them to replay a lot of my own recordings, and I know what they are supposed to sound like.
I have read the posts on the mods and "upgrades" done to your tube amp Marco, and that process would drive me nuts. I would think "oh bugger this thing is defective and inaccurate, I'll have to get it repaired."
I don't think you can have heard adm9's working properly. Go and see Ash and check 'em out. Then re-assess.
JC,
SP100s are not old designs - they are a current design based on traditional principles which use current up-to-date drive units, and I have no intention whatsoever to downgrade to tiny little stand-mounts, no matter how much you wax lyrical about them or how good they are in their intended application.
You really must come and hear my system sometime to understand why the statement you've posted is quite comical - enough said. You can bring your ADM9s, too, and Ashley.
Regarding my valve amp, I'm delighted with it, thanks. 'Tube rolling' is all part of the fun of owing a valve amp, and the sonic rewards of getting it right are substantial. The results I've achieved now are quite spectacular.
I'd much rather be doing that than fiddling around with iPods and suchlike! ;)
<Boooorrrinnngg> :ner:
Marco.
Marco SP100's are even tinier little stand mounts sharing a box with a Woofer and, to muddy the waters, the biggest advances in transducer design have been in 6.5" drive units because they sell in the largest quantities. Therefore it's not as clear cut as you think because big speakers have two crossovers, not one, and the lower one is right where it can do the most damage, especially to phase. And there's more because the two crossovers interact and sum so that it's practically impossible to make this inaudible through the all important mid range.
The question you have to ask is not about the size of box but whether two of the best 6'5" drive units with only one electronic (and inaudible) crossover together with a very special 40 kilo sub with an enormous high power drive unit in a sealed box, might actually be far louder and better sounding.
You also need to remember that we've got a history of designing bloody good big loudspeakers as well so are able to make comparisons.
Here is a review for consideration. Hugh was Head of the BBC Engineers training school in the days when they cared about sound.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct99/articles/av1.htm
Ash
Interesting. The Gravitions sound like my kind of speakers. Pity there are no pictures?
Ashley, I'm just trying to reign in JC's abounding enthusiasm for his ADM9s ;)
I think it is pointless trying to make silly comparisons between what he uses and my SP100s because they're both completely different animals.
Both of you would do well to trot up here at some point, or to Spendor HQ and ask Terry Miles to let you hear a pair of SP100R, and 'update your records', so to speak.
Yes I know you've got a history of designing bloody good big speakers (and other things, too) I just wish you would get bloody back to doing it! I might even buy a pair ;)
Ultimately it's that sort of stuff which is of more interest to me than your ADM9s.
Marco.
I like the way this is shaping up..........:punch:
Hehe...no chance. We're too much like gentlemen here :lol:
Marco.
Big Speakers Rule :wave:
Grrr
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/d...bas/pm-124.gif
And as long as everyone knows that JC is a happy AVI customer and expressing his own opinions and ignores his unbounded enthusiasm, it'll be interesting because he knows his stuff.
I'd also point out that most of these Forum rows around ADM9s have occurred without my involvement, all that's happened is people who've bought them and are understandably very excited have reviewed them and been viciously attacked and accused of being AVI plants by rude, intolerant and foolish people, who won't accept that are hi fi or whatever.
Some have not used a message board since because it so upset them.
I suggest it's not worth picking a fight with JC because you won't win and people enjoy his very amusing comments, far better to pick his brains on recording, archiving, digitising, using pro audio gear because it tends to be cheaper and better than hi fi and generally getting the most from computers.
Computers are if anything, a better way to play CDs, virtually all music is made on them (most movies too) and the are more versatile and have a better user interface.
Just my thoughts and not intended to provoke a war.
Ash
I don't mind wars, but we've had all that so let's talk instead. You all know what "Good old Winnie" said ( and supported by "our dear Margaret", {heh, heh}), war,war, is better than jaw,jaw. !
Marco, dear boy, do you seriously think I have never heard SP100's ? and in spite of them being a current product (in their present incarnation) they were designed well before even the drivers for the adm9's were conceived.
I laughed at Blzebub because he kept trying to suggest his ATC100a's were out performing adm9's and he got so offended and outspoken they banned him for life !
The fact is I have heard these "big-old", "legacy", speakers and they are flawed, particulary in the lower register and especially on "voice".
I'm not saying they are crap, and I can understand why you like them, but really, adm9's are better, with a 2 wire sub if you must. I spent two years sorting this out, and I bought two complete systems to evaluate side by side for a year, after intensively auditioning about twenty, and I've had a lot of years of listening too.
Anyone who wants to talk about this subject HAS to audition them properly with a proper computer driving them. THEN WE CAN HAVE A REAL DING-DONG, KNOCK-DOWN-DRAG-OUT, WAR - if you like !
Excellent Idea JC, I would like to volunteer for judicial juties please, with my SPL meter and full measurement suite :-)
Bollocks. Voice is what they're best at! And there's bugger all wrong with their lower registers either :lol:Quote:
The fact is I have heard these "big-old", "legacy", speakers and they are flawed, particulary in the lower register and especially on "voice".
Honestly, one listen to my system (through the SP100s) and your jaw would hit the floor, sweety, certainly based on the reports I've received from trusted ears (five pairs of them to date) of the ADM9s. Not that there's anything wrong with them in their intended application, but to compare them to what I'm using is just silly.
I might put some in the houses I rent out locally to students to use with their little iPod doo-dahs. I'm sure they would appreciate them far more than me :eyebrows:
Marco.
Not playing!!!
:sofa:
ADM9s + Sub are as loud as pair of a ATC SCM100A SL and have a better midrange (as do the Spendors) and they'll measure better than virtually anything else on the planet, which gets us into trouble with enthusiasts.
Here's a testimonial from an owner of SCM50ASL's
We've had a few Quad ESL owners buy them too and prefer them.
Dear Ashley - New Years resolution to let you know how I am getting on with the adm9s
*
At the moment they are in a temporary set-up, simply perched on the edge of a chest of drawers in our small sitting room, waiting for the new build cupboards and shelves to go in before a final decision as to whether they will go on stands or on the shelves. Even ignoring this less than ideal placement the results are excellent! Both my sons suggest the top end is a bit extended, but I suspect this is simply that they are used to speakers with a more rolled off top - certainly I notice it being quite open, but not a problem at all - could simply be age-related high-frequency loss! The mid range is hugely transparent, so much so that I notice recording balance issues which my ATC SCM 50s largely gloss over. Notwithstanding their size, the ATCs could not be said to be bass heavy, but even allowing for that, I am amazed at the mid-bass output of the adm9s, and certainly do not miss it much in this relatively small room and with most orchestral output. Small scale jazz with percussion and string bass obviously suffers, but this tends to be fairly closed miked anyway, and the sense of realism and bite in the rest of the spectrum pretty well makes up for the bass-light nature. I have tried playing around a little with the equaliser in ITunes, but however I try the trade off is muddying of the midrange so I think if a fuller sound is the question, then probably the sub is the answer. Imaging is superb, and can only improve when better sited.
*
All in all a great investment, and using the MAC to store music has invigorated my listening - apart from the number of CDs which my AVI player swallows without a glitch, but which the MAC groans and eventually gives up any attempt to read. I am about to download the new OS, which Roger tells me is a great improvement in many ways, so it will be interesting to see if that helps
*
I am delighted, and will try to get along to the Bristol hi-fi show to have a chat - I might even contemplate selling my ATCs for another set of adm9s and a sub-woofer for the bigger sitting room!
*
Many thanks from a very pleased customer
You mustn't forget they are all we claim.
Ash
Ash, Cooee, any dem slots going ? I wanna sell tickets :smoking:
oops, sorry, he beat me to it !
Go on Mr C, you're a dealer, (is Marco a dealer ?) get a pair in, I'll bring a laptop if you need one.
Looking at your website, they'd fit in anyway I reckon. A good alternative to that silly valve stuff and not expensive.
What's the big thing with ATC? I don't particularly like ATC speakers - certainly not their active designs! I'd like to hear that new huge floorstander they've got out, though, with the 15" drive units. That looks quite promising. I can't remember the model number.
ATCs don't sound like my SP100s, Ashley.
I'm not particularly interested in 'loudness'. What I value with big speakers is scale and realism, and bass that is delivered with massive visceral impact (the kind that with appropriate material hits you in the chest and makes you feel queasy) which I get in spades with the SP100s, and which I wouldn't get with tiny little drive units in a tiny little cabinet, no matter how good ADM9s are.Quote:
ADM9s + Sub are as loud as pair of a ATC SCM100A SL and have a better midrange (as do the Spendors) and they'll measure better than virtually anything else on the planet, which gets us into trouble with enthusiasts.
You need big cones shifting lots of air to get that effect. And I don't like subwoofers. The bass always seems 'detached' from the rest of the sound no matter how well integrated they are.
Measurements? They're only relevant up to a point. I don't judge speakers (or any other piece of hi-fi equipment) on measurements alone. Experience has taught me it's folly to do so. There are extraneous factors which ultimately influence the sound much more - that is unless you want a bland and sterile sounding hi-fi system ;)
Oh and Marco is most certainly not a dealer (although he knows a few) :)
Marco.
Marco you misunderstood me, you know I like your speakers and I said the mid range on them was better than the ATC's, I mentioned them only to illustrate the fact that ADM9s go as loud as the ATC's without distorting as much as they do, which is much louder than S100's. The Sub merges perfectly too, which is why it's so expensive. For reasons that I shan't disclose, I'll ask you to accept that we have considerable experience of Subwoofer design because we have access to most UK made ones.
Ash
No worries, Ashley. I see where you're coming from :)
With regard to subwoofers I wouldn't dispute what you're saying about your own designs - I'm not in a position to do so as I haven't heard an AVI subwoofer in conjunction with ADM9s or other 'satellite'-type speakers of your company's own design.
However I've heard plenty of others and that's what my comment was based on. I prefer to get scale and deep bass from large all-in-one speakers than via the subwoofer route as up until now that's the best way I've heard of doing it. Tannoy Westminsters, any big PMCs, my SP100s, KEF Maidstones, Naim DBLs, JBL K2 S9800s, Focal Grande Utopia Bes, when set-up properly they all do the 'scale' thing to a dramatic degree, which is what makes me smile.
I like to 'feel' the music as well as hear it, just like you do at a live concert, and that's why size will always matter to me ;)
Marco.
I understand Marco but I'm worried that if we go on about ADM9's all the fights will start.
I'll pipe down till something else crops up that I may be able to comment on.
Ash
Hooray, Hooray, Hooray,
Marco has admitted that he's never heard adm9's and an AVI sub !!!!!!
oh bliss, there is a god after all !!!!!
I'l just nip out and perform a jig from sheer delight !!!!!
If only some of the others would actually admit they've never heard them either !!!!!
Ha Ha Ha, Ho Ho Ho, Hum Hum Hum, Bliss, such Bliss, I'm speechless !!!!
:lolsign::lolsign::lolsign::lolsign: :lolsign::lolsign::lolsign::lolsign::lolsign:
:gig: :ner::ner::ner::cool::cool::cool: :gig:
Your consideration is appreciated, Ashley. I'm sure though that if ADM9s are discussed in the appropriate context there will be no problems. They're an innovative and interesting product and as such deserve to be mentioned accordingly :)
As long as JC can keep his 'pecker' in, so to speak, we'll be fine :lolsign:
Marco.
P.S I've always said I've never heard the ADM9s - that's nothing new! I NEVER comment definitively on equipment I've had no experience with. It's a sure way of gaining zero credibility ;)
Hey Marco, they're waiting for you on the s/pdif cable thread. :);)
I must say that I've never been comfortable with the "bigger is better" argument with loudspeakers because small speakers punch way above their weight. I'll name some favourites:
The Original Goodmans Maxim as designed by Laurie Fincham, they had a tiny 4.5" Bass driver and a miniature cone driver as a tweeter and it was possible to place them on top of big speakers have have listeners not know which were playing.
LS3/5A's were amazing in their day, although, thanks to misplaced enthusiasm in certain quarters, they've achieved a cult status, which they no longer deserve. They're phasey in the mid and a bit squeaky at the top.
Our own Neutrons which are nearly over now, but thousands and thousands of pairs have sold, if anyone finds a second hand pair, buy them, you'll be amazed. I'll never forget putting them in front of ELS63's at a Musical Weekend in the Lake District and playing music. Everyone thought it was the ELS's and when we switched over to prove it, they sounded worse!
The opposite is true of big three way speakers, in so many, the crossovers really do so much damage that many people prefer two-way speakers instead. The odd ones have stood out and S100's are amongst the very best, but Wilson Watt's?
Properly designed and Active and Big three way speakers could be amazing, but they'll need a cone mid range in my opinion.
I think it's a crying shame that AVI have abandoned their traditional roots shunning 'classic' hi-fi for computer audio. I think it's a decision that could backfire on the company in future.Quote:
Our own Neutrons which are nearly over now, but thousands and thousands of pairs have sold, if anyone finds a second hand pair, buy them, you'll be amazed.
Marco.
Does anyone have any views on this?
Personally, I can't see why AVI couldn't have catered for both markets, even if it meant only selling a small amount of their 'legacy hi-fi' and them concentrating predominantly on computer audio...
Marco.
If they catered for both markets the very existence of the alternative would completely undermine the marketing logic behind ADM Bloody Nine Point whatevers.
Damn. I composed a polite and hopefully informative reply, went to check the spelling and lost the whole thing installing the iespell addon :steam:
I suspect the component market was shrinking for AVI as with everyone else and they'd already had issues with unreliable CD transports. The Pro 9 speaker was due a face-lift and I suspect the idea for active operation had been on the cards since Ash's ATC days, where he showed me what he was on about far better face-to-face than he does online.. he had backup from the ATC designers too and currently has Martin Grindrod behind him, who designs all of AVI's stuff..
AVI were considering a preamp with both analogue and digital ins and outs a short while ago. To be honest, I suspect that most ADM buyers use computers or streaming (from remote drive) systems as sources and people like me with vintage sources are very few and far between. Anyway, Meridian were doing this years ago and they made suitable preamps which could be affordable now. I wish AVI had gone ahead with this aforementioned preamp, although I suspect the market has moved on now, as Naim may have found with some of their recent releases - too little, too expensive, too late.......... :hmm:
I've no doubt that the ADM drivers are excellent in their size and price class. Driver technology has moved on no end and never more at the lower end, where top quality, computer optimised units can be sourced in the far east for reasonable amounts. I remember Robin Marshall saying in an interview how lengthy his design for the ES14 Epos bass unit took, as he had his maths, but no CAD to assist him. Harbeth have benefitted extensively from CAD in the preparation stage, saving many design-hours in the process.
I still think it's very unfair to totally dismiss the ADM9.1's as crappy little computer speakers, as there's far more to them I believe. Many of the cheaper little active monitors out there have nasty little amp packs inside (and sound cold and scrappy because of it) and I'm told that even the Tannoy actives under a grand don't come up to much.
The funny thing is, the ADM9 balance sould suit many Linnies of the old-school out there - lean-n-clean bass with no boom or overhang to upset the "timing," a lively and clear midrange and a proper crossover into the (I suspect) perfectly behaved tweeter, the crossover being usefully high in frequency yet still well within the linear parts of the respective drivers (something ALL old speakers had difficulty with IMO***).
*** Many speakers from pre 1980 had severe problems at the crossover point, the tweeters not going down low enough and the bass units not going high enough either, with all sorts of phasey dips in between. hey, even the LS3/5A needed a resonance circuit to bolster the bass unit so it crossed over properly, something Kans and 'Briks and KEF's own Concerto's using this mid unit never had
reading this fascinating thread , theres an extraordinary amount of members banned on it , must be very controversial !!!
Only because of the problems caused by two particular people, one posting without expressing things as "his opinion" and the other, who comes across as a patronising wind-up merchant, yet has so much he could share if only he came down off his high horse, put the "attitude" away and accepted there's more than one way to reach musical bliss and some people are further back down the road than he thinks he is.......
I was intrigued by that too, Phil, but I don't think they got banned just 'cos of the size of their speakers! :lol:
Something Ash said nearly two years ago, but still quite telling (I've seen the big active ATC's being calibrated.....)
".....There's no question that big speakers, properly designed, with hundreds of watts driving them are miles better than the best 6.5" two way or smaller. They can be staggeringly loud, clear and they can give a better front to back image than smaller ones too, although the left to right is about the same.
I don't like them with small amps, but then I don't like small amps and small amps are worse as speaker size increases.
And before Steve beats me up, I'd point out that making and calibrating big passive speakers properly, takes days and that the demand for them is miniscule...."
Terrible aint it..Cor i've never been banned on a fora ever :)Quote:
Originally Posted by hifinutt
Some people ehQuote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
Yes Big ATC require a lot of power but other speakers have a lot more sensitivity and are lot more eaiser to driveQuote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
In an attempt to answer Marco's question, I would say that A*I no longer have an interest in 'legacy' equipment. In fact, I don't believe they even service their own old kit. In Mr James' opinion, computer audio is the now and the future and they sell countless thousands of their computer speakers which are infinitely superior to anything else at any price, so why bother making anything else ?
This is what I have gleaned through the nastiness and arguments on another forum.:eek: