Amplifier advice for new Harbeth Compact 7s

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Originally Posted by Tim

I think the question is 'who says so', it's fine to express something if you have first hand knowledge and evidence to back it up, but anything else is just hearsay and not something I think AoS supports? It's certainly not something I would advocate.

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As I said, I use Harbeths day in day out. I think you are looking for an argument where there is no need for one here. Anything I say is from first hand experience; I've posted in detail about my experience with various amps on Harbeths on several threads recently, so I don't see the point of your negative comment. If you read back on the thread you'll see that I was defending Harbeths against some of Rob's comments. Enjoy you 5's and thanks for the details about your room.

No argument here Andrew, I just wanted to add a bit of balance from a 'non-trade' private owner perspective ;)

Now I'm off to deal with Rufus Wainwright

:cool:

I was given a pair of LS5/9's not long ago. I heard this particular pair in four locations and, quality of sound aside, the tonal balance changed out of all recognition. In an optimum location on high stands away from walls, they sounded stark and lean (AVI ADM lovers would appreciate this balance I think :)), at home on the Spendor 12" stands, they sounded thick, ploddy and with a "quack" in the upper mid. Up in the office on the desktop, they were big-n-beefy but so involving to listen to and lastly, in their current storage home, they sounded well balanced and lively, the Harbeth M30's (their drop-in replacement) sounding similar but smoother in the upper mid-crossover region.

My conclusion is really that the room is the final arbiter as long as the manufacturer does his bit to make the speakers as consistent as possible..

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Originally Posted by DSJR

My conclusion is really that the room is the final arbiter as long as the manufacturer does his bit to make the speakers as consistent as possible..

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Absolutely spot on, some manufacturers even design speakers to work well in English rooms :eyebrows: The Celestion SL6 springs to mind, designed to roll off below 60Hz but with the port assistance (out the back) it has a reasonably flat response to about 40Hz in room, IE an average English room.

You'll always get positioning problems with absolutely any speakers that can reproduce reasonably flat bass to frequencies below the lowest that the room modes allow. It's frequencies above the lowest room mode that prove problematical though as standing waves can mess things up, below that there can be no standing waves! What just about everyone fails to realise is that below the lowest room mode frequency the bass is clean. I'm fed up of nutters saying that it's inaudible below the lowest room mode, is it f*ck, it relies on pressure at low frequencies. You know, the bass cone pumps in & out & literally effects the atmospheric pressure in the room, not some wavelength that won't fit :D

Stick your head inside a speaker doing 16Hz at 100W (assuming 86Db/W/1M) or so & tell me that you don't turn the volume down as you'd damage your ears.

Honestly, saying a speaker can't go incredibly deep even in a small room is complete cobblers, it's like saying you couldn't hear 100Hz inside of a speaker with any dimension less than 82.5cm :rfl:


E2A:- Just thought of the most obvious one of the lot. If speakers can't reproduce deep bass in a room because of it's dimensions then how come you can hear 20Hz with headphones? The ear canal is only so long & nowhere near 10M :rfl:

So, anyone running a Supernait on C7s? ...

I have and the smaller Nait's on all the Harbeth range. They work well.

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Originally Posted by hifi_dave

I have and the smaller Nait's on all the Harbeth range. They work well.

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Any thoughts on a Supernait vs. an XS with a Flatcap XS?

I can't afford the Supernait AND an external power supply, but I can afford the Flatcap XS if I buy the XS integrated.

Appreciate your thoughts.

I run a 202/200/dual teddycap JJack; it does work well. I've been exploring all sorts of other options, but the itch I had was as much about room positioning as the amps themselves, and having switched around to a near-field monitor set-up with a wider distance between the speakers the Naims work very nicely. I recently bought some Unison Research amps which are cleaner, more extended, and more dynamic, but they don't gel with my vinyl set-up (I think it's my phono stage), so the Naims are back, at least for now, and I'm glad I didn't sell them because its reminded me how much I enjoy them, in spite of some limitations. I think the 202/200 sounds quite organic with the C7's; its about the right amount of power so it can do large scale orchestral when required. The lower bass and highs are rolled off, and this can lead to undue emphasis, but its actually quite a good compromise in the average domestic situation. A previous post about bass issues in average sized rooms was very pertinent here. (I should also qualify my previous post about 'room issues' and specify that any issues I have had have been specific not only to my room but my sources, and that I have made a lot of progress in sorting them out). There are endless and tedious debates on Supernait vs 202/200 on the forum that shall not be named. Perhaps Dave can add his opinion on which is best suited to C7's?

If you are thinking Naim-ways, do you have any chance of comparing, say, with the Croft range? I think they are potentially the best match I've heard, particularly if you can afford the 25R pre. I also think that if you are thinking of solid state integrated amps such as the Nait XS, I would highly recommend the Sonneteers (Alabaster and Orton). The Alabaster is a screaming bargain and the Orton is a bit special.

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Originally Posted by Elephantears

I run a 202/200/dual teddycap JJack; it does work well. I've been exploring all sorts of other options, but the itch I had was as much about room positioning as the amps themselves, and having switched around to a near-field monitor set-up with a wider distance between the speakers the Naims work very nicely. I recently bought some Unison Research amps which are cleaner, more extended, and more dynamic, but they don't gel with my vinyl set-up (I think it's my phono stage), so the Naims are back, at least for now, and I'm glad I didn't sell them because its reminded me how much I enjoy them, in spite of some limitations. I think the 202/200 sounds quite organic with the C7's; its about the right amount of power so it can do large scale orchestral when required. The lower bass and highs are rolled off, and this can lead to undue emphasis, but its actually quite a good compromise in the average domestic situation. A previous post about bass issues in average sized rooms was very pertinent here. (I should also qualify my previous post about 'room issues' and specify that any issues I have had have been specific not only to my room but my sources, and that I have made a lot of progress in sorting them out). There are endless and tedious debates on Supernait vs 202/200 on the forum that shall not be named. Perhaps Dave can add his opinion on which is best suited to C7's?

If you are thinking Naim-ways, do you have any chance of comparing, say, with the Croft range? I think they are potentially the best match I've heard, particularly if you can afford the 25R pre. I also think that if you are thinking of solid state integrated amps such as the Nait XS, I would highly recommend the Sonneteers (Alabaster and Orton). The Alabaster is a screaming bargain and the Orton is a bit special.

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Thanks. I've seen an occasional Croft pop up in the States but not the others. In any case I'd probably then be buying without even a chance of a demo as those would not be local, and might only be available used. CORRECTION: I just found US dealers for both of these. The regulated power Crofts would be an astonishing $5600 US for the pre/power, the regular 7 would be $2800 for both. The Sonneteer would be $2800 for the Alabaster, which is within reach. No audition possible howerver.

I've been reading the Naim forum but the fights get in the way of the analysis.

If I keep this XS on demo any longer I'll probably be buying it....

I do have a massive demo planned for this weekend, including two Luxmans, two more Naim combos, a Perraux, and an LFD. Maybe an Ayre and Audio Research if there's time.

We shall see.

That sounds like a serious solo bake-off and I'd be fascinated to hear the results. Is it a perreaux 150i? I've heard this with harbeths at planet of sound in Canada and its excellent. However it's very expensive in the uk.

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Originally Posted by Elephantears

That sounds like a serious solo bake-off and I'd be fascinated to hear the results. Is it a perreaux 150i? I've heard this with harbeths at planet of sound in Canada and its excellent. However it's very expensive in the uk.

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The Perreaux will be (I think) the 80i.

Out of this store audition I'll probably take home two finalists of contrasting takes.

I have to say that I'm intrigued by the Alabaster though, as the price is right, but I wouldn't have a chance to hear that one before I purchased.

I really like this Naim XS I've been auditioning now for a week. Quite possible that I end my search with the XS, but I'll have a bit of fun along the way,listening to other gear.

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Originally Posted by JJack

Let me put it this way: if I gave you my brand-new Harbeth Compact 7es-3s and awesome stands, and then I gave you up to 3000 pounds to buy an amp, what would you buy?

The winning answer will receive most of a pint of Guinness :cool: the next time I'm in the UK

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A Luxman integrated amplifier!

Croft is better than Luxman, but not dressed as well. In the UK, we call it "all fur coat and no knickers..." :D

Hi Rob,
Do you know why Tony eventually settled on Tannoys rather than 'statics?

Please help me to understand the point about earphones producing low frequencies. I understand that low bass signals have substantial wavelengths, so, given that, how can these frequencies be reproduced in such a small space?

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Originally Posted by Darren

Hi Rob,
Do you know why Tony eventually settled on Tannoys rather than 'statics?

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I think (well I know) that Tony holds the view that no single type of loudspeaker can do everything, so its simply a case of picking the compromise that best fits at the time, so perhaps 'settled' isn't the word. Sometimes that means running more than one system. I hold the same view.

I know he's heard 57s and 989s. I'll be playing some 63s when he visits next week (plus I have 57s here). Be interesting to see what he thinks.

Some loudspeakers are excellent in one or two areas and very competent overall, while others can have one stunning attribute but be quite poor in other areas. The latter group tend to be have the performance dictated by the music genre.

Rob

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Originally Posted by Darren

Hi Rob,
Do you know why Tony eventually settled on Tannoys rather than 'statics?

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He thought that the electrostats he heard had no bass.

That's true - 57s literally have no low bass. That can be a deal breaker and again goes back to music tastes to some degree. I'd put the 57 into the 'stunning and poor' group for those with wide tastes in music.
I've often sat listening to them and thought that reproduction just doesn't get any better than this, only to change music and.... oh dear!

Rob

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Originally Posted by RobHolt

I think (well I know) that Tony holds the view that no single type of loudspeaker can do everything, so its simply a case of picking the compromise that best fits at the time, so perhaps 'settled' isn't the word. Sometimes that means running more than one system. I hold the same view.

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As do I :)

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Darren

Please help me to understand the point about earphones producing low frequencies. I understand that low bass signals have substantial wavelengths, so, given that, how can these frequencies be reproduced in such a small space?

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Pressure... The headphone diaphram obviously moves backwards & forwards which increases & decreases the air pressure between the diaphram & the eardrum causing it to vibrate in sympathy. Ok so the wavelength won't fit in the same space but air pressure variations take over.

I guess that's how come you can hear an explosion, after all the wavelength will be incredibly long as it's a one way expanding pressure wave outwards from the point of origin? :scratch:

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Originally Posted by DSJR

Croft is better than Luxman, but not dressed as well. In the UK, we call it "all fur coat and no knickers..." :D

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???????????????????? :scratch:

While I've heard good things about Croft, I have never heard anything like this?? :wow:

To each their own I suppose, although I think it would be important to have heard the gear in question before making such a bold statement.

In any case, I'm aware of many folks who are running Harbeth speakers with Luxman amplification and believe it to be the best match. :D

Good luck with your search JJack.

Then you need to stop listening with your eyes and listen with your ears and heart :) It's already been done and the expensive blingy modern Luxman came a very poor second I recall, although it was the integrated model I recall... :D In terms of physical "feel" there'll be absolutely no contest, as the far eastern product will easily beat the little UK contender and in straight forward measurements too I suspect.

You have what seems to be an expensive system, so a mere £1500 on a couple of plain UK hand made amps with glowing things within and little else isn't going to float ones boat the same. However, an overweight and over-complex amp is what killed the Japanese top end onslaught over in these parts first time round..

Just my current views, and I'm known to be a bit mad even in my saner moments, but maybe US region things like the Bottlehead stuff, if it's as giant killing as I suspect it may be, may show you where I'm coming from, even if there may not be enough power for the M40's, which have a fair old crossover to row along within them :)

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Originally Posted by audio39

???????????????????? :scratch:

While I've heard good things about Croft, I have never heard anything like this?? :wow:

To each their own I suppose, although I think it would be important to have heard the gear in question before making such a bold statement.

In any case, I'm aware of many folks who are running Harbeth speakers with Luxman amplification and believe it to be the best match. :D

Good luck with your search JJack.

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Hmmmmmm, I'm listening to a Luxman 505u as I type these words, switching back and forth between that and a Naim Supernait.

Two very different sounds, but I think I could live with either of them for a long time. Frank Sinatra is currently leading the way with the Naim, but then I recall the Bach cello suites on the Luxman... it's good to have these kinds of "problems."

Also spent some quality time with a Luxman 550ax today.

As well as $30,000 worth of MBL driving Harbeth 40s. (Edit: I see you have the M40s - lucky man!)

Alas, the LFD was out on loan so I didn't get to hear that.

It's going to be a fun week demo-ing these two.

More to follow.

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Originally Posted by DSJR

Then you need to stop listening with your eyes and listen with your ears and heart :) It's already been done and the expensive blingy modern Luxman came a very poor second I recall, although it was the integrated model I recall... :D In terms of physical "feel" there'll be absolutely no contest, as the far eastern product will easily beat the little UK contender and in straight forward measurements too I suspect.

You have what seems to be an expensive system, so a mere £1500 on a couple of plain UK hand made amps with glowing things within and little else isn't going to float ones boat the same. However, an overweight and over-complex amp is what killed the Japanese top end onslaught over in these parts first time round..

Just my current views, and I'm known to be a bit mad even in my saner moments, but maybe US region things like the Bottlehead stuff, if it's as giant killing as I suspect it may be, may show you where I'm coming from, even if there may not be enough power for the M40's, which have a fair old crossover to row along within them :)

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I can't find a Croft to demo, but the Luxmans have something going on.

I would call the Luxman more of a throwback than "modern"; it's got a balance control, mono switch, old-fashioned power meters, headphone jack, etc. It's pretty much a circa 1970 receiver, with modern innards.

I'd have to say that I'd be pretty excited to hear anything that would be clearly better.

Also, the 1500 GBP amps cost $95 more than the Luxman on this side of the pond. (e.g., the Naim Supernait is the equivalent of 3300 GBP here, and the XS is 1800 GBP)

The Supernait is a throwback too, but I continue to maintain that a simple circuit, with the minimum of components (one valve taking the place of many transistors) can pay dividends to the sonics - and Glenn can do this using NO boutique bits at all...

The likes of Luxman and Accuphase do look the biz though and the fit, feel and finish of the casework is beyond excellent. Been there, done that back in the 70's though, and it's hairshirt for me these days :D

JJack its very hard to read your budget, since prices are so different either side of the Atlantic. Since you've mentioned Supernait it seems higher than before. Does that mean a Perraux 150i is feasible? Since you can't demo Croft or Sonneteer, that would be my pick, although I've never heard a Luxman.

What about the Croft Syntra that is for sale on this very forum? Would be a great match l reckon.:)

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Originally Posted by Elephantears

JJack its very hard to read your budget, since prices are so different either side of the Atlantic. Since you've mentioned Supernait it seems higher than before. Does that mean a Perraux 150i is feasible? Since you can't demo Croft or Sonneteer, that would be my pick, although I've never heard a Luxman.

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My budget is the same, but I found a demo Supernait that wouldn't cost much more than an XS.

But I'd be willing to stretch my budget a little if I found something extraordinary.

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Originally Posted by DSJR

The Supernait is a throwback too, but I continue to maintain that a simple circuit, with the minimum of components (one valve taking the place of many transistors) can pay dividends to the sonics - and Glenn can do this using NO boutique bits at all...

The likes of Luxman and Accuphase do look the biz though and the fit, feel and finish of the casework is beyond excellent. Been there, done that back in the 70's though, and it's hairshirt for me these days :D

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Are you thinking of an all-valve integrated, or a hybrid?

I just left the all-valve world (Cary) so I wouldn't go all-valve. I'm done with replacing power tubes every time the seasons change. Tube preamp sections (I still own a Conrad Johnson tube preamp) are okay because they're less fussy.

Is there a hybrid that you're thinking of?

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Originally Posted by Tarzan

What about the Croft Syntra that is for sale on this very forum? Would be a great match l reckon.:)

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One would think so ;)

For historical purposes, I'll just end this by noting that I've decided to go with the Luxman 505u.
It's the Swiss Army knife of integrateds: power meters, balance and tone controls, mono switch, built in MM or MC phono, RCA and balanced inputs, good power, - most importantly, it drives the Harbeths beautifully and never puts a foot wrong on the sonic front.
I will admit that it doesn't have the golden glow of SET amps, nor the pile-driving bass of a Krell, but it plays beautiful music nonetheless.

Thanks for keeping us up to date. Can you give us any details of what you compared it with at the last stage of the decision making process, and what swung it to the Luxman?

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Originally Posted by JJack

For historical purposes, I'll just end this by noting that I've decided to go with the Luxman 505u.
It's the Swiss Army knife of integrateds: power meters, balance and tone controls, mono switch, built in MM or MC phono, RCA and balanced inputs, good power, - most importantly, it drives the Harbeths beautifully and never puts a foot wrong on the sonic front.
I will admit that it doesn't have the golden glow of SET amps, nor the pile-driving bass of a Krell, but it plays beautiful music nonetheless.

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I'm certain you'll be very happy with the Lux...it's one of those products that tends to get folks off the upgrade merry-go-round!

Please keep us in the loop.

Rick.

P.S. I do really enjoy my big Harbeths...take the hop, ship and jump to Ottawa and have a listen and a beer!! :lol:

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Originally Posted by audio39

I'm certain you'll be very happy with the Lux...it's one of those products that tends to get folks off the upgrade merry-go-round!

Please keep us in the loop.

Rick.

P.S. I do really enjoy my big Harbeths...take the hop, ship and jump to Ottawa and have a listen and a beer!! :lol:

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I will do that if I find myself heading that way, thanks.

I did have a nice 90 minute listen to the M40s at the dealer. Here's the amazing thing: I'm looking at those massive woofers and I'm thinking: "this is gonna be thick in the lower mids" - but then it was ast and clean through the lower ranges, everything nicely segregated, well done but not overdone.

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Originally Posted by Elephantears

Thanks for keeping us up to date. Can you give us any details of what you compared it with at the last stage of the decision making process, and what swung it to the Luxman?

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I was also considering the Nait XS with outboard phono and power supply, and the Supernait.

First off: I could live happily with any of them and not look back. I was looking for "musical" amps, and all three satisfy that need.

The Supernait was available at a discount price as a demo, but even with that it was going to be too expensive, especially after adding phono.

I actually loved the Nait XS and power supply (supercap?). Ultimately, I decided that I wanted more than even 60 good Naim watts could give me, and I wanted to avoid getting bitten any further by the upgrade bug, which is especially inherent in Naim products. The Luxman gave me that 3-4 db more headroom, a bit cleaner/clearer sound, but still kept the musicality.

Also, after extensive demos, I found that I can to rely on the power meters (I know they are approximations) as both an analytical tool and a reminder not to push the system too hard.

The Lux will give you pride in ownership and the fit and feel of the controls will be second to none. I suspect it'll clip more gracefully than any Naim as well, which, on the modern ones I've heard, sound fine until they let go, ipon which all the harsh nasties return with a vengeance.

Me? I'd sooner have a Quad 909 and get it recapped with better caps, or a pair of Albarry's (oops, shilling for my mate again ;)), but then, I went the bling route decades ago and came out the other side :D

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Originally Posted by DSJR

(oops, shilling for my mate again ;)

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A shilling won't get you much these days. Back when I were a lad, a shilling would buy you two seats at the cinema, three pints of beer, a fish supper, and money for a taxi home.

Or a 'knee-trembler' up the back of an alley! :eyebrows:

Marco.

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Originally Posted by Marco

Or a 'knee-trembler' up the back of an alley! :eyebrows:

Marco.

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Marco! Pull your trousers up mate; your misspent youth is showing.:eek::D

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Originally Posted by Marco

Or a 'knee-trembler' up the back of an alley! :eyebrows:

Marco.

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Nah. That was free!

Indeed, but sometimes the MILFs wanted a bit more to make up for it if they got caught! :D

Marco.